Do you think you deserve eternal torment in hell?

[Timothew]

I don't know if this is the right place for this question but I am curious.

It seems to me that many Christians think that eternal torment in hell is just. Not only that, but they themselves believe that they themselves deserve eternal torment in hell. Or could they just be saying that since now they perceive that they are saved from it.

If you do please explain as well as possible why you believe you deserve it.

I don't believe that there is eternal torment in hell, according to the Bible.
So I can't really say if I deserve it or not. Off hand I would wonder who really does deserve a tormenting such as Jonathan Edwards describes in his mad sermon.

 

[cuja1]

IMHO, it doesn't matter at all if we use the word Hell or some other one. And as for it not being "eternal," that's a possibility, but there is enough evidence on both sides of that issue for the prudent person to say it's not settled. So he continues to worry and feel he has to deal with it.

Beyond that, the question of the thread is not settled merely by denying Hell. We were asked about that. Hell. I guess you could say, "Don't worry. There ain't none." Would this satisfy Cuja1, who is thinking of the traditional Hell? Maybe, but I'm thinking that it won't because it's that one he asked about.

I'm kind of glad you mentioned that. My view of hell is that we don't really have bodies in hell. It is more just us left to our thoughts and desires but left fully unfulfilled for eternity. Madness, and depression spin slowly more and more out of control, all the consequences of sin in this life are felt in hell but without any sort of relief.

I don't believe anyone actually burns, but there might be temporary punishment involving physical pain.

Not as bad as the traditional hell, but still far from pleasant.

Part of me says hell might not be eternal, but based on how life seems so unfair at times, it would make sense that hell would be that way as well.

 

[Hillsage]

Beyond that, the question of the thread is not settled merely by denying Hell. We were asked about that. Hell. I guess you could say, "Don't worry. There ain't none." .

I'm just answering the OP with my POV which suffices for me. It was not a position I arrived at 'over night' either. It took 10 years of study, and just plain old, heartfelt 'hoping' it was true, before I can honestly say I became fully convinced that it 'was true'. But "Hell" being tossed does not mean you don't have to still deal with the different Greek words translated as 'Hell'.

 

[Albion]

I'm just answering the OP with my POV which suffices for me.

I have no doubts about it sufficing for you. Why would I?

To be clear, I was saying that you COULD, reasonably enough, take that position. But it also is worth saying that it doesn't seem to address the concern expressed in the OP to do so. OK?

Had he asked a different question about Hell, the afterlife, salvation, etc. yours might have been the perfect response. But he didn't.

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

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[South Bound]

I'm kind of glad you mentioned that. My view of hell is that we don't really have bodies in hell.

On what basis do you disagree with the Bible's teaching that those in Hell will have real, literal, corporeal bodies?

It is more just us left to our thoughts and desires but left fully unfulfilled for eternity.

And how did you come to the conclusion that those in Hell will have thoughts without a brain, which requires a body?

I don't believe anyone actually burns, but there might be temporary punishment involving physical pain.

On what grounds do you disagree with the Bible's teaching that Hell is a place of literal fire, where people are literally burned, for a literal eternity?

Part of me says hell might not be eternal

On what grounds do you disagree with the Bible's teaching that Hell is eternal.

 

[Albion]

I'm kind of glad you mentioned that. My view of hell is that we don't really have bodies in hell. It is more just us left to our thoughts and desires but left fully unfulfilled for eternity.

The usual idea is that we are spirits in the afterlife but that they also think, perceive, etc. no less than beings with physical bodies do.

all the consequences of sin in this life are felt in hell but without any sort of relief.

I'm sure that a lot of preachers and pastors would say that's a good way of putting it.

I don't believe anyone actually burns, but there might be temporary punishment involving physical pain. Not as bad as the traditional hell, but still far from pleasant.

The "traditional" view of Hell agrees with all of that except for the "temporary" part.

Part of me says hell might not be eternal, but based on how life seems so unfair at times, it would make sense that hell would be that way as well.

But that takes us back to the OP where you asked if we "deserve" an eternity of Hell. We do deserve it. it's not unfair IF we have not qualified for relief from it because we are all sinners, right? But then we have to move to whether or not we are going to get it, as opposed to deserving it. No, a believer, one who trusts Christ, WON'T get it, even if he technically deserves it. That being the case, I recommend that you trust Jesus, as he asked, and believe that you don't have to worry, as he also told his followers.

The ONLY reason for concern, as I see it, is if you worry for others--those who don't know the Lord. But then we are into the unknown. We do know, from the Bible, that some will not "make it" into heaven, but exactly what God has in store for the others is not spelled out for us in detail.

 

[cuja1]

First off, the book of Revelations is extremely metaphorical. I don't see anywhere that it says in a literal sense that people will be burned by a literal fire for eternity. There are verses that suggest that, but I see it as a metaphorical fire.

I also don't see anywhere that the Bible insists that people in hell have physical bodies. As far as thoughts without a brain, I don't agree with that. Why can't you have thoughts without having a physical brain?

As far as hell being eternal, I'd imagine it probably is, but as stated before, there is evidence that it may or may not be. My grounds are that there are many verses that say the wicked are destroyed.

 

[Albion]

First off, the book of Revelations is extremely metaphorical. I don't see anywhere that it says in a literal sense that people will be burned by a literal fire for eternity. There are verses that suggest that, but I see it as a metaphorical fire.

All right, but the idea of an eternal Hell, and that it's one of wailing and gnashing of teeth, is not exclusively because of that one book of the Bible. Exactly what the torment is like is, of course, a matter of dispute, even among very orthodox, very traditional, Christians of whatever denomination.

I also don't see anywhere that the Bible insists that people in hell have physical bodies. As far as thoughts without a brain, I don't agree with that. Why can't you have thoughts without having a physical brain?

I myself have not disagreed with any of that. But I also don't see how it might affect the subject we've been debating, one way or the other.

As far as hell being eternal, I'd imagine it probably is, but as stated before, there is evidence that it may or may not be. My grounds are that there are many verses that say the wicked are destroyed.

In the New Testament? And more than the number of verses that suggest that they won't be?

 

[Der Alte]

First off, the book of Revelations is extremely metaphorical. I don't see anywhere that it says in a literal sense that people will be burned by a literal fire for eternity. There are verses that suggest that, but I see it as a metaphorical fire.

I also don't see anywhere that the Bible insists that people in hell have physical bodies. As far as thoughts without a brain, I don't agree with that. Why can't you have thoughts without having a physical brain?

As far as hell being eternal, I'd imagine it probably is, but as stated before, there is evidence that it may or may not be. My grounds are that there are many verses that say the wicked are destroyed.

I believe there is a literal hell, which burns forever and that the unrighteous are thrown into it and suffer forever, without end. The Jews, in Israel before and during the time of Jesus believed in a place of eternal, unending, fiery torment and they called it both Gehinnom/Gehenna and Sheol. When Jesus taught about,

• "Eternal punishment, Mt 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mk 9:43-48" and
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Mt 13:42, 50
• “better for him [a person who offends a little one] that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Mt 18:6
• “it had been good for him [the one who betrays Jesus] if he had not been born.” Mat 26:24​

These teachings supported and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Heb 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

If Jesus had wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, He knew the word for death and that is what He would have said but He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died, young, old, good, bad, and knew that it was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood death, it would have meant something worse to them.

Jesus was born, and grew to maturity, in 1st century Israel. He knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct or contradict them, thus their teaching on hell was correct. Here is historical evidence to support this.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).

But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]

As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).

Jewish Encyclopedia Online
====================================================================
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.

The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."

Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

 

[Der Alte]

First off, the book of Revelations is extremely metaphorical. I don't see anywhere that it says in a literal sense that people will be burned by a literal fire for eternity. There are verses that suggest that, but I see it as a metaphorical fire.

I also don't see anywhere that the Bible insists that people in hell have physical bodies. As far as thoughts without a brain, I don't agree with that. Why can't you have thoughts without having a physical brain?

As far as hell being eternal, I'd imagine it probably is, but as stated before, there is evidence that it may or may not be. My grounds are that there are many verses that say the wicked are destroyed.

The Greek word translated "destroyed" most often in the NT ἀπόλλυμι/Appolumi, does not necessarily mean destroyed. It occurs 86 times in the NT, of this 71 times, 83%, cannot mean the destruction/annihilation which supposedly occurs at the final judgment. Here is a list of those other meanings.

(1) ruin, (2) do not bring about his ruin, (3) put to death, the wicked tenants, (4) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death, (5) destroy the wisdom of the wise, (6) destroy the understanding, (7) lose, (8) lose the reward, (9) lose what we have worked for, (10) lose one’s life, (11) lose oneself, (12) The man who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; the one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’), (13) ruined, (14) die, the man dies, (15) As a cry of anguish, we are perishing!, (16) of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer, (17) die by the sword, (18) die of hunger, (19) be corrupted, (20) killed by the snakes, (21) those who are lost, (22) of things be lost, (23) pass away, (24) be ruined, (26) of bursting wineskins, (25) fading beauty, (26) transitory beauty of gold, (27) passing splendor, (28) Of earthly food, (29) spoiled honey, (30) Of falling hair, (31) a member or organ of the body, (32) remnants of food, (33) of wine that has lost its flavor, (34) of sheep gone astray, (35) Of a lost son [that returned].

 

[South Bound]

First off, the book of Revelations is extremely metaphorical.

Evidence?

Incidentally, if you had studied Revelation, why didn't you come across the resurrection of the dead in Rev 20? And, if you had studied Revelation, shouldn't you know it's Revelation, not "Revelations"?

I don't see anywhere that it says in a literal sense that people will be burned by a literal fire for eternity. There are verses that suggest that, but I see it as a metaphorical fire.

Cite those verses.

I also don't see anywhere that the Bible insists that people in hell have physical bodies.

Really? You must not have looked very hard. Just off the top of my head, I can think of John 5:28-29, Daniel 12:2, Acts 24:15, etc.

As far as thoughts without a brain, I don't agree with that. Why can't you have thoughts without having a physical brain?

Because the brain is what generates thought.

As far as hell being eternal, I'd imagine it probably is, but as stated before, there is evidence that it may or may not be.

You keep saying there's evidence and yet, you refuse to tell us what that evidence is. Doesn't sound like you have much confidence in your "evidence".

My grounds are that there are many verses that say the wicked are destroyed.

Yes. Now, can you show us one of those "many verses" in which "destroyed" means annihilated and not merely "put to shame"?

 

[cuja1]

The usual idea is that we are spirits in the afterlife but that they also think, perceive, etc. no less than beings with physical bodies do.


I'm sure that a lot of preachers and pastors would say that's a good way of putting it.


The "traditional" view of Hell agrees with all of that except for the "temporary" part.


But that takes us back to the OP where you asked if we "deserve" an eternity of Hell. We do deserve it. it's not unfair IF we have not qualified for relief from it because we are all sinners, right? But then we have to move to whether or not we are going to get it, as opposed to deserving it. No, a believer, one who trusts Christ, WON'T get it, even if he technically deserves it. That being the case, I recommend that you trust Jesus, as he asked, and believe that you don't have to worry, as he also told his followers.

The ONLY reason for concern, as I see it, is if you worry for others--those who don't know the Lord. But then we are into the unknown. We do know, from the Bible, that some will not "make it" into heaven, but exactly what God has in store for the others is not spelled out for us in detail.

I guess the problem is that I don't trust Jesus. I believe He can do anything, but He never promised a life without pain. I image Paul being beaten and imprisoned. I don't think that I will overcome the fear and apathy that I feel. I don't think I am willing to follow Him wherever He wants me to go.

Sometimes people make salvation sound so easy, but it entails so much more. How can I say with 100% assurance that I will submit myself to whatever hardship Jesus asks, when I can barely submit myself to the easy stuff.

I guess Jesus is not Lord of my life, which means I am going to hell.

 

[cuja1]

Evidence?

Incidentally, if you had studied Revelation, why didn't you come across the resurrection of the dead in Rev 20? And, if you had studied Revelation, shouldn't you know it's Revelation, not "Revelations"?



Cite those verses.



Really? You must not have looked very hard. Just off the top of my head, I can think of John 5:28-29, Daniel 12:2, Acts 24:15, etc.



Because the brain is what generates thought.



You keep saying there's evidence and yet, you refuse to tell us what that evidence is. Doesn't sound like you have much confidence in your "evidence".



Yes. Now, can you show us one of those "many verses" in which "destroyed" means annihilated and not merely "put to shame"?

No offence, but I'm not really interested in an in depth debate about this.

 

[South Bound]

No offence, but I'm not really interested in an in depth debate about this.

Sucks when somebody calls your bluff, doesn't it?

 

[Albion]

I guess the problem is that I don't trust Jesus. I believe He can do anything, but He never promised a life without pain. I image Paul being beaten and imprisoned. I don't think that I will overcome the fear and apathy that I feel. I don't think I am willing to follow Him wherever He wants me to go.

Fair enough. Does this end the discussion?

 

[cuja1]

I suppose so

 

[cuja1]

i'm actually looking for help understanding things, not in debating things. Would I be better off going to a different section?

 

[Timothew]

i'm actually looking for help understanding things, not in debating things. Would I be better off going to a different section?

Don't worry about those guys. Some people want to see others in eternal torment.

 

[Der Alte]

Don't worry about those guys. Some people want to see others in eternal torment.

Seems like some people can't post without deliberately misrepresenting the opposing view.