Do you think you deserve eternal torment in hell?

[cuja1]

" without really knowing why," well that is a lame excuse isn't it..
well read the bible and he will tell you why in it.

the point is you don't believe what he said and what he did..
that is the issue.

Yeah? and you made no attempt to understand what I am talking about.
I'm not in the mood for arrogant, self righteous people like you right now

 

[LadyOfMystery]

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[Albion]

Before the thread spins totally out of control, the question still has to be faced.

Who gets to decide the rules?

I ask anyone here who thinks we creatures of God do not "deserve" this or that kind or level of punishment to answer the question and then be willing to move to the next logical step. The fact is that we mortals do not want to be told what to do by anyone, God included, or at least we do not want to take the consequences of NOT doing what he who is in charge expects of us and has every right to expect of us.

Can you set that impulse aside long enough to face the question and, as a result of that, accept God's eternal plan of salvation? There can be no mercy (that's what you are looking for) unless there is some fault that's being forgiven...but you don't want to admit to the fault, so you can't move to the forgiveness level of this discussion.

 

[Der Alte]

Right and wrong are based on ethics, not what some god says. If the creator of the universe says we should all be tormented, that doesn't make it right... it makes the creator of the universe wrong.

Since God created the universe, at least that is what the Bible says and what I believe, so He gets to make the rules not us. Individual personal ethics is a poor way of determining what is right and wrong.

 

[Albion]

Right and wrong are based on ethics, not what some god says.

I disagree, but if right and wrong are simply a function of social perceptions as you suggest, and there's nothing absolute or transcendent, why would anyone even ask about God, his righteousness, and etc.? You might not. You're only answering the question. But others who are struggling to understand--that's what we've been told repeatedly by Cuja--cannot have it both ways.

If one is a believer in God, he has to come to grips with the fact that the God who is in charge, the God who is the standard of justice, is also the God who is able to do whatever he wills in the end. It's logically impossible for such a person to say "God can give me eternal life if he deigns to do so, but oh no, he can't cast me off from him. That would be unfair."

The thread began on a certain note--do we think we "deserve" eternal punishment from God. If we are blameless, if we are perfect, if we are righteous, we may argue that we do NOT "deserve it." But no one here, to my recollection, has yet stepped up to say "I'm perfect." So if we are admitting to having transgressed, we do deserve what he who has a right to expect more from us does about it, whatever that is. The beauty of it all is that our God IS merciful and has provided a way out for us, one in which he did all the work.

 

[o2bwise]

Before the thread spins totally out of control, the question still has to be faced.

Who gets to decide the rules?

I ask anyone here who thinks we creatures of God do not "deserve" this or that kind or level of punishment to answer the question and then be willing to move to the next logical step. The fact is that we mortals do not want to be told what to do by anyone, God included, or at least we do not want to take the consequences of NOT doing what he who is in charge expects of us and has every right to expect of us.

Can you set that impulse aside long enough to face the question and, as a result of that, accept God's eternal plan of salvation? There can be no mercy (that's what you are looking for) unless there is some fault that's being forgiven...but you don't want to admit to the fault, so you can't move to the forgiveness level of this discussion.

There is a logical fallacy packed in the question, "Who gets to decide the rules?"

The fallacy is the inference that no matter what the rules are, there are OK because they are God's. The reason it is a fallacy is that it does not accommodate the idea that there may be certain "rules" God would never abide by.

For example, Scripture says God does not lie and so His rules are limited, in a sense. Limited by the rules He would "set."

It is really taking the cart before the horse. Rule setting is NOT the starting point from which other things are deduced. The starting point is the character of God and the best we can do is according to our perception of who He is.

John 17:3
3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

To swap this hierarchy (setting rules placed above God's character) is to my mind so egregious as to be heresy.

I am astonished that some know God so little that they think His character is able to accommodate the idea that it is His prerogative, His explicit deliberate desire (since only He has immortality) to have eternity always have the presence of evil, evil beings, and their torment.

Some may count it bliss to contemplate gazing at their pain, but I am not counted among them.


Blessings,

Tony

 

[Albion]

There is a logical fallacy packed in the question, "Who gets to decide the rules?"

The fallacy is the inference that no matter what the rules are, there are OK because they are God's. The reason it is a fallacy is that it does not accommodate the idea that there may be certain "rules" God would never abide by.

Oh no. You are not about to define God according to something you already think you know about him. The question I posed did not presume that to answer the question was to answer it as a Christian, being aware of all that a Christian accepts about God from the Bible.

For example, Scripture says God does not lie and so His rules are limited

Exactly what I was just saying. You approach the question with a certain definition of God already in place. But that isn't included in the question and the question was not intended only for believers.

It is really taking the cart before the horse. Rule setting is NOT the starting point from which other things are deduced.

Yes it is. I already explained that the COMPLETE answer to the matter has to take in all that you want to tell us about the God OF THE BIBLE. But the starting point was framed for us by the OP which did not specify any particular God.

 

[cuja1]

Before the thread spins totally out of control, the question still has to be faced.

Who gets to decide the rules?

I ask anyone here who thinks we creatures of God do not "deserve" this or that kind or level of punishment to answer the question and then be willing to move to the next logical step. The fact is that we mortals do not want to be told what to do by anyone, God included, or at least we do not want to take the consequences of NOT doing what he who is in charge expects of us and has every right to expect of us.

Can you set that impulse aside long enough to face the question and, as a result of that, accept God's eternal plan of salvation? There can be no mercy (that's what you are looking for) unless there is some fault that's being forgiven...but you don't want to admit to the fault, so you can't move to the forgiveness level of this discussion.

I agree that the one who created the universe gets to set the rules, and that these are good rules, and that I have broken quite a few of them. I can accept that I may be deserving of hell. I just don't see how.

From what you have told me, this punishment is just because God is incapable of giving an unjust punishment, that makes sense and I agree with that. What I'm wondering is if that is enough for you or any other person identifying themselves as Christians, to feel deserving of such a punishment from a being who has set the standard so high.

As far as I know, I have taken the steps necessary for salvation. But I wonder if I am truly saved, if I am having questions such as these. Which is more or less, my reason for the question.

 

[o2bwise]

Yes it is. I already explained that the COMPLETE answer to the matter has to take in all that you want to tell us about the God OF THE BIBLE. But the starting point was framed for us by the OP which did not specify any particular God.

Well, if you mentioned this in an earlier post, I am ignorant of that and I apologize. But, this is a revolutionary overhaul of the post I did respond to.

Oh no. You are not about to define God according to something you already think you know about him.

Oh yes, I most definitely am.

This is the crux. I believe it is God's passionate desire for us. Now, I am not suggesting we think to know all about Him and that is absurd.

You bet I am here to "define God" (to some extent) and you can bet I am convinced this is His passionate desire.

To think the right tack is to forego ANY definition of Him is synonymous with insisting, "I cannot possibly know Him at all" and that is completely contrary to what i see as one of the most foundational biblical concepts as it is expressed in John 17:3.


Blessings,

Tony

 

[Albion]

Well, if you mentioned this in an earlier post, I am ignorant of that and I apologize. But, this is a revolutionary overhaul of the post I did respond to.

I did make that point--or thought I was making it--in an earlier post. IOW, the whole picture, from our POV, has to take in all that we know of God, and that means the god of the Bible. BUT the OP started with a basic, non-sectarian question that any seeker or non-believer might ask.

We cannot just start citing the Bible to such an inquirer and expect that we're done. First, it's necessary to address the logic of theism itself. You see what I mean.

 

[o2bwise]

Yeah, Albion, we're cool then (by that I mean on similar ground).

Except possibly for another thing. I do happen to believe that when what one thinks the Bible says is truth is antagonistic with one's reason, it is even God's desire that reason should supercede.

Perhaps another way of putting it is that part of what constitutes the legitimate process of truly being transformed by the Word of God is that reason is satisfied in the process.

 

[Der Alte]

I agree that the one who created the universe gets to set the rules, and that these are good rules, and that I have broken quite a few of them. I can accept that I may be deserving of hell. I just don't see how.

From what you have told me, this punishment is just because God is incapable of giving an unjust punishment, that makes sense and I agree with that. What I'm wondering is if that is enough for you or any other person identifying themselves as Christians, to feel deserving of such a punishment from a being who has set the standard so high.

As far as I know, I have taken the steps necessary for salvation. But I wonder if I am truly saved, if I am having questions such as these. Which is more or less, my reason for the question.

Unless Jesus was not telling the truth, if you have sincerely believed on the name of Jesus you are saved, no ifs, ands, or buts.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.​

 

[Albion]

I agree that the one who created the universe gets to set the rules, and that these are good rules, and that I have broken quite a few of them. I can accept that I may be deserving of hell. I just don't see how.

You just said that you broke God's rules (as have all of us). How can you then say that you don't think you're deserving of hell? My assumption is that you think SOME consequence has to come from disobeying God's rules but not something that awful. Would this be correct to say?

If so, my answer still has to be just about as was said before. It's not up to us to set the punishment, not any more than it's our prerogative to set the rules. And no, God might not be as easy-going on backsliders as we'd hope our boss will be or our teachers, when we violate policies. He could throw the eternal book at us.

But as others here have been trying to nudge me into saying, it's almost a moot point. Yes, we deserve anything we might get But God knows we can't keep the rules and so has provided a way to escape the punishment by simply throwing ourselves upon the merits his Son has won for us. In short, there's no reason to translate what God COULD do into what we face, since that has already been amended.

You could, of course, worry about those who DO NOT accept Christ and what he offers to us, but we really do not know exactly what the nature of the afterlife is like, either at the good end of it or the bad end, so there's no point in worrying about it, not any more than trying to puzzle out how long "eternity" will be. Some things are simply beyond our capacities in this life.
From what you have told me, this punishment is just because God is incapable of giving an unjust punishment, that makes sense and I agree with that. What I'm wondering is if that is enough for you or any other person identifying themselves as Christians, to feel deserving of such a punishment from a being who has set the standard so high.

As far as I know, I have taken the steps necessary for salvation. But I wonder if I am truly saved, if I am having questions such as these. Which is more or less, my reason for the question.[/QUOTE]

 

[o2bwise]

You just said that you broke God's rules (as have all of us). How can you then say that you don't think you're deserving of hell?

Are ya serious?

Here's a rough analogy. An earthly government says the penalty for stealing a loaf of bread is a day in the slammer. Someone acquiesces that this is fair.

Another person comes along and exclaims:

You just said that you stole a loaf of bread. How can you then say that you don't think you are deserving of having your fingernails pulled out, your toenailes pulled out, and then being placed in a body stretcher and being pulled until your torso is severed?

 

[cuja1]

You just said that you broke God's rules (as have all of us). How can you then say that you don't think you're deserving of hell? My assumption is that you think SOME consequence has to come from disobeying God's rules but not something that awful. Would this be correct to say?

If so, my answer still has to be just about as was said before. It's not up to us to set the punishment, not any more than it's our prerogative to set the rules. And no, God might not be as easy-going on backsliders as we'd hope our boss will be or our teachers, when we violate policies. He could throw the eternal book at us.

But as others here have been trying to nudge me into saying, it's almost a moot point. Yes, we deserve anything we might get But God knows we can't keep the rules and so has provided a way to escape the punishment by simply throwing ourselves upon the merits his Son has won for us. In short, there's no reason to translate what God COULD do into what we face, since that has already been amended.

You could, of course, worry about those who DO NOT accept Christ and what he offers to us, but we really do not know exactly what the nature of the afterlife is like, either at the good end of it or the bad end, so there's no point in worrying about it, not any more than trying to puzzle out how long "eternity" will be. Some things are simply beyond our capacities in this life.
From what you have told me, this punishment is just because God is incapable of giving an unjust punishment, that makes sense and I agree with that. What I'm wondering is if that is enough for you or any other person identifying themselves as Christians, to feel deserving of such a punishment from a being who has set the standard so high.

As far as I know, I have taken the steps necessary for salvation. But I wonder if I am truly saved, if I am having questions such as these. Which is more or less, my reason for the question.

[/quote]

That's correct, I think hell is too harsh of a penalty. Nevertheless, based on what you've said, the question may not need to be answered any further. I probably still need to figure out if I'm saved or not but that's a question for a different thread I suppose.

I think I'll go to the other "hell" thread and discuss what I think hell is like.

Thanks for your help

 

[1213]

Do you mean annihilation or eternal suffering?

I believe hell is final death. And I believe it means person doesn’t live anymore. But I think it is possible that there remains something of them in the hell, body for example, it just doesn’t live anymore and therefore it don’t feel or do anything. Therefore I don’t say it is neither annihilation nor suffering.

However, I may be wrong about this and I recommend people to study what the Bible really tells about this. If I am wrong and all people get eternal life, although Jesus says that eternal life is for righteous, then I think it will be eternal suffering for them, because they want to be without God and godless life is suffering, because godless people do evil things that make others suffer. I think we can see that well in this life. Atheists often think that God does not exist, because of the suffering in this world. It shows that people understand well that with God we would not have suffering. We wouldn’t have suffering, if we would be loyal to God and wouldn’t reject him and so his will that is to love others. So if people live eternally in hell, it is suffering for them, because they are without God. But it is not bad, because they don’t want to be with God, because they love more evil than good.

 

[Hillsage]

I'm not opposed to any of us saying that, but I was reluctant to go into it--the message of Christianity--before we had settled why it is not unthinkable that God might eternally punish those who die in their sins, estranged from him.

OK then, I'll be more patient too. Just let me just say this then, in regard to the OP. There can be no "eternal torment in hell" because the word defined as eternal in many bibles doesn't mean eternal. And the English word 'hell' was invented in 725 AD and applied inconsistently preserving a formerly 'minor' theological POV. That's why there are respected translations which never use the word eternity/eternal/everlasting in regard to the punishment of man for sin. And translations which also do not have the word 'hell' in them at all.

IOW, beware of the false 'profits' of many interpretations. They are filled with 'grave' misconceptions.

So, according to those 'more critically and consistently translated' bibles; I believe eternal purposeless torture (what it has come to be) cannot be God's plan for MOST of His beloved creation. If it is, then His plan was too weak or He made His adversary too strong...IMO. There, now I'm back on topic for a thread moving too fast for me.

 

[Albion]

OK then, I'll be more patient too. Just let me just say this then, in regard to the OP. There can be no "eternal torment in hell" because the word defined as eternal in many bibles doesn't mean eternal. And the English word 'hell' was invented in 725 AD and applied inconsistently preserving a formerly 'minor' theological POV. That's why there are respected translations which never use the word eternity/eternal/everlasting in regard to the punishment of man for sin. And translations which also do not have the word 'hell' in them at all.

IMHO, it doesn't matter at all if we use the word Hell or some other one. And as for it not being "eternal," that's a possibility, but there is enough evidence on both sides of that issue for the prudent person to say it's not settled. So he continues to worry and feel he has to deal with it.

Beyond that, the question of the thread is not settled merely by denying Hell. We were asked about that. Hell. I guess you could say, "Don't worry. There ain't none." Would this satisfy Cuja1, who is thinking of the traditional Hell? Maybe, but I'm thinking that it won't because it's that one he asked about.

 

[Der Alte]

OK then, I'll be more patient too. Just let me just say this then, in regard to the OP. There can be no "eternal torment in hell" because the word defined as eternal in many bibles doesn't mean eternal. And the English word 'hell' was invented in 725 AD and applied inconsistently preserving a formerly 'minor' theological POV. That's why there are respected translations which never use the word eternity/eternal/everlasting in regard to the punishment of man for sin. And translations which also do not have the word 'hell' in them at all.

Irrelevant and wrong. To be totally honest none of the English words in our Bibles were in the original Greek and Hebrew but the English translations correctly represent the meaning of the original languages. Here is a quote from the Jewish Encycloepdia and the Talmud.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).

But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]

As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).

Jewish Encyclopedia Online
====================================================================
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.

The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."

Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

Aionio's" - A Lexical Survey

Nine language sources cited. Fourteen total references! 1. NAS Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries, 2. Thayer’s Lexicon, 3. Vine’s Expository of Biblical Words, 3 references, 4. Louw-Nida Greek English Lexicon of the NT based on Semantic Domains, 2 references, 5. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, 6. Abridged Greek lexicon, Liddell-Scott, 7. Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, 3 references, 8. Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker Greek English Lexicon of the NT and other Early Christian Literature, 9. Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the NT.

Aion, Aionios and the lexicons:
166. αιωνιος aionios; from 165; agelong, eternal:— eternal(66), eternity(1), forever(1).

Thomas, Robert L., Th.D., General Editor, New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries,​

166 aionios- αιωνιος
1) without beginning and end, what has always been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

---Thayers​

2. &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; aionios [166] "describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in <Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 1:2>; or undefined because endless as in <Rom. 16:26>, and the other sixty-six places in the NT.

"The predominant meaning of &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; , that in which it is used everywhere in the NT, save the places noted above, may be seen in <2 Cor. 4:18>, where it is set in contrast with proskairos, lit., `for a season,' and in <Philem. 15>, where only in the NT it is used without a noun. Moreover it is used of persons and things which are in their nature endless, as, e. g., of God, <Rom. 16:26>; of His power, <1 Tim. 6:16>, and of His glory, <1 Pet. 5:10>; of the Holy Spirit, <Heb. 9:14>; of the redemption effected by Christ, <Heb. 9:12>, and of the consequent salvation of men, <5:9>, as well as of His future rule, <2 Pet. 1:11>, which is elsewhere declared to be without end, <Luke 1:33>; of the life received by those who believe in Christ, <John 3:16>, concerning whom He said, `they shall never perish,' <10:28>, and of the resurrection body, <2 Cor. 5:1>, elsewhere said to be `immortal,' <1 Cor. 15:53>, in which that life will be finally realized, <Matt. 25:46; Titus 1:2>.

&#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; is also used of the sin that `hath never forgiveness,' <Mark 3:29>, and of the judgment of God, from which there is no appeal, <Heb. 6:2>, and of the fire, which is one of its instruments, <Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7>, and which is elsewhere said to be `unquenchable,' <Mark 9:43>.
"The use of &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; here shows that the punishment referred to in <2 Thes. 1:9>, is not temporary, but final, and, accordingly, the phraseology shows that its purpose is not remedial but retributive."

From Notes on Thessalonians, by Hogg and Vine, pp 232, 233. (from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words) (Copyright (C) 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)​

67.96 &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; aji>vdio", on; aijwvnio", on: pertaining to an unlimited duration of time - ‘eternal.’
aji>vdio"ò h{ te aji>vdio" aujtou` duvnami" kai; qeiovth" ‘his eternal power and divine nature’ Ro 1.20.
aijwvnio"ò blhqh`nai eij" to; pu`r to; aijwvnion ‘be thrown into the eternal fire’ Mt 18.8; tou` aijwnivou qeou` ‘of the eternal God’ Ro 16.26.

The most frequent use of &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; in the NT is with zwhv ‘life,’ for example, i{na pa`" oJ pisteuvwn ejn aujtw/` e[ch/ zwh;n aijwvnion ‘so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life’ Jn 3.15. In combination with zwhv there is evidently not only a temporal element, but also a qualitative distinction. In such contexts, &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; evidently carries certain implications associated with &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; in relationship to divine and supernatural attributes. If one translates ‘eternal life’ as simply ‘never dying,’ there may be serious misunderstandings, since persons may assume that ‘never dying’ refers only to physical existence rather than to ‘spiritual death.’ Accordingly, some translators have rendered ‘eternal life’ as ‘unending real life,’ so as to introduce a qualitative distinction.

Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989.​

&#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; aionios. An adjective meaning “eternal,” and found in the LXX in Pss. 24; 77:5; Gen. 21:33, aionios in the NT is used 1. of God (Rom. 16:26), 2. of divine possessions and gifts (2 Cor. 4:18; Heb. 9:14; 1 Pet. 5:10; 1 Tim. 6:16; 2 Th. 2:16, and 3. of the eternal kingdom (2 Pet. 1:11), inheritance (Heb. 9:15), body (2 Cor. 5:1), and even judgment (Heb. 6:2, though cf. Mt. 18:8; 2 Th. 1:9, where the sense is perhaps “unceasing”).

Kittel, Gerhard, and Friedrich, Gerhard, Editors, The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Abridged in One Volume, (Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company) 1985.​

&#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; aionios ", ov and a, ov, lasting for an age (aion 3), Plat.: ever-lasting, eternal, Id.

Liddell, H. G., and Scott, Abridged Greek-English Lexicon, (Oxford: Oxford University Press) 1992.​

166 aionios { ahee-o’-nee-os} &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; from 165; TDNT - 1:208,31; adj
AV - eternal 42, everlasting 25, the world began + 5550 2, since the world began + 5550 1, for ever 1; 71
GK - 173 { aionios }
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995.​

CL The Gk. word &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957; aion, which is probably derived from aei, … It thus appeared appropriate to later philosophers to use the word both for the dim and distant past, the beginning of the world, and for the far future, eternity (e.g. Plato, Tim. 37d).

Plato (Timoeus, ed. Steph. 3, 37, or ed. Baiter, Orell. et Winck. 712) says, speaking of the universe: …The nature therefore of the animal (living being) was eternal (aionios, before aidios), and this indeed it was impossible to adapt to what was produced (to genneto, to what had a beginning); he thinks to make a moveable image of eternity (aionos), and in adoring the heavens he makes of the eternity permanent in unity a certain eternal image moving in number, … And after unfolding this, he says (p. 38): "But these forms of time imitating eternity (aiona), and rolling round according to number, have had a beginning (gegonen).... For that pattern exists for all eternity (panta aiona estin on), but on the other hand, that which is perpetual (dia telous) throughout all time has had a beginning, and is, and will be." … Aion is what is properly eternal, in contrast with a divine imitation of it in ages of time, the result of the creative action of God which imitated the uncreate as nearly as He could in created ages.. ]

In Plato the term is developed so as to represent a timeless, immeasurable and transcendent super-time, an idea of time in itself. Plutarch and the earlier Stoics appropriate this understanding, and from it the Mysteries of Aion, the god of eternity, could be celebrated in Alexandria, and gnosticism could undertake its own speculations on time.
* * *

NIDNTT Colin Brown​

Wherefore neither in place are things there formed by nature; nor does time cause them to grow old: neither is there any change of anything of those things which are arranged beyond the outermost orbit; but unchangeable, and subject to no influence, having the best and most independent life, they continue for all eternity (aiona). … According to the same word (logon) the completeness of the whole heaven, and the completeness which embraces all time and infinitude is aion, having received this name from existing for ever (apo tou aei einai), immortal (athanatos, undying), and divine." In 10 he goes on to shew that that beginning to be (genesthai) involves the not existing always, which I refer to as shewing what he means by aion. He is proving the unchangeable eternity of the visible universe. That is no business of mine; but it shews what he means by eternity (aion). It cannot be aidion and genesthai at the same time, when, as in Plato, aidios is used as equivalent to aionios​

 

[Der Alte]

Unlike others I provide evidence.

Philo, the sentence is in De Mundo, 7, en aioni de oute pareleluthen ouden, oute mellei, alla monon iphesteken. Such a definition needs no explanation: in eternity nothing is passed, nothing is about to be, but only subsists. This has the importance of being of the date and Hellenistic Greek of the New Testament, as the others give the regular, and at the same time philosophical force of the word, aion, aionios. Eternity, unchangeable, with no 'was' nor 'will be,' is its proper force, that it can be applied to the whole existence of a thing, so that nothing of its nature was before true or after is true, to telos to periechon. But its meaning is eternity, and eternal. … That is, things that are for a time are put in express contrast with aionia, which are not for a time, be it age or ages, but eternal. Nothing can be more decisive of its positive and specific meaning.

0166 aionios &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; without beginning or end, eternal, everlasting
LEH lxx lexicon
UBS GNT Dict. # 169 (Str#166)
aionios eternal (of quality rather than of time); unending, everlasting, for all time
&#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; (iva Pla., Tim. 38b; Jer 39:40; Ezk 37:26; 2 Th 2:16; Hb 9:12; as v.l. Ac 13:48; 2 Pt 1:11; Bl-D. §59, 2; Mlt.-H. 157), on eternal (since Hyperid. 6, 27; Pla.; inscr., pap., LXX; Ps.-Phoc. 112; Test. 12 Patr.; standing epithet for princely, esp. imperial power: Dit., Or. Index VIII; BGU 176; 303; 309; Sb 7517, 5 [211/2 ad] kuvrio" aij.; al. in pap.; Jos., Ant. 7, 352).
1. without beginning crovnoi" aij. long ages ago Ro 16:25; pro; crovnwn aij. before time began 2 Ti 1:9; Tit 1:2 (on crovno" aij. cf. Dit., Or. 248, 54; 383, 10).
2. without beginning or end; of God (Ps.-Pla., Tim. Locr. 96c qeo;n t. aijwvnion; Inscr. in the Brit. Mus. 894 aij. k. ajqavnato"; Gen 21:33; Is 26:4; 40:28; Bar 4:8 al.; Philo, Plant. 8; 74; Sib. Or., fgm. 3, 17 and 4; PGM 1, 309; 13, 280) Ro 16:26; of the Holy Spirit in Christ Hb 9:14. qrovno" aij. 1 Cl 65:2 (cf. 1 Macc 2:57).
3. without end (Diod. S. 1, 1, 5; 5, 73, 1; 15, 66, 1 dovxa aij. everlasting fame; in Diod. S. 1, 93, 1 the Egyptian dead are said to have passed to their aij. …keep someone forever Phlm 15 (cf. Job 40:28). …On the other hand of eternal life (Maximus Tyr. 6, 1d qeou` zwh; aij.; Diod. S. 8, 15, 3 life meta; to;n qavnaton lasts eij" a{panta aijw`na; Da 12:2; 4 Macc 15:3; PsSol 3, 12; Philo, …carav IPhld inscr.; doxavzesqai aijwnivw/ e[rgw/ be glorified by an everlasting deed IPol 8:1. DHill, Gk. Words and Hebr. Mngs. ’67, 186-201. M-M.

Bauer, Walter, Gingrich, F. Wilbur, and Danker, Frederick W., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, (Chicago: University of Chicago Press) 1979.​

BIBLE STUDY MANUALS - AIONIOS -- AN IN DEPTH STUDY

&#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962;
• Strong's - Greek 165

• NRSV (the uses of the word in various contexts in the NRSV text):
again, age, course, end, eternal, forever, permanent, time, world, worlds

• CGED (A Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament, by Barclay M. Newman, New York: United Bible Societies, 1993, page 5):
age; world order; eternity (ap aion or pro aion, from the beginning; eis aion, and the strengthened form eis tous aion, ton aion, always, forever);

• The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology [NIDNTT], Volume 3 (edited by Colin Brown, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan, 1978, page 827, 830):

In Plato the term [aion] is developed so as to represent a timeless, immeasurable and transcendent super-time, an idea of time in itself. Plutarch and other earlier Stoics appropriate this understanding, and from it the Mysteries of Aion, the god of eternity, could be celebrated in Alexandria, and gnosticism could undertake its own speculations on time.

The statements of the Johannine [John, 1 John, 2 John, 3 John] writings, … reveal a strong inclination to conceive of a timeless, because post-temporal, eternity… As in the OT [Old Testament], these statements reveal the background conviction that God's life never ends, i.e. that everything belonging to him can also never come to an end…

aion - &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957; - age, world
A. "for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity; the worlds, universe; period of time, age."

Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995, [Online] Available: Logos Library System.

• aionion, aionios – &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#957;, &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; - eternal
B. "aionios," the adjective corresponding, denoting eternal. It is used of that which in nature is endless, as, e.g., of God, (Rom. 16:26), His power, (1 Tim. 6:16), His glory, (1 Pet. 5:10), the Holy Spirit, (Heb. 9:14), redemption, (Heb. 9:12), salvation, (5:9), life in Christ, (John 3:16), the resurrection body, (2 Cor. 5:1), the future rule of Christ, (2 Pet. 1:11), which is declared to be without end, (Luke 1:33), of sin that never has forgiveness, (Mark 3:29), the judgment of God, (Heb. 6:2), and of fire, one of its instruments, (Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7)."
i. Rom. 16:26 - " . . .according to the commandment of the eternal God. . ."
ii. 1 Tim. 6:16 - ". . . To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen."
iii. 1 Pet. 5:10 - " . . . who called you to His eternal glory in Christ,"
iv. Mark 3:29 - " . . . never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin."
v. etc.

SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, Available: Logos Library System.

• "describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 1:2; or undefined because endless as in Rom. 16:26, and the other sixty–six places in the N.T.
A. Rom. 16:25 - " . . which has been kept secret for long ages past,"
B. Rom 16:26 - ". . . according to the commandment of the eternal God,"
C. 2 Tim. 1:9 - ". . . which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,"
D. Titus 1:2 - "the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised" long ages ago"

SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, [Online] Available: Logos Library System)

• Eis tous aionios ton aionion – &#949;&#953;&#962; &#964;&#959;&#965;&#962; &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#945;&#962; &#964;&#969;&#957; &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#969;&#959;&#957; - Forever and Ever, Lit. "into the age of the ages"
A. "unlimited duration of time, with particular focus upon the future - ‘always, forever, forever and ever, eternally."
B. Phil. 4:20 - ". . .to our God and Father be the glory forever and ever."
C. Rev. 19:3 - " . . .Her smoke rises up forever and ever."
D. Rev. 20:20 - "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

SOURCE: Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989, Available: Logos Library System.​