Doctrinal Origin from Pope Gregory I

Original Happy Camper

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Beliefs of the Church do not become formal doctrine until clearly defined by the Pope. On the other hand, no Pope has ever formally defined any doctrine that had not been accepted by the Church from the very beginning. This is the case with Purgatory. The Catholic Church believed and taught from apostolic times that (1) only the spiritually pure can enter Heaven; and (2) only those who reject God and choose evil will go to Hell. However, most human beings do not fit into either of those categories. Most humans make an effort to live decent lives, but still behave in some ways that God would not approve of. Therefore, common sense requires that God must provide a means of final purification where people who are spiritually/morally imperfect, yet have not rejected or ignored God, can experience final purification (purgation) before entering Heaven.

What about this verse in the WORD OF GOD seeing as how you have not mentioned JESUS in the above post.

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Please support your position from the WORD OF GOD not man
 
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Original Happy Camper

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Matthew 15:9
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Isaiah 8:20
To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
 
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Valletta

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Sounds like a double standard to fit the occasion.
A discipline can be changed any time, it was in the media not long ago about the Church considering allowing married priests in a remote area where there are not enough priests. You see a discipline can attempt to emulate the actions of our Lord. Now as our one High Priest Jesus did not marry. Jesus also fasted, so the Church has rules for fasting. How much and in what circumstances can change. You don't want people who are starving to death to have to fast, so there may be areas in the world where this is dispensed. That's a discipline. An example of Catholic teaching that cannot be changed is recognizing three Persons in one God.
The Word of God cannot be changed, what is not the Word of God can be changed. When Jesus renamed Simon as Rock and gave Rock the keys to the kingdom this did not mean Rock (Peter) could change the teachings of Jesus. Neither King James or Luther or anyone else has the authority to change God's Word.
 
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Swordman007

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Why doesn't God just send us all to Heaven? God's ways are far above our ways.

This is your way of responding to a sincere question? I mean, when we do a comparison between God's dealings with doctrines and practices with Israel, He didn't continue adding to them over the centuries for the Jews. They remained constant and never changing, never being added to, but the RCC has a history of new doctrines, dogmas and practices added through their short history. I'm just trying to figure out why the difference now as compared to then.
 
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Swordman007

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You seem to have the idea that that there being no record of something being definitively taught prior to a certain time means that it wasn't taught at all prior to that time, and that is a logical error.

Well, I had since already corrected myself by saying that the official declaration of it being a doctrine was made in the sixth century, and made a dogma much, much later.

Another example is the Arian heresy, which denied the divinity of Christ. Arius was a very intelligent guy who used the Scriptures very effectively to support his idea that Jesus is a created being, not co-eternal with the Father. A huge portion of Christendom came to believe him, until, at Council of Nicea, the Church definitively declared that Jesus is consubstantial and coeternal with the Father. It wasn't a new idea, it was what had always been believed, but it had never been stated explicitly before because no one had ever denied it.

I'm not surprised that someone way back then could easily brow beat the mostly illiterate crowds into believing all manner of heresy. We have no excuses today.

So no, the doctrine of Purgatory was not invented in the late 6th Century. It was always part of the deposit of faith. There are numerous ancient references to it, some of which have been given to you by Mitchie.

Well, I wouldn't say it has "always part of the deposit of faith." I don't see the apostles making reference to it anywhere, although I have read some people's attempts at injecting that concept into what they seem to see as nuance. In other words, the claim that Jesus' reference to what would not be forgiven in this world "or the next world to come," as some sort of non-specific naming of a place that is specific. That's a nuance, and when I read other scriptures where the same expression is used, and in the same grammatical construct, it refers to Heaven, not some half-way, in between place of purging.

So, I hope you can appreciate my search through all this, and picking the minds of others to see if there are any nuggets of gold to be found.
 
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Valletta

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Sounds like second chance theology to me. Bible scripture would help in this conversation if you have some to support purification after death.

Example

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

that is plain scripture refuting your second chance theology
You have to take Holy Scripture in the both the context of everything said AND specifically what the writer was trying to convey. To someone unfamiliar in approaching the Bible this way there are many passages which upon first glance would appear to contradict other passages. I assure you that when the Catholic Church chose the 73 books of the Bible any book that was not 100% in keeping with Catholic teaching was rejected. The Bible is the book of the Catholic Church.
 
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Swordman007

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The one sensible thing Albion has contributed to this discussion is to suggest the following: "It is actually more complicated than most people suspect, even Catholics. But because this is a purely Roman Catholic doctrine, you might help yourself by taking your question straight to the Catholic forum here. "One Bread, One Body" is its name."

I did that a year or so ago about other questions, and some folks took it personal, so that's why I took it here. I knew some adherents would find this eventually, and perhaps tone down some with the realization we're not in their sacred area. I don't like walking on egg shells.
 
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Valletta

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Well, I wouldn't say it has "always part of the deposit of faith." I don't see the apostles making reference to it anywhere, although I have read some people's attempts at injecting that concept into what they seem to see as nuance. In other words, the claim that Jesus' reference to what would not be forgiven in this world "or the next world to come," as some sort of non-specific naming of a place that is specific. That's a nuance, and when I read other scriptures where the same expression is used, and in the same grammatical construct, it refers to Heaven, not some half-way, in between place of purging.
So, I hope you can appreciate my search through all this, and picking the minds of others to see if there are any nuggets of gold to be found.
You were there? Keep in mind the Catholic Church was in existence before one word of the New Testament was written. The Deposit of the Faith pre-dates the New Testament. When the Church chose the books of the Bible anything that was not 100 percent in keeping with Catholic teaching was rejected. That doesn't mean the Bible contains a detailed explanation of everything to your satisfaction. For example, the Trinity may not be evident to a casual reader.
 
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Swordman007

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I suggest that if anyone here is interested in learning about what the Catholic Church teaches, please go to her official documents (e.g. Florence, Trent, the Roman Catechism, the current catechism), rather than listening to the ramblings of ex-Catholics with their own pet theories about what the "historical doctrine" of the Church was.

So, does that mean we can't read the catholic writings for what they say, understand what we read about their stance, and therefore need someone to interpret for us in the place of the writings themselves?

To me, that seems to suggest that the writers of those catechisms and other doctrinal statements didn't say what they meant, or were purposefully cryptic in language so as to leave wiggle room for future (clearing of throat) "clarifications" in the event of difficulties arising at some future point. Mormonism has mastered that art form, along with the Watchtower Society.

So, I would hope that you're not unintentionally suggesting that in relation to catholic writings.
 
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Swordman007

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I agree with you, but remember that the church which invented Purgatory doesn't think in terms of a coming to the Faith as a conversion experience. Grace is doled out, sin compromises it, confession to a priest restores the state of grace, you build up your prospects of salvation by performing works of charity or doing church-appointed devotions, and so on through life.

Oh, my. I have to say that I much prefer to look only to Christ Jesus rather than to think that I must do things on my part to allegedly make up for what some think is a lack in the power of the Blood of Christ Jesus. I couldn't enter into a system of works when I read the scriptures for what they say, and avoid all the stuff out there that many use to try and fill in the white spaces of the text to try and make them say what they clearly don't say.
 
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Swag365

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Your replies on this thread all refer those watching to man made councils or doctrines you have yet to quote the WORD OF GOD only refer us to the RCC publications.
I never sought to prove the doctrine of purgatory to you. Believe it or reject it. It makes no difference to me whatsoever. My post only sought to correct a false representation of what the Catholic Church teaches.
 
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Swordman007

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Beliefs of the Church do not become formal doctrine until clearly defined by the Pope. On the other hand, no Pope has ever formally defined any doctrine that had not been accepted by the Church from the very beginning. This is the case with Purgatory. The Catholic Church believed and taught from apostolic times that (1) only the spiritually pure can enter Heaven; and (2) only those who reject God and choose evil will go to Hell. However, most human beings do not fit into either of those categories. Most humans make an effort to live decent lives, but still behave in some ways that God would not approve of. Therefore, common sense requires that God must provide a means of final purification where people who are spiritually/morally imperfect, yet have not rejected or ignored God, can experience final purification (purgation) before entering Heaven.

I hope you don't mind, then, that I currently will stick with the biblical teaching that that the blood of Christ Jesus is sufficient to cleanse me from ALL unrighteousness, making me pure and clean, and, as the scriptures declare, I am the "righteousness of God" in Christ Jesus. It was imputed to me, as the Bible teaches, not something earned on my part. It was all Jesus (Yeshua for those who prefer that name).
 
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LightLoveHope

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Sounds like second chance theology to me. Bible scripture would help in this conversation if you have some to support purification after death.

Example

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

that is plain scripture refuting your second chance theology

A religion that supports paying for entry into heaven, has to justify itself by a theology that makes this possible. You love Bill, he was a confused lost soul but came to church. He is now in the balance, and if you pay for masses to be said, he will earn enough to get over the line.

Asceticism is appealing, I am such a sinner I must punish myself to pay the price, to cleanse and purify myself and then I will overcome the issue. It relies on this idea we are as we are, with our path we walk, which can be shifted one way or the other through ceremonies and sacraments. Eat Jesus daily and you will be ok, plead for the issues that plague you, and it will be settled.

If this can be done while we see through faith the spiritual world, why not project the same struggle into the life after death with the same equations.

Jesus preaches a break with the world through repentance in this world and walking the straight path, neither left nor right, with Him, is being in the Kingdom. Those in the Kingdom do not stray or go off track, they keep on through. But this picture suggests as Paul says at the end you are either found in Jesus or lost, no other outcomes. In a sense this is the land of grey, learning the walk, learning the way and being vessels of His grace and love to the world.

Purgatory belongs to a different faith and belief system, and is the fruit of this alternative faith.

God bless you
 
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Swag365

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So, does that mean we can't read the catholic writings for what they say, understand what we read about their stance, and therefore need someone to interpret for us in the place of the writings themselves?
I did not write that.

Oh, my. I have to say that I much prefer to look only to Christ Jesus rather than to think that I must do things on my part to allegedly make up for what some think is a lack in the power of the Blood of Christ Jesus. I couldn't enter into a system of works when I read the scriptures for what they say, and avoid all the stuff out there that many use to try and fill in the white spaces of the text to try and make them say what they clearly don't say.
Incorrect. There is nothing in the Catholic doctrine of purgatory that asserts that there is "a lack in the power of the Blood of Christ Jesus". That is something that anti-Catholics say to virtue-signal and feel good about themselves, just like the how the pharisees loved to boast about their piety. They attempt to put others down to feel good about themselves, and that is quite pathetic. And by the way, the Scriptures that you profess to rely on, you would not even know what they are, except for the Catholic Church telling you so.
 
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Swag365

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A religion that supports paying for entry into heaven, has to justify itself by a theology that makes this possible. You love Bill, he was a confused lost soul but came to church. He is now in the balance, and if you pay for masses to be said, he will earn enough to get over the line.

Asceticism is appealing, I am such a sinner I must punish myself to pay the price, to cleanse and purify myself and then I will overcome the issue. It relies on this idea we are as we are, with our path we walk, which can be shifted one way or the other through ceremonies and sacraments. Eat Jesus daily and you will be ok, plead for the issues that plague you, and it will be settled.

If this can be done while we see through faith the spiritual world, why not project the same struggle into the life after death with the same equations.

Jesus preaches a break with the world through repentance in this world and walking the straight path, neither left nor right, with Him, is being in the Kingdom. Those in the Kingdom do not stray or go off track, they keep on through. But this picture suggests as Paul says at the end you are either found in Jesus or lost, no other outcomes. In a sense this is the land of grey, learning the walk, learning the way and being vessels of His grace and love to the world.

Purgatory belongs to a different faith and belief system, and is the fruit of this alternative faith.

God bless you
Incorrect. The Lord disciplines those he loves. There is nothing contrary to the gospel about a cleansing punishment.
 
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DamianWarS

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I appreciate that he is willing to post his thoughts on this thread, he appears not to want to preach to the choir.
Normally the choir is in harmony with the preacher however in this case it would seem the OP's position is in contention. Preaching can be to edify but also to challenge, the former is welcomed in the "One Bread, One Body" forum and the latter is reportable. @Swordman007 choosing to post in the controversial forum implictly means he wishes to challenge the doctrine in the OP, not agree with it.
 
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Swordman007

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You were there?

You continue to swing your battle ax rather than to simply discuss the merits of the questions posed.

Keep in mind the Catholic Church was in existence before one word of the New Testament was written. The Deposit of the Faith pre-dates the New Testament.

Are you referring to the ROMAN catholic church? I too am catholic, just not ROMAN catholic.

When the Church chose the books of the Bible anything that was not 100 percent in keeping with Catholic teaching was rejected. That doesn't mean the Bible contains a detailed explanation of everything to your satisfaction. For example, the Trinity may not be evident to a casual reader.

True. Now, if I may, there is another CLEAR teaching in the Bible that needs no explanation because of the clarity of its meaning:

[1 John 2:26-27] 26 These [things] have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of ALL things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. [emphasis mine]

So, that's why I am only here to try and dredge up any potential gems or nuggets of gold that I may have missed while panning the river of this subject. Jesus didn't have much of anything positive about the traditions of men, but always made reference to "It is written...," even when confronted by Satan. Rather than match wits, Jesus ONLY made reference to what is written in scripture. He did not make appeals to traditions, practices, dogmas or anything else.

Just wanted you to understand that the standard by which I apply any and all acid tests for teachings, doctrines, commands, traditions, et al are gauged against what it written in scripture. If it ain't in scripture, it ain't God's position on the given subject, just as nothing was added to the Torah over the centuries regardless of what the people may have believed about other things. The Lord never, at any time, allowed for additions. The Jews, however, DID write other things that thy mistakenly held up as traditions, and enforced them as if they had been commanded by God, and Jesus thoroughly chastised them for that.
 
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LightLoveHope

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Rank nonsense. The Lord disciplines those he loves. There is nothing contrary to the gospel about a cleansing punishment.

"Rank nonsense"

Thank you for putting yourself into the dismissive group of dictators of belief and faith.
The Lord disciplines His people not the lost, and disciplining the lost counts for little.
Cleansing punishment is not a biblical concept.
Sack cloth and ashes to show repentance and a change of heart or making restitution for theft is.

On a psychological scale training oneself with reward and punishment objectives has benefits, but can just be manipulation rather than a real life changing experience. There are too many stories of self punishing monks who at the same time abused others, so their approach did not help them or others at all, rather it obscured the unresolved issues they failed to tackle.

It is one reason I sincerely oppose celibacy for church officials as it leads to immorality and failure because there is not a healthy outlet for desire and companionship, which is innate in most people, and exalting devotion above the reality of how people can actually live. The sexual abuse scandals is founded on this false belief priests are above such things. And the reason it was hidden was to maintain this false image.

God bless you
 
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Swag365

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The Lord disciplines His people not the lost,
This demonstrates that you do not understand what the Catholic Church teaches. The Church teaches that those in purgatory have been saved from the fires of hell. They are not "the lost".

and disciplining them counts for little. Cleansing punishment is not a biblical concept.
Incorrect. You can see the concept in the Bible, right here:

3 Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted. 4 In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5 And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons?

“My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
nor be weary when reproved by him.
6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and chastises every son whom he receives.”

7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. 11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
 
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