Do you think you deserve eternal torment in hell?

cuja1

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In other words, you have arrived at your own sense of what's just and what's unjust--and you expect God to conform to it.

Isn't there just a glimmer of a doubt about the illogic there?

Not just and unjust. I can agree with that. It's the punishment that I question. I don't expect God to conform to it. I'd just like to understand it.
 
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cuja1

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I can't decide if you're being coy or just are hardwired to not understand this.

God is God and can do whatever he wants. He does not have to answer to our human, 21st century, social concepts of fair play.

He laid out his demands. Have any of us kept them--always? If not, how do you figure that you deserve anything from God?

So, to paraphrase, your answer would be that you don't understand why you deserve it, but you accept it because you trust God. Have I understood you?
 
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cuja1

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I'm still looking for you to explain why your pastor hasn't explained to you that it isn't the crime that determines the severity of the punishment, in this case, Hell, but the Holiness and Righteousness and Justice and Authority of the One who's laws have been transgressed.

The crime doesn't determine the severity of the punishment? Really?

I understand that my ways aren't God's ways and that He is waaaay smarter than I am. But I also know that sometimes God's ways can be understood. And I'd really like to understand this one.
 
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Albion

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So, to paraphrase, your answer would be that you don't understand why you deserve it

NO! I know--and explained--exactly why I deserve it, right from my first post in this thread forward.

but you accept it because you trust God. Have I understood you?
No again. I said that we are not the ones who get to decide what's fair and what's not fair for God. That's what you and BlueLightning are insisting upon, i.e. that God be reasonable with you.

But that's entirely a function of what you think is reasonable and fair. Step back a minute and answer this question: "Who gets to make the rules?" Whoever this is also gets to decide what to do with those who don't abide by the rules.
 
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South Bound

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The crime doesn't determine the severity of the punishment? Really?

No. That's why Jesus said that if you've broken one law, you've broken them all.

I understand that my ways aren't God's ways and that He is waaaay smarter than I am. But I also know that sometimes God's ways can be understood. And I'd really like to understand this one.

What has your pastor failed to explain to you about God's Holiness, Righteousness, Justice, and Authority?
 
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South Bound

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Albion said:
No again. I said that we are not the ones who get to decide what's fair and what's not fair for God. That's what you and BlueLightning are insisting upon, i.e. that God be reasonable with you.

But that's entirely a function of what you think is reasonable and fair. Step back a minute and answer this question: "Who gets to make the rules?" Whoever this is also gets to decide what to do with those who don't abide by the rules.

Right you are. The Bible compares this to a lump of clay questioning the potter.

Romans 9 comes to mind.
 
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Albion

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But I also know that sometimes God's ways can be understood. And I'd really like to understand this one.

I can appreciate that, but you've been given the answer a number of times over and by different posters. And it's not difficult to comprehend. It simply isn't the answer you hoped to get.
 
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cuja1

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I agree with Hammster.

I have done those things I ought not to have done and failed to do those things that I ought to have done. If God, who created me and is the epitome of righteousness, chooses to punish me for this, why wouldn't it be just?

Of course, we HOPE for something better, but that's completely different from trying to argue that God can't do this or is unjust if he chooses to do it.

ok somehow I missed this response. Let me try again, you are saying that because God is the epitome of righteousness it must be just because He cannot do something that is unjust?
 
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cuja1

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No. That's why Jesus said that if you've broken one law, you've broken them all.



What has your pastor failed to explain to you about God's Holiness, Righteousness, Justice, and Authority?

I'm not sure what you mean by this. God is perfect in every way, I get that.
 
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Hillsage

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The truth is that we all deserve eternal punishm,ent but the good news is that Christ died and paid the price .
If the price for sin "eternal punishment" then Christ 'did not' and 'is not' paying the price? And the price of sin was annihilation, then he never paid that price either.
 
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South Bound

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If the price for sin "eternal punishment" then Christ 'did not' and 'is not' paying the price? And the price of sin was annihilation, then he never paid that price either.

The wages of sin is neither eternal punishment nor annihilation, but death.

Christ died, thus, paying the price of sin.

This is why Jesus said from the cross, "tetelestai!" Literally, this means, "the debt is paid."
 
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Albion

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If the price for sin "eternal punishment" then Christ 'did not' and 'is not' paying the price? And the price of sin was annihilation, then he never paid that price either.

God provided an "out," so we cannot conclude that he is unmerciful. However, I think that gets puts the cart before the horse in this discussion because we're still trying to get an understanding that God did not HAVE TO DO THAT if he had not chosen to, and that he has every right to punish those who deserve it.
 
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Der Alte

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Here's one:

"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

This does say that the lake of fire is the second death, or the second death is the lake of fire. And when read this way it does not equate with death. There is not one verse in the Bible which says sinners are thrown into the LOF then they die. Lets read the lake of fire passaages in context.

Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

And 1000 years later, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are still in the lake of fire.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

The lake of fire [LOF] is called “the second death” twice in Rev. vss. 20:14 and 21:8. While this is true, Rev. never says that anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die. The terms are interchangeable, the lake of fire is the second death and the second death is the lake of fire, thus we can see that it is not synonymous with death or destruction.

We know that being thrown into the LOF is not synonymous with death. In Rev 19:20, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person are thrown into the LOF and 1000 years later in 20:10 the devil, is thrown into the LOF. Three living beings, are thrown into the LOF but they do not die, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever. There is not one verse in Revelation which says anyone or anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies.

Rev 20:14 says death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Death is the point in time end of life, it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere but there is a scriptural answer which does not involve jumping through hoops mixing literal and figurative in one sentence, there is a death and hell which can be thrown into the LOF.

Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.​

The angel of death and the demon of hell are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.
 
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Der Alte

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The wages of sin is neither eternal punishment nor annihilation, but death.

Christ died, thus, paying the price of sin.

This is why Jesus said from the cross, "tetelestai!" Literally, this means, "the debt is paid."

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:​

All, 100% of mankind, have sinned, and come short of the glory of God, the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord, it is appointed unto, all 100% of, men once to die, but after this the judgment:

These verses do not say that the wages of sin is death, resurrection, then a second death. There is not one single verse which specifically states that anyone will die a second time.
 
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Hillsage

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God provided an "out," so we cannot conclude that he is unmerciful. However, I think that gets puts the cart before the horse in this discussion because we're still trying to get an understanding that God did not HAVE TO DO THAT if he had not chosen to, and that he has every right to punish those who deserve it.
Yo Bro. :wave:

I do agree with an 'out'. But I also think he designed us all to sin, that he might have mercy on that same 'all'.
ROM 11:32 For God has consigned all men to disobedience, that he may have mercy upon all.

We have simply been 'chosen, predestined, for ordained, called...to believe in this age....praise be to Him. For me it's simply a question as to when they get their 'first chance' for that 'out'.
 
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Hillsage

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The wages of sin is neither eternal punishment nor annihilation, but death.

Christ died, thus, paying the price of sin.

This is why Jesus said from the cross, "tetelestai!" Literally, this means, "the debt is paid."

I certainly agree with all you just said. :)
 
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TasteForTruth

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I don't know if this is the right place for this question but I am curious.

It seems to me that many Christians think that eternal torment in hell is just. Not only that, but they themselves believe that they themselves deserve eternal torment in hell. Or could they just be saying that since now they perceive that they are saved from it.

If you do please explain as well as possible why you believe you deserve it.
I don't deserve it. But some of God's children will. And they'll deserve it because they willingly—with eyes fully open to, and spirits fully illuminated by, the truth—deny the Holy Ghost and fight with Satan openly against God, thus removing themselves wholly from the mercy of Christ, which would otherwise save them from hell (at least).
 
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Albion

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Yo Bro. :wave:

I do agree with an 'out'. But I also think he designed us all to sin, that he might have mercy on that same 'all'.
ROM 11:32 For God has consigned all men to disobedience, that he may have mercy upon all.

We have simply been 'chosen, predestined, for ordained, called...to believe in this age....praise be to Him. For me it's simply a question as to when they get their 'first chance' for that 'out'.

I'm not opposed to any of us saying that, but I was reluctant to go into it--the message of Christianity--before we had settled why it is not unthinkable that God might eternally punish those who die in their sins, estranged from him.
 
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NannaNae

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I guess what I'm wondering is if there's even an answer to this question.
Do we just have to say, "Yes, I deserve to rot in hell for eternity" without really knowing why, or do people who say they deserve to rot in hell for eternity actually understand why.

If so I would like to know.
" without really knowing why," well that is a lame excuse isn't it..
well read the bible and he will tell you why in it.

the point is you don't believe what he said and what he did..
that is the issue.
 
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