Doctrinal Origin from Pope Gregory I

Swordman007

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Celibacy for priests is not "doctrine." It is a discipline. Sometimes teaching is made official through councils and the popes due to heresy and is then clarified--that does not mean it never previously existed.

You know, that's an interesting thought. There are two roman catholic priests in my city who have wives and children, so you may very well be correct. I forgot about them until now. However, isn't it true that, years ago, they would never have been allowed to become priests while being married?
 
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Swordman007

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Yes, you are right. It was required for all, then it was changed. Another example of a discipline is not eating meat on Fridays in Lent.

Doesn't that introduce some measure of doubt in the origin and stability of the RCC beliefs and teachings and practices? I don't recall the Lord ever implementing changes to the requirements of the Levite priest, nor of the Aaronic priests and the fires they were authorized to burn unto the Lord. I recall the two brothers who burned "strange fires" at the temple because of their not being true priests unto the Lord, but only sons of priests, and the Lord struck them dead. Why would not the Lord be just as stable with any and all requirements originating from Him now and in the recent past for all doctrines and practices in the RCC if they are indeed from Him?
 
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Swordman007

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The purification spoken of in the Bible takes place before we enter Heaven, and nothing unclean can enter Heaven. We call this purification purgatory..we call purgatory.
Mt 12:32
And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

The occurrences of the Greek grammar translated in reference to "the world to come" is not a reference to some place called "purgatory" or any other place of cleansing.

I say that because the same grammar also appears in Mark 10:30, Luke 18:30, Heb. 2:5 and Heb. 6:5. They all refer to eternity in Heaven.
 
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Albion

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Where does that distinction come from, because I don't see any of the verses speaking of the redemptive power of the Blood of Christ Jesus as not having the cleansing ability for lesser sins.
I agree with you, but remember that the church which invented Purgatory doesn't think in terms of a coming to the Faith as a conversion experience. Grace is doled out, sin compromises it, confession to a priest restores the state of grace, you build up your prospects of salvation by performing works of charity or doing church-appointed devotions, and so on through life.

What is the apostolic church? Is that one of many denominations?
My apologies for that. It's just a term that refers to the church as it was while the Apostles whom Christ called and commissioned to lead the church were still alive. That would be until somewhere near the end of the first century AD.
 
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chilehed

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I'm wondering if there's anyone who can explain the doctrine of purgatory?
The best thing to do for all such questions is to first consult the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Given that the doctrine didn't even exist until Gregory I revealed it in about 593 AD, did purgatory not exist until that time, given that it was completely unknown to christendom before that time, so far as I can find, all the way back to the time of the apostles? I mean, if the apostles knew about it, then why did it not become a central doctrine until 593 AD?
You seem to have the idea that that there being no record of something being definitively taught prior to a certain time means that it wasn't taught at all prior to that time, and that is a logical error. If something is so widely believed that no one really talks about it then you're not going to find much written about it, especially in a culture that relies heavily in oral teaching like that of 1st Century Palestine.

And even today... I bet that if you try to find historical records for people teaching that marriage by definition cannot exist between two men or two women, you won't find a single example prior to... let's be extremely generous and say 1980. And now you see people having to say it all over the place. Does that mean that the idea was invented in the late 20th Century? Not at all! No one had to start talking about it until there were a significant number of people denying it.

Another example is the Arian heresy, which denied the divinity of Christ. Arius was a very intelligent guy who used the Scriptures very effectively to support his idea that Jesus is a created being, not co-eternal with the Father. A huge portion of Christendom came to believe him, until, at Council of Nicea, the Church definitively declared that Jesus is consubstantial and coeternal with the Father. It wasn't a new idea, it was what had always been believed, but it had never been stated explicitly before because no one had ever denied it.

So no, the doctrine of Purgatory was not invented in the late 6th Century. It was always part of the deposit of faith. There are numerous ancient references to it, some of which have been given to you by Mitchie.
 
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chevyontheriver

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I'm wondering if there's anyone who can explain the doctrine of purgatory?

Given that the doctrine didn't even exist until Gregory I revealed it in about 593 AD, did purgatory not exist until that time, given that it was completely unknown to christendom before that time, so far as I can find, all the way back to the time of the apostles? I mean, if the apostles knew about it, then why did it not become a central doctrine until 593 AD?
The one sensible thing Albion has contributed to this discussion is to suggest the following: "It is actually more complicated than most people suspect, even Catholics. But because this is a purely Roman Catholic doctrine, you might help yourself by taking your question straight to the Catholic forum here. "One Bread, One Body" is its name."
 
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Swag365

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It should be said, however, that this is just the newer, more palatable version of Purgatory that the Church is currently promoting. The historic doctrine holds that Purgatory is a place of purgation, punishment that's no less painful than what's suffered by the souls in Hell. And it is not just for unforgiven sins, but for sins that have already been forgiven! That is to say, even the saved must "pay" for having sinned in the first place, even if they've been forgiven of them in Confession or some other way and are, therefore, assured of Heaven. In other words, Purgatory is for nearly everyone who is bound, ultimately, for Heaven.

Modern Catholics naturally are unwilling to believe such Medieval stuff, so the Church has unofficially begun to redefine Purgatory...and the section you quoted exemplifies this new approach.

Instead of purgation, the word used is "purification," even though it's the first one of these usages that gives its name to the place. This new approach has been called the "celestial washroom" because it posits a Purgatory that is a quickie re-orientation prior to the soul entering into Heaven. So it's no longer time-consuming or painful, therefore who could dispute that or fear it?

The reason for all this subterfuge may need to be understood also. Unlike Limbo (unbaptized infants), which the Church disposed of a few years ago, Purgatory was the creation of a church council, so dumping it cannot honestly be explained away in the way Limbo's expiration is explained--"well, it never was official, you know."

Purgatory will continue to be taught, but the "Purgatory" that is referred to now is not the Purgatory of the previous 600 or so years of Church history.


.................................................................................................
No, the Catholic Church has never defined as doctrine purgatory as you describe above. Much of what you wrote fell into the realm of individual theological speculation, and was never taught as the official doctrine binding on the church. To quote the council of Trent:

Twenty-Fifth Session of the Council of Trent | EWTN

The more difficult and subtle questions, however, and those that do not make for edification and from which there is for the most part no increase in piety, are to be excluded from popular instructions to uneducated people.[3] Likewise, things that are uncertain or that have the appearance of falsehood they shall not permit to be made known publicly and discussed. But those things that tend to a certain kind of curiosity or superstition, or that savor of filthy lucre, they shall prohibit as scandals and stumbling-blocks to the faithful.

Much of what you wrote falls into "the certain kind of curiosity or superstition, or that savor of filthy lucre" that Trent officially prohibited from being taught, some 500 years ago.

What happens is that people have difficulty objecting to what the Catholic Church actually teaches, so they create straw men, like you have done here, and then attack the straw-man. It is a shameful thing.

I suggest that if anyone here is interested in learning about what the Catholic Church teaches, please go to her official documents (e.g. Florence, Trent, the Roman Catechism, the current catechism), rather than listening to the ramblings of ex-Catholics with their own pet theories about what the "historical doctrine" of the Church was.
 
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Swag365

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My apologies for that. It's just a term that refers to the church as it was while the Apostles whom Christ called and commissioned to lead the church were still alive. That would be until somewhere near the end of the first century AD.
Rank nonsense. The Nicene Creed refers to "one holy catholic and apostolic Church" and was written centuries after the death of the last apostle.
 
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PaulCyp1

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Beliefs of the Church do not become formal doctrine until clearly defined by the Pope. On the other hand, no Pope has ever formally defined any doctrine that had not been accepted by the Church from the very beginning. This is the case with Purgatory. The Catholic Church believed and taught from apostolic times that (1) only the spiritually pure can enter Heaven; and (2) only those who reject God and choose evil will go to Hell. However, most human beings do not fit into either of those categories. Most humans make an effort to live decent lives, but still behave in some ways that God would not approve of. Therefore, common sense requires that God must provide a means of final purification where people who are spiritually/morally imperfect, yet have not rejected or ignored God, can experience final purification (purgation) before entering Heaven.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I'm wondering if there's anyone who can explain the doctrine of purgatory?

Given that the doctrine didn't even exist until Gregory I revealed it in about 593 AD, did purgatory not exist until that time, given that it was completely unknown to christendom before that time, so far as I can find, all the way back to the time of the apostles? I mean, if the apostles knew about it, then why did it not become a central doctrine until 593 AD?

What are the authoritative definitions for that place, and who goes there, and by what criteria?

I realize this has probably been asked many times, but reading through the posts, it appears there was application of all kinds of logical fallacies on both sides of the argument. Can anyone summarize the criteria for that place with a bird's eye view of that criteria without having to read through myriads of ancient literature?

This captured my attention because of the thief on the cross who was told by Jesus that he would be with Jesus in paradise that very day as is recorded in the Greek texts.

I noticed that some claimed the thief had done his suffering on his cross to negate his need for cleansing, while others claimed he had done his indulgence and prayer works for everything before his crucifixion, and the crucifixion itself purged his thefts. It seems like those explanations strain at imagination, with no adherents willing to admit that maybe the doctrine itself is flawed, or downright false, or even originating from one or more of the many religions of Rome at that time. The ancient Greeks and Roman religions spoke of a place in the afterlife called the Asphodel Fields, where dwelled a varied selection of human souls...those whose sins equaled their goodness, were indecisive in their lives, or were not judged. This is very similar to purgatory. The ancient Egyptian and buddhist religions also had a similar place in their belief systems.

So I'm wondering how anyone can so easily make claimed assumptions about that thief without addressing only the known facts. I mean, it seems dangerous for anyone to not desire to test doctrines to see if they can withstand scrutiny rather than accepting it blindly; without question, just because someone in the ancient past claimed it's true who is not among the apostles who lived and walked with Jesus.

While I do not accept the doctrine of Purgatory, the idea behind Purgatory didn't appear out from no where. We see at least as early as St. Augustine at least some in the Western Church speculating on the subject,

"It is a matter that may be inquired into, and either ascertained or left doubtful, whether some believers shall pass through a kind of purgatorial fire, and in proportion as they have loved with more or less devotion the goods that perish, be less or more quickly delivered from it." - St. Augustine of Hippo, The Handbook on Faith, Hope, and Love aka The Enchiridion of St. Augustine, ch. 69

-CryptoLutheran
 
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DamianWarS

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It is actually more complicated than most people suspect, even Catholics. But because this is a purely Roman Catholic doctrine, you might help yourself by taking your question straight to the Catholif forum here. "One Bread, One Body" is its name.
I take @Swordman007 wishes to discuss this beyond the scope the "One Bread, One Body" forum can provide
 
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Valletta

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The occurrences of the Greek grammar translated in reference to "the world to come" is not a reference to some place called "purgatory" or any other place of cleansing.

I say that because the same grammar also appears in Mark 10:30, Luke 18:30, Heb. 2:5 and Heb. 6:5. They all refer to eternity in Heaven.
Do not assume it is a place. It's just a word for the purifying that takes place before we enter Heaven.
 
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Valletta

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While I do not accept the doctrine of Purgatory, the idea behind Purgatory didn't appear out from no where. We see at least as early as St. Augustine at least some in the Western Church speculating on the subject,

"It is a matter that may be inquired into, and either ascertained or left doubtful, whether some believers shall pass through a kind of purgatorial fire, and in proportion as they have loved with more or less devotion the goods that perish, be less or more quickly delivered from it." - St. Augustine of Hippo, The Handbook on Faith, Hope, and Love aka The Enchiridion of St. Augustine, ch. 69

-CryptoLutheran
That's true, Augustine wrestled with thoughts about purgatory. I have provided a quotation from a sermon of his below: Remember, the choosing of what books to read at mass, and the Church choosing the 73 books of the Bible, took centuries. People disagreed. The first list of today's NT (and it is in the same order of books today as well) is not found until the mid 300!

"There is no doubt that the dead are helped by the prayers of holy Church, by the saving sacrifice, and by alms dispensed for their souls; these things are done that they may be more mercifully dealt with by the Lord than their sins deserve. The whole Church observes the custom handed down by our fathers: that those who died within the fellowship of Christ’s body and blood should be prayed for when they are commemorated in their own place at the holy sacrifice, and that we should be reminded that this sacrifice is offered for them as well." (Sermon 172:2 [date unknown; 393~430])
 
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Valletta

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You know, that's an interesting thought. There are two roman catholic priests in my city who have wives and children, so you may very well be correct. I forgot about them until now. However, isn't it true that, years ago, they would never have been allowed to become priests while being married?
Except for converts who are already married Catholic priests cannot marry.
 
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Valletta

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Doesn't that introduce some measure of doubt in the origin and stability of the RCC beliefs and teachings and practices? I don't recall the Lord ever implementing changes to the requirements of the Levite priest, nor of the Aaronic priests and the fires they were authorized to burn unto the Lord. I recall the two brothers who burned "strange fires" at the temple because of their not being true priests unto the Lord, but only sons of priests, and the Lord struck them dead. Why would not the Lord be just as stable with any and all requirements originating from Him now and in the recent past for all doctrines and practices in the RCC if they are indeed from Him?
Why doesn't God just send us all to Heaven? God's ways are far above our ways. Jesus could have left us an instruction book. As to why God chose to work through men you will have to ask Him. But the reality is Jesus did not leave a rule book. Instead a man was left to make a final decision. If there was debate among the Apostles, for example, whether Baptism should replace circumcision, Peter, after consulting with others, was to have the final say. It was the same with the process of choosing the 73 books of the Bible, those books needed the approval of the Pope, else there might be hundreds of thousands of Bibles today that include different books and/or passages.
 
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Original Happy Camper

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It was the same with the process of choosing the 73 books of the Bible, those books needed the approval of the Pope,

You are mistaken it required the approval of the HOLY SPIRIT not any man.
 
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Original Happy Camper

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But the reality is Jesus did not leave a rule book.

Yes he did it is called the WORD OF GOD, the bible

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Thanks for clarifying your thinking on these issues
 
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Original Happy Camper

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Do not assume it is a place. It's just a word for the purifying that takes place before we enter Heaven.

Sounds like second chance theology to me. Bible scripture would help in this conversation if you have some to support purification after death.

Example

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

that is plain scripture refuting your second chance theology
 
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Original Happy Camper

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I take @Swordman007 wishes to discuss this beyond the scope the "One Bread, One Body" forum can provide

I appreciate that he is willing to post his thoughts on this thread, he appears not to want to preach to the choir.
 
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