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Featured Doctrinal Origin from Pope Gregory I

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Swordman007, Jan 11, 2021.

  1. Swordman007

    Swordman007 Truth Seeker

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    You know, that's an interesting thought. There are two roman catholic priests in my city who have wives and children, so you may very well be correct. I forgot about them until now. However, isn't it true that, years ago, they would never have been allowed to become priests while being married?
     
  2. Swordman007

    Swordman007 Truth Seeker

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    Doesn't that introduce some measure of doubt in the origin and stability of the RCC beliefs and teachings and practices? I don't recall the Lord ever implementing changes to the requirements of the Levite priest, nor of the Aaronic priests and the fires they were authorized to burn unto the Lord. I recall the two brothers who burned "strange fires" at the temple because of their not being true priests unto the Lord, but only sons of priests, and the Lord struck them dead. Why would not the Lord be just as stable with any and all requirements originating from Him now and in the recent past for all doctrines and practices in the RCC if they are indeed from Him?
     
  3. Swordman007

    Swordman007 Truth Seeker

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    The occurrences of the Greek grammar translated in reference to "the world to come" is not a reference to some place called "purgatory" or any other place of cleansing.

    I say that because the same grammar also appears in Mark 10:30, Luke 18:30, Heb. 2:5 and Heb. 6:5. They all refer to eternity in Heaven.
     
  4. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    I agree with you, but remember that the church which invented Purgatory doesn't think in terms of a coming to the Faith as a conversion experience. Grace is doled out, sin compromises it, confession to a priest restores the state of grace, you build up your prospects of salvation by performing works of charity or doing church-appointed devotions, and so on through life.

    My apologies for that. It's just a term that refers to the church as it was while the Apostles whom Christ called and commissioned to lead the church were still alive. That would be until somewhere near the end of the first century AD.
     
  5. chilehed

    chilehed Veteran

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    The best thing to do for all such questions is to first consult the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

    You seem to have the idea that that there being no record of something being definitively taught prior to a certain time means that it wasn't taught at all prior to that time, and that is a logical error. If something is so widely believed that no one really talks about it then you're not going to find much written about it, especially in a culture that relies heavily in oral teaching like that of 1st Century Palestine.

    And even today... I bet that if you try to find historical records for people teaching that marriage by definition cannot exist between two men or two women, you won't find a single example prior to... let's be extremely generous and say 1980. And now you see people having to say it all over the place. Does that mean that the idea was invented in the late 20th Century? Not at all! No one had to start talking about it until there were a significant number of people denying it.

    Another example is the Arian heresy, which denied the divinity of Christ. Arius was a very intelligent guy who used the Scriptures very effectively to support his idea that Jesus is a created being, not co-eternal with the Father. A huge portion of Christendom came to believe him, until, at Council of Nicea, the Church definitively declared that Jesus is consubstantial and coeternal with the Father. It wasn't a new idea, it was what had always been believed, but it had never been stated explicitly before because no one had ever denied it.

    So no, the doctrine of Purgatory was not invented in the late 6th Century. It was always part of the deposit of faith. There are numerous ancient references to it, some of which have been given to you by Mitchie.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2021
  6. chevyontheriver

    chevyontheriver Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The one sensible thing Albion has contributed to this discussion is to suggest the following: "It is actually more complicated than most people suspect, even Catholics. But because this is a purely Roman Catholic doctrine, you might help yourself by taking your question straight to the Catholic forum here. "One Bread, One Body" is its name."
     
  7. Swag365

    Swag365 Well-Known Member

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    No, the Catholic Church has never defined as doctrine purgatory as you describe above. Much of what you wrote fell into the realm of individual theological speculation, and was never taught as the official doctrine binding on the church. To quote the council of Trent:

    Twenty-Fifth Session of the Council of Trent | EWTN

    The more difficult and subtle questions, however, and those that do not make for edification and from which there is for the most part no increase in piety, are to be excluded from popular instructions to uneducated people.[3] Likewise, things that are uncertain or that have the appearance of falsehood they shall not permit to be made known publicly and discussed. But those things that tend to a certain kind of curiosity or superstition, or that savor of filthy lucre, they shall prohibit as scandals and stumbling-blocks to the faithful.

    Much of what you wrote falls into "the certain kind of curiosity or superstition, or that savor of filthy lucre" that Trent officially prohibited from being taught, some 500 years ago.

    What happens is that people have difficulty objecting to what the Catholic Church actually teaches, so they create straw men, like you have done here, and then attack the straw-man. It is a shameful thing.

    I suggest that if anyone here is interested in learning about what the Catholic Church teaches, please go to her official documents (e.g. Florence, Trent, the Roman Catechism, the current catechism), rather than listening to the ramblings of ex-Catholics with their own pet theories about what the "historical doctrine" of the Church was.
     
  8. Swag365

    Swag365 Well-Known Member

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    Rank nonsense. The Nicene Creed refers to "one holy catholic and apostolic Church" and was written centuries after the death of the last apostle.
     
  9. PaulCyp1

    PaulCyp1 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Beliefs of the Church do not become formal doctrine until clearly defined by the Pope. On the other hand, no Pope has ever formally defined any doctrine that had not been accepted by the Church from the very beginning. This is the case with Purgatory. The Catholic Church believed and taught from apostolic times that (1) only the spiritually pure can enter Heaven; and (2) only those who reject God and choose evil will go to Hell. However, most human beings do not fit into either of those categories. Most humans make an effort to live decent lives, but still behave in some ways that God would not approve of. Therefore, common sense requires that God must provide a means of final purification where people who are spiritually/morally imperfect, yet have not rejected or ignored God, can experience final purification (purgation) before entering Heaven.
     
  10. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    While I do not accept the doctrine of Purgatory, the idea behind Purgatory didn't appear out from no where. We see at least as early as St. Augustine at least some in the Western Church speculating on the subject,

    "It is a matter that may be inquired into, and either ascertained or left doubtful, whether some believers shall pass through a kind of purgatorial fire, and in proportion as they have loved with more or less devotion the goods that perish, be less or more quickly delivered from it." - St. Augustine of Hippo, The Handbook on Faith, Hope, and Love aka The Enchiridion of St. Augustine, ch. 69

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  11. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

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    I take @Swordman007 wishes to discuss this beyond the scope the "One Bread, One Body" forum can provide
     
  12. Valletta

    Valletta Active Member

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    Do not assume it is a place. It's just a word for the purifying that takes place before we enter Heaven.
     
  13. Valletta

    Valletta Active Member

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    That's true, Augustine wrestled with thoughts about purgatory. I have provided a quotation from a sermon of his below: Remember, the choosing of what books to read at mass, and the Church choosing the 73 books of the Bible, took centuries. People disagreed. The first list of today's NT (and it is in the same order of books today as well) is not found until the mid 300!

    "There is no doubt that the dead are helped by the prayers of holy Church, by the saving sacrifice, and by alms dispensed for their souls; these things are done that they may be more mercifully dealt with by the Lord than their sins deserve. The whole Church observes the custom handed down by our fathers: that those who died within the fellowship of Christ’s body and blood should be prayed for when they are commemorated in their own place at the holy sacrifice, and that we should be reminded that this sacrifice is offered for them as well." (Sermon 172:2 [date unknown; 393~430])
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2021
  14. Valletta

    Valletta Active Member

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    Except for converts who are already married Catholic priests cannot marry.
     
  15. Valletta

    Valletta Active Member

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    Why doesn't God just send us all to Heaven? God's ways are far above our ways. Jesus could have left us an instruction book. As to why God chose to work through men you will have to ask Him. But the reality is Jesus did not leave a rule book. Instead a man was left to make a final decision. If there was debate among the Apostles, for example, whether Baptism should replace circumcision, Peter, after consulting with others, was to have the final say. It was the same with the process of choosing the 73 books of the Bible, those books needed the approval of the Pope, else there might be hundreds of thousands of Bibles today that include different books and/or passages.
     
  16. Original Happy Camper

    Original Happy Camper One of GODS Children I am a historicist Supporter

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    You are mistaken it required the approval of the HOLY SPIRIT not any man.
     
  17. Original Happy Camper

    Original Happy Camper One of GODS Children I am a historicist Supporter

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    Yes he did it is called the WORD OF GOD, the bible

    2 Timothy 3:16
    All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

    Thanks for clarifying your thinking on these issues
     
  18. Original Happy Camper

    Original Happy Camper One of GODS Children I am a historicist Supporter

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    Sounds like a double standard to fit the occasion.
     
  19. Original Happy Camper

    Original Happy Camper One of GODS Children I am a historicist Supporter

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    Sounds like second chance theology to me. Bible scripture would help in this conversation if you have some to support purification after death.

    Example

    Ecclesiastes 9:5
    For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

    that is plain scripture refuting your second chance theology
     
  20. Original Happy Camper

    Original Happy Camper One of GODS Children I am a historicist Supporter

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    I appreciate that he is willing to post his thoughts on this thread, he appears not to want to preach to the choir.
     
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