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Featured Doctrinal Origin from Pope Gregory I

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Swordman007, Jan 11, 2021.

  1. Original Happy Camper

    Original Happy Camper One of GODS Children I am a historicist Supporter

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    What about this verse in the WORD OF GOD seeing as how you have not mentioned JESUS in the above post.

    John 14:6
    Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

    Please support your position from the WORD OF GOD not man
     
  2. Original Happy Camper

    Original Happy Camper One of GODS Children I am a historicist Supporter

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    Matthew 15:9
    But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

    Isaiah 8:20
    To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2021 at 5:53 AM
  3. Valletta

    Valletta Active Member

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    A discipline can be changed any time, it was in the media not long ago about the Church considering allowing married priests in a remote area where there are not enough priests. You see a discipline can attempt to emulate the actions of our Lord. Now as our one High Priest Jesus did not marry. Jesus also fasted, so the Church has rules for fasting. How much and in what circumstances can change. You don't want people who are starving to death to have to fast, so there may be areas in the world where this is dispensed. That's a discipline. An example of Catholic teaching that cannot be changed is recognizing three Persons in one God.
    The Word of God cannot be changed, what is not the Word of God can be changed. When Jesus renamed Simon as Rock and gave Rock the keys to the kingdom this did not mean Rock (Peter) could change the teachings of Jesus. Neither King James or Luther or anyone else has the authority to change God's Word.
     
  4. Swordman007

    Swordman007 Truth Seeker

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    This is your way of responding to a sincere question? I mean, when we do a comparison between God's dealings with doctrines and practices with Israel, He didn't continue adding to them over the centuries for the Jews. They remained constant and never changing, never being added to, but the RCC has a history of new doctrines, dogmas and practices added through their short history. I'm just trying to figure out why the difference now as compared to then.
     
  5. Swordman007

    Swordman007 Truth Seeker

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    Well, I had since already corrected myself by saying that the official declaration of it being a doctrine was made in the sixth century, and made a dogma much, much later.

    I'm not surprised that someone way back then could easily brow beat the mostly illiterate crowds into believing all manner of heresy. We have no excuses today.

    Well, I wouldn't say it has "always part of the deposit of faith." I don't see the apostles making reference to it anywhere, although I have read some people's attempts at injecting that concept into what they seem to see as nuance. In other words, the claim that Jesus' reference to what would not be forgiven in this world "or the next world to come," as some sort of non-specific naming of a place that is specific. That's a nuance, and when I read other scriptures where the same expression is used, and in the same grammatical construct, it refers to Heaven, not some half-way, in between place of purging.

    So, I hope you can appreciate my search through all this, and picking the minds of others to see if there are any nuggets of gold to be found.
     
  6. Valletta

    Valletta Active Member

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    You have to take Holy Scripture in the both the context of everything said AND specifically what the writer was trying to convey. To someone unfamiliar in approaching the Bible this way there are many passages which upon first glance would appear to contradict other passages. I assure you that when the Catholic Church chose the 73 books of the Bible any book that was not 100% in keeping with Catholic teaching was rejected. The Bible is the book of the Catholic Church.
     
  7. Swordman007

    Swordman007 Truth Seeker

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    I did that a year or so ago about other questions, and some folks took it personal, so that's why I took it here. I knew some adherents would find this eventually, and perhaps tone down some with the realization we're not in their sacred area. I don't like walking on egg shells.
     
  8. Valletta

    Valletta Active Member

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    You were there? Keep in mind the Catholic Church was in existence before one word of the New Testament was written. The Deposit of the Faith pre-dates the New Testament. When the Church chose the books of the Bible anything that was not 100 percent in keeping with Catholic teaching was rejected. That doesn't mean the Bible contains a detailed explanation of everything to your satisfaction. For example, the Trinity may not be evident to a casual reader.
     
  9. Swordman007

    Swordman007 Truth Seeker

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    So, does that mean we can't read the catholic writings for what they say, understand what we read about their stance, and therefore need someone to interpret for us in the place of the writings themselves?

    To me, that seems to suggest that the writers of those catechisms and other doctrinal statements didn't say what they meant, or were purposefully cryptic in language so as to leave wiggle room for future (clearing of throat) "clarifications" in the event of difficulties arising at some future point. Mormonism has mastered that art form, along with the Watchtower Society.

    So, I would hope that you're not unintentionally suggesting that in relation to catholic writings.
     
  10. Swordman007

    Swordman007 Truth Seeker

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    Oh, my. I have to say that I much prefer to look only to Christ Jesus rather than to think that I must do things on my part to allegedly make up for what some think is a lack in the power of the Blood of Christ Jesus. I couldn't enter into a system of works when I read the scriptures for what they say, and avoid all the stuff out there that many use to try and fill in the white spaces of the text to try and make them say what they clearly don't say.
     
  11. Swag365

    Swag365 Well-Known Member

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    I never sought to prove the doctrine of purgatory to you. Believe it or reject it. It makes no difference to me whatsoever. My post only sought to correct a false representation of what the Catholic Church teaches.
     
  12. Swordman007

    Swordman007 Truth Seeker

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    I hope you don't mind, then, that I currently will stick with the biblical teaching that that the blood of Christ Jesus is sufficient to cleanse me from ALL unrighteousness, making me pure and clean, and, as the scriptures declare, I am the "righteousness of God" in Christ Jesus. It was imputed to me, as the Bible teaches, not something earned on my part. It was all Jesus (Yeshua for those who prefer that name).
     
  13. Swordman007

    Swordman007 Truth Seeker

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    Wow. That seems grossly unfair. Why would they maintain that only against those who are already priests? Have they ever explained that?
     
  14. LightLoveHope

    LightLoveHope Jesus leads us to life

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    A religion that supports paying for entry into heaven, has to justify itself by a theology that makes this possible. You love Bill, he was a confused lost soul but came to church. He is now in the balance, and if you pay for masses to be said, he will earn enough to get over the line.

    Asceticism is appealing, I am such a sinner I must punish myself to pay the price, to cleanse and purify myself and then I will overcome the issue. It relies on this idea we are as we are, with our path we walk, which can be shifted one way or the other through ceremonies and sacraments. Eat Jesus daily and you will be ok, plead for the issues that plague you, and it will be settled.

    If this can be done while we see through faith the spiritual world, why not project the same struggle into the life after death with the same equations.

    Jesus preaches a break with the world through repentance in this world and walking the straight path, neither left nor right, with Him, is being in the Kingdom. Those in the Kingdom do not stray or go off track, they keep on through. But this picture suggests as Paul says at the end you are either found in Jesus or lost, no other outcomes. In a sense this is the land of grey, learning the walk, learning the way and being vessels of His grace and love to the world.

    Purgatory belongs to a different faith and belief system, and is the fruit of this alternative faith.

    God bless you
     
  15. Swag365

    Swag365 Well-Known Member

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    I did not write that.

    Incorrect. There is nothing in the Catholic doctrine of purgatory that asserts that there is "a lack in the power of the Blood of Christ Jesus". That is something that anti-Catholics say to virtue-signal and feel good about themselves, just like the how the pharisees loved to boast about their piety. They attempt to put others down to feel good about themselves, and that is quite pathetic. And by the way, the Scriptures that you profess to rely on, you would not even know what they are, except for the Catholic Church telling you so.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2021 at 7:19 AM
  16. Swag365

    Swag365 Well-Known Member

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    Incorrect. The Lord disciplines those he loves. There is nothing contrary to the gospel about a cleansing punishment.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2021 at 7:19 AM
  17. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

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    Normally the choir is in harmony with the preacher however in this case it would seem the OP's position is in contention. Preaching can be to edify but also to challenge, the former is welcomed in the "One Bread, One Body" forum and the latter is reportable. @Swordman007 choosing to post in the controversial forum implictly means he wishes to challenge the doctrine in the OP, not agree with it.
     
  18. Swordman007

    Swordman007 Truth Seeker

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    You continue to swing your battle ax rather than to simply discuss the merits of the questions posed.

    Are you referring to the ROMAN catholic church? I too am catholic, just not ROMAN catholic.

    True. Now, if I may, there is another CLEAR teaching in the Bible that needs no explanation because of the clarity of its meaning:

    [1 John 2:26-27] 26 These [things] have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of ALL things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. [emphasis mine]

    So, that's why I am only here to try and dredge up any potential gems or nuggets of gold that I may have missed while panning the river of this subject. Jesus didn't have much of anything positive about the traditions of men, but always made reference to "It is written...," even when confronted by Satan. Rather than match wits, Jesus ONLY made reference to what is written in scripture. He did not make appeals to traditions, practices, dogmas or anything else.

    Just wanted you to understand that the standard by which I apply any and all acid tests for teachings, doctrines, commands, traditions, et al are gauged against what it written in scripture. If it ain't in scripture, it ain't God's position on the given subject, just as nothing was added to the Torah over the centuries regardless of what the people may have believed about other things. The Lord never, at any time, allowed for additions. The Jews, however, DID write other things that thy mistakenly held up as traditions, and enforced them as if they had been commanded by God, and Jesus thoroughly chastised them for that.
     
  19. LightLoveHope

    LightLoveHope Jesus leads us to life

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    "Rank nonsense"

    Thank you for putting yourself into the dismissive group of dictators of belief and faith.
    The Lord disciplines His people not the lost, and disciplining the lost counts for little.
    Cleansing punishment is not a biblical concept.
    Sack cloth and ashes to show repentance and a change of heart or making restitution for theft is.

    On a psychological scale training oneself with reward and punishment objectives has benefits, but can just be manipulation rather than a real life changing experience. There are too many stories of self punishing monks who at the same time abused others, so their approach did not help them or others at all, rather it obscured the unresolved issues they failed to tackle.

    It is one reason I sincerely oppose celibacy for church officials as it leads to immorality and failure because there is not a healthy outlet for desire and companionship, which is innate in most people, and exalting devotion above the reality of how people can actually live. The sexual abuse scandals is founded on this false belief priests are above such things. And the reason it was hidden was to maintain this false image.

    God bless you
     
  20. Swag365

    Swag365 Well-Known Member

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    This demonstrates that you do not understand what the Catholic Church teaches. The Church teaches that those in purgatory have been saved from the fires of hell. They are not "the lost".

    Incorrect. You can see the concept in the Bible, right here:

    3 Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted. 4 In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5 And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons?

    “My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
    nor be weary when reproved by him.
    6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
    and chastises every son whom he receives.”

    7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. 11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
     
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