Do you trust God or Man when it comes to the creation?

[d taylor]

KInda reminds me of the folks who steadfastly declare that the Revelation is perfectly clear in its message, but then no two of them can agree what that message is.

Oh, so the verse below is not clear to you, if so what part do you not understand.

Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.

 

[dwb001]

KInda reminds me of the folks who steadfastly declare that the Revelation is perfectly clear in its message, but then no two of them can agree what that message is.

But it is perfectly clear... it is the baggage that people come to the book with that gets in the way.
If you don't add anything(baggage) to the text it is a simple read.
If you don't remove anything(lack of faith in the truth of the text) then the text becomes even easier to read.

Remember that Revelation is the book that comes with instructions on how to use it.

 

[Jipsah]

So why if you do not believe that God made things as is written...
And if His good plan involves pain, suffering and death...
And that even He doesn't even have the ability to do what He said He would do...
Why do you follow this so called "God"?

I think I've set forth why I don't believe that the Creation narrative in Genesis is a technical document. It doesn't provide sufficient detail, it doesn't have anything like the scope necessary to cover th complexity of the universe as created, and its intended audience could never have understood any of it if it had. So the writer of Genesis provided a two page summary of what happened that told all the story that needed telling in that context and drove on.

You want to see the details of what God actually did, start with astronomy, then move on to geology, then oceanography, and then get back to me for the rest of the assignment.

Does God have the ability to do what He did? Apparently so, He did it. You just don't care for the way He did it, and how long it took Him. I'd say that's your problem. Sunds like the peopl who complain, "Where is the promise of His coming?" God's just too slow for their tastes.

And unless you deny Him I will start cutting off your fingers and toes, slowly.

That might ba a dangerous undertaking. I've been told that if you get both the Korean and the Redneck genes lit off at the same time the results are potentially catastrophic.

The net-net, though, is that I see little or no reason to deny God for not having lived up to your beliefs. Your faith can't endure God having lavished His time and attention on the design of the Creation, to make it the both the ultimate feat of engineering and the final triumph of art. You take the bureaucrat's view; you don't care how well it works or how beautiful it is. You don't give a hoot as long as it happened NOW! That apparently isn't the way God operates. You get the supernovas and the hedgehogs, Everest and edelweis.

No, you want God's magnificence to be restricted to what the scribe included in that two page summary. Sorry mate, but it just doesn't work that way.

Now in the above scenario the belief that God can do what He said He did

Of course He did! You just want to believe that's all He did! Not true at all. No book could have contained what He actually did!

shields me from any uncertainty.

Just keep God confined so He doesn't do anything frightening. Two pages wil be plenty.

I will suffer and die without a wobble in my faith.

I hope it doesn't involve blowing anyone else up. (Yes, that was a cheat shot, but it is a fact that your belief in the literal Genesis is shared by folks who do blow up other people for their faith.)

But a young Earth, evolutionist, flood denier has multiple weak points in their faith that can be exploited.

My faith isn't in floods, evolution, or the age of the earth. I set no store by any of them. My faith is in Jesus Christ, end of.

You will argue against this idea(most likely), but if you just follow the logic you will see that this is the way things work out when you start believing the little lies that lie in wait.

Depends on the basis iof your faith. Mine isn't in Genesis. Mine is in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The OT is of little importance to me. Wanna hear my Creation summary? Here it is:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

That's it, old man. You can rip Genesis out and toss it in the trash if you want, it won't bother me a bit. There's all I need to know about the Creation.

 

[Jipsah]

Oh, so the verse below is not clear to you, if so what part do you not understand.

Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.

That's clear enough. Makes for a tiny Bible, though, doesn't it? Seems like there's a lot more to the New Testament than that. Reckon any of it might make a diffeence?

 

[dwb001]

I think I've set forth why I don't believe that the Creation narrative in Genesis is a technical document. It doesn't provide sufficient detail, it doesn't have anything like the scope necessary to cover th complexity of the universe as created, and its intended audience could never have understood any of it if it had. So the writer of Genesis provided a two page summary of what happened that told all the story that needed telling in that context and drove on.

You want to see the details of what God actually did, start with astronomy, then move on to geology, then oceanography, and then get back to me for the rest of the assignment.

Does God have the ability to do what He did? Apparently so, He did it. You just don't care for the way He did it, and how long it took Him. I'd say that's your problem. Sunds like the peopl who complain, "Where is the promise of His coming?" God's just too slow for their tastes.

That might ba a dangerous undertaking. I've been told that if you get both the Korean and the Redneck genes lit off at the same time the results are potentially catastrophic.

The net-net, though, is that I see little or no reason to deny God for not having lived up to your beliefs. Your faith can't endure God having lavished His time and attention on the design of the Creation, to make it the both the ultimate feat of engineering and the final triumph of art. You take the bureaucrat's view; you don't care how well it works or how beautiful it is. You don't give a hoot as long as it happened NOW! That apparently isn't the way God operates. You get the supernovas and the hedgehogs, Everest and edelweis.

No, you want God's magnificence to be restricted to what the scribe included in that two page summary. Sorry mate, but it just doesn't work that way.

Of course He did! You just want to believe that's all He did! Not true at all. No book could have contained what He actually did!

Just keep God confined so He doesn't do anything frightening. Two pages wil be plenty.

I hope it doesn't involve blowing anyone else up. (Yes, that was a cheat shot, but it is a fact that your belief in the literal Genesis is shared by folks who do blow up other people for their faith.)

My faith isn't in floods, evolution, or the age of the earth. I set no store by any of them. My faith is in Jesus Christ, end of.

Depends on the basis iof your faith. Mine isn't in Genesis. Mine is in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The OT is of little importance to me. Wanna hear my Creation summary? Here it is:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

That's it, old man. You can rip Genesis out and toss it in the trash if you want, it won't bother me a bit. There's all I need to know about the Creation.

Your rant of a response is indicative of a group idolization.

So dedicated to one viewpoint that one is.unable to see the other person's perspective.

 

[The Barbarian]

Please listen to Him.

No i do not, The Bible states a person receives God's free gift of Eternal Life by belief in Jesus.

Jesus says that whether you spend your eternity with Him or with the devil depends on what you do for the least among us. I believe Him. I wish you did.

But regardless, of our back and forths. You proved my point that your statement about scripture being clear on a subject, then all (christians) would agree is not true.

Notice you picked a verse that sounds to you like it's right, and I pointed out to you places where Jesus says the opposite of what you thought the verse said. So there we are. And it's not surprising that there are Christians who ignore Matthew and think salvation is just crying "Lord, Lord." Because they interpret it differently. And far as I can see both sides are sincere. You just proved my point that if scripture were clear on a subject ,then all Christians would agree on it.

Thank you.

I get how much you don't want to believe what Jesus says in Matthew 25. But it is true. Here's a way to resolve this for you:

James 2: 17 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself. 18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith. 19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

 

[Jipsah]

But it is perfectly clear... it is the baggage that people come to the book with that gets in the way.

Yep, that's what they all say before they fall to fighting about what it really means.

If you don't add anything(baggage) to the text it is a simple read.

So say they all.

If you don't remove anything(lack of faith in the truth of the text) then the text becomes even easier to read.

Remember that Revelation is the book that comes with instructions on how to use it.

You need to hold forth on the GT Eschatology forum <Laugh>

 

[The Barbarian]

He asked you how the age of the Earth is salvational. You merely asserted without evidence that the first three chapters of Genesis is salvational. But they don't give the age of the Earth.

So you agree that this post was not directed at you and you again edited out my question to the poster.

Seems like an important fact here. We aren't given an age for the Earth in the first three chapters of Genesis. So it can't be anything at all, since it doesn't exist.

 

[Jipsah]

Your rant of a response is indicative of a group idolization.

In English, please? But I take it to mean you don't agree. <Laugh>

So dedicated to one viewpoint that one is.unable to see the other person's perspective.

No, I just think your "perspective" is grossly in error.

 

[d taylor]

Please listen to Him.

Jesus says that whether you spend your eternity with Him or with the devil depends on what you do for the least among us. I believe Him. I wish you did.

Notice you picked a verse that sounds to you like it's right, and I pointed out to you places where Jesus says the opposite of what you thought the verse said. So there we are. And it's not surprising that there are Christians who ignore Matthew and think salvation is just crying "Lord, Lord." Because they interpret it differently. And far as I can see both sides are sincere. You just proved my point that if scripture were clear on a subject ,then all Christians would agree on it.

Thank you.

I get how much you don't want to believe what Jesus says in Matthew 25. But it is true. Here's a way to resolve this for you:

James 2: 17 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself. 18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith. 19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

I will say one thing for you or about you. You are consistent in your lack of faith. You do not believe in God's creation described in The Bible and you do not believe in God's way to receive His free gift of Eternal Life.

Enjoy the rest of your life.

 

[d taylor]

That's clear enough. Makes for a tiny Bible, though, doesn't it? Seems like there's a lot more to the New Testament than that. Reckon any of it might make a diffeence?

-
​

The gate is narrow and few will find it.

A lot are trying to work their way through, but that will end only in big time failure.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Thanks for asking... I am sure you will jump to conclusions again... but we can deal with that as it happens.

The first 3 Chapters of Genesis is sufficient for salvation.
Also they have the power to save.

So how do you understand the above two statements?

Explain what you mean by "the first 3 Chapters of Genesis is sufficient for salvation ... they have the power to save".

I don't understand those two statements. Which is why I need a lot more elaboration and explanation.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

So the first three chapters of Genesis show God's power, mans position to God, and mans fall by Satans machinations.

This much I agree with.

This is enough to be salvational for the next 2000 years until Abram gets selected to be God's example on Earth.
Sufficient.

What does this mean? What is enough to be salvational?

The next bit depends on how much of Satan's lie you have swallowed.

Assuming much aren't we?

You don't believe in a young Earth.
Do you believe mankind is the end result of evolution or the final created work of the Lord?
Do you believe there was a world wide flood with Noah and fam being the only survivors along with the animals on the Ark?

Not directed at me. But:

No, I don't believe in a young earth, at least not as modern Young Earth Creationism defines it. The earth is certainly young compared to the age of the universe though, at only 4.5 billion years or so.

I don't know what is meant by "the end result of evolution", because from an evolutionary perspective, that's not a meaningful statement.

That said, yes, I do believe that the way God brought about the human species is through biological evolution. So presenting a choice between natural and divine causes is a false dilemma. It would be like asking if you are the product of sexual reproduction and embryonic development in your mother's womb, or if God created you. These aren''t mutually exclusive statements, they refer to the same reality. In the same way that there is no conflict between whether particles are held together by the strong and weak nuclear forces, or by God's will and power. Or if mass is held together by gravitation, or by God's power.

God, as the Author of everything that exists, established a universe of natural order and arrangement.

Even taking the story of the flood literally wouldn't lead us to a "world-wide flood"; since in the context of the text it requires introducing ideas foreign to the Biblical text to conclude a global flood. What is meant, in the text itself, is that the land was covered by water. That's all the text is stating--making it a "global flood" is an anachronism being introduced backward into the text.

So I can say that, no, I don't believe there was a globe-spanning flood. Was there an ancient and catastrophic flood? That I can believe, but that's not the important part of the story of Noah and the flood. The important part of the story is what it's telling us about God, man, and the problem of sin.

We read that God regretted making man because of just how evil man was. So He chose to start all over, He chose to un-make the world and start all over again, afresh, with a new human family--Noah's family.

Question: Did the flood solve the problem of sin and evil in the world? The obvious answer is, of course not. Just as soon as the flood waters recede, just after Noah builds an altar and God paints a rainbow in the sky as a promise, Noah gets so hammered that he's sprawled out naked in his tent. Noah's son walks in on him, and Noah responds violently and angrily by cursing his own grandson. Doesn't sound like the new human family is actually much better than the last one. Seems like the same problems are there as before.

The actual way God is going to solve this whole problem of sin and evil, well that story begins later, when a certain pastoralist, a son of Terah, living among the Chaldeans gets a special call from God, and a specific promise. And you, of course, know the Scriptures well enough to know where that story goes.

So now you have knowledge of how Gen 1-3 are sufficient for salvation.

You haven't explained how. At all.

Depending on your answers to my second point questions I will explain the saving power of Genesis.

I'd genuinely like to see you answer the question.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[The Barbarian]

I will say one thing for you or about you. You are consistent in your lack of faith.

I believe what Jesus says, and you reject it. One of us has a lack of faith, but I don't think it's me.

 

[The Barbarian]

You do not believe in God's creation described in The Bible

I accept it as it is, without your modern revisions.

you do not believe in God's way to receive His free gift of Eternal Life.

I'm just showing you what Jesus says about what will decide your eternal home. I believe Him. I wish you would.

 

[Kenneth Redden]

Both, God; with the Creation in Genesis 1:1 KJV, and man with the Big Bang in 2Peter 3:10 KJV, which is for, "beloved," today; the fourth day of the Creation, in 2Peter 3:8 KJV!

 

[SeventhFisherofMen]

And I see that in this defense of your post you leave out the accusation you made one sentence earlier.

You do not see how you are being dismissive of the other side of the argument?

What is your proof texts that God does not care if you believe His words or not?

It would appear that the bulk of Matt 25 is that we are to be held accountable for what we know/do/have been given.
So you have been given the creation account in Genesis 1 and you have discarded it.
Replacing the words of God with your "better" understanding because you have higher knowledge.
Matt 25 would say that you will be held accountable for why you reinterpret God's words to diminish His power and ability.

it's really sad that it's becoming rare to find Christians that actually take the Bible at face value for what it says.

 

[trophy33]

it's really sad that it's becoming rare to find Christians that actually take the Bible at face value for what it says.

How do you know its supposed to be taken at face value, though?


take something at face value
- to accept something as it appears to be rather than studying it more closely

take something at face value

1. to accept something as it appears to be rather than studying it more…

dictionary.cambridge.org

 

[Kenneth Redden]

The King James Version Bible is a book by two authors, the apostle Paul, as explained "in few words" from Paul in Ephesians 3:3-4, and the king of Salem, priest of the most high God, "Melchisedec" the third day in Hebrews 13:22; and as "Melchizedek," "in the beginning" in Genesis 14:18 and second day in Psalms 110:4
All this according to the "few words," "from the beginning," demarcating the days of the Creation in the KJV Bible, throughout OT KJV text. And because of Hebrews 7:3 KJV, Melchisedec could be present in 1611 England with the completion of KJV Bible. A letter to us of the 21st Century; not ignorant of the fifth day of the Creation, as explained in Revelation 20:3, and Revelation 20:4, with the sixth day as explained with, "one day as a thousand years," with the sixth occurrence of, "thousand years" in Revelation 20:7, according to 2Peter 3:8 KJV.

Somebody stop me, LOL!

 

[SeventhFisherofMen]

How do you know its supposed to be taken at face value, though?


take something at face value
- to accept something as it appears to be rather than studying it more closely

take something at face value

1. to accept something as it appears to be rather than studying it more…

dictionary.cambridge.org

"And on the 5th day God created..."

Dude if someone would have told me back when I was 15 that people in 2023 would be arguing about what that means I woulda laughed. Now i'm shocked