Do you have to be a good servant to be saved?

[BNR32FAN]

Good day, Marius

This kind of stuff always brings me back to Augustine..

Augustine (354-430): "Perish the thought, however, that Dr. Christ should lose in those whom he foreknew and predestined; because they are the ones he also called; and those he called are the ones he also justified; while those he justified are the ones he also glorified. Curb your vices, quench your lusts, let the devil and his angels be tormented with frustration; if God is for us, who can be against us"? (Rom 8:29-31). John E. Rotelle, O.S.A., ed., WSA, Part 3, Vol. 6, trans. Edmund Hill, O.P., Sermons, Sermon 229E.3 (New Rochelle: New City Press, 1993), p. 283.

Thanks for the reminder.

Bill

Here’s another quote from him.

I should wish that no one would so embrace all my views as to follow me, except in those things in which he should see me not to have erred. For I am now writing treatises in which I have undertaken to retract my smaller works, for the purpose of demonstrating that even I myself have not in all things followed myself; but I think that, with God’s mercy, I have written progressively, and not begun from perfection; since, indeed, I speak more arrogantly than truly, if even now I say that I have at length in this age of mine arrived at perfection, without any error in what I write. But the difference is in the extent and the subject of an error, and in the facility with which any one corrects it, or the pertinacity with which one endeavours to defend his error. Certainly there is good hope of that man whom the last day of this life shall find so progressing that whatever was wanting to his progress may be added to him, and that he should be adjudged rather to need perfecting than punishment.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The spirit is still their and will always be there until the day of redemption.

“Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you. Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma. But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”
‭‭Ephesians‬‬ ‭4:30-32‬ ‭5:1-6 NASB‬‬

Who is Paul writing to?

“Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus:”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭NASB‬‬

He is writing to the saints in Ephesus who are faithful in Christ. And yet he warms them that even tho they are sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption they must not turn back to a sinful way of life or they will receive the wrath of God on the sons of disobedience which is they will have no inheritance in the kingdom of God. The very same inheritance that Peter said is reserved for us IN HEAVEN. All the evidence has been put right before you, you just refuse to accept it. I’m sorry but the Church was in fact right since the beginning. In Matthew 16:18 Jesus said the gates of hell will not prevail over His church. This means Jesus’ church must exist constantly and uninterrupted since its creation. Not a single Christian church taught eternal security before 1600 AD.

 

[Daniel C]

“Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you. Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma. But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”
‭‭Ephesians‬‬ ‭4:30-32‬ ‭5:1-6 NASB‬‬

Who is Paul writing to?

“Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus:”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭NASB‬‬

He is writing to the saints in Ephesus who are faithful in Christ. And yet he warms them that even tho they are sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption they must not turn back to a sinful way of life or they will receive the wrath of God on the sons of disobedience which is they will have no inheritance in the kingdom of God. The very same inheritance that Peter said is reserved for us IN HEAVEN. All the evidence has been put right before you, you just refuse to accept it. I’m sorry but the Church was in fact right since the beginning. In Matthew 16:18 Jesus said the gates of hell will not prevail over His church. This means Jesus’ church must exist constantly and uninterrupted since its creation. Not a single Christian church taught eternal security before 1600 AD.

Paul always wrote to the leadership of the churches,that doesn't mean the message should be taken out of context by ones own desire to fit it into a works salvation belief.

He says nothing about the saved losing their salvation in these verses.

 

[Daniel C]

The gift is eternal life. No one receives eternal life in this world. Did you read post 229?

1 Peter 1:3-5 Peter says the inheritance we receive in heaven is irrevocable not the hope of salvation. He is saying that once we receive eternal life we can never lose it. He even says we do not receive it until we reach heaven.

“to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭1:4‬ ‭NASB‬‬

For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:5‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Notice Colossians 1:22-23 Paul tells Christians who are reconciled salvation is contingent on remaining in the faith.

“And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach- if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1:21-23‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called "Today," so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭3:12-14‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭4:1‬ ‭NASB‬‬

1 John 2:19

We are born again in this life,through faith in Jesus Christ, after that we are saved and sealed until the day of redemption.

 

[zoidar]

...

...

I don't see any of you change your view on this. Of course, you are welcome to keep debating. Just saying what I see. God bless both of you! Thank God we are not saved by correct theology, but through Christ.

 

[Daniel C]

It says in Revelations that the unfaithful will go to the lake of fire. You don't think that includes people who once believed?
"Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God."

"Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,"


"And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another."

But cowards, unbelievers, the corrupt, murderers, the immoral, those who practice witchcraft, idol worshipers, and all liars—their fate is in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.

It doesn't matter that they once believed. Only believers get eternal life.
John 3:16...it says those who believe, not those who used to believe. Taken all together these verses can not mean a person that believes at one time is given unconditional eternal life.

Your Bible translation is different to mine. But about people ''departing'' I think it's clear following on in the chapter this is referring to people who did not believe to begin with,not the saved who lost salvation:

1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
.......
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

So a ditinction is being drwn betewn the saved and the aspiring believers.


''12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.''

So this is unbelief, not salvation loss.


''But cowards, unbelievers, the corrupt, murderers, the immoral, those who practice witchcraft, idol worshipers, and all liars—their fate is in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.''

This list is what prevents a person from believing in Christ,not losing salvation after saved. Once a person is born again they have received the eternal gift of God.


You don't trust God so you thik you can earn salvation with your own merit,with works or effort. Deal with this point:

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

 

[Daniel C]

I don't see any of you change your view on this. Of course, you are welcome to keep debating. Just saying what I see. God bless both of you! Thank God we are not saved by correct theology, but through Christ.

I would agree with you some will not change their minds. However onlookers might see this and observe when people reference church fathers who are not the authority of God,personal commentary unrelated to the Bible and misinterpret scripture they will see where the truth is.

Blessing you too.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Paul always wrote to the leadership of the churches,that doesn't mean the message should be taken out of context by ones own desire to fit it into a works salvation belief.

He says nothing about the saved losing their salvation in these verses.

You just refuse to accept the truth that has been taught since the very beginning of Christianity.

 

[BNR32FAN]

We are born again in this life,through faith in Jesus Christ, after that we are saved and sealed until the day of redemption.

See the problem is that the scriptures specifically state that some will fall away from faith but reformists say they never really had faith to begin with. You see your contradicting what the scriptures ACTUALLY SAY in order to make them coincide with your beliefs. Is that really sola scriptura? No it’s not, not when you have to change or ignore certain parts that don’t coincide with your beliefs. John 15:2, John 15:6, Romans 11:17-23, and many more that I have provided destroy the doctrine of eternal security.

 

[BNR32FAN]

We are born again in this life,through faith in Jesus Christ, after that we are saved and sealed until the day of redemption.

Why do you believe in a theology that has absolutely nothing to support it from the early church writings? Do you believe that all Christian churches were teaching a false gospel until Martin Luther came along 1600 years after the church was established?

 

[Daniel C]

See the problem is that the scriptures specifically state that some will fall away from faith but reformists say they never really had faith to begin with. You see your contradicting what the scriptures ACTUALLY SAY in order to make them coincide with your beliefs. Is that really sola scriptura? No it’s not, not when you have to change or ignore certain parts that don’t coincide with your beliefs. John 15:2, John 15:6, Romans 11:17-23, and many more that I have provided destroy the doctrine of eternal security.

I think I have addressed the same parables from multiply members,so i will not be covering the same ground,again. And yes I refuse to believe in works salvation because that's not what Jesus taught.

I think the Catholic Church dominated Christendom and forced Christians to believe in the churches interpretation during the time they had power. If a person disagreed with the churches interpretation of scripture they were killed or tortured,so the churches method of dealing with dissidents was not to lead like Jesus but to use violence and intimidation,as they had the authority to carry out these actions they went unchallenged for centuries. That is why the works salvation prevailed for so long,the church teached sacraments,so everyone was forced to believe in sacraments or they're in trouble. The church is wrong on many of its doctrines including salvation.

Can you deal with this new point,directly?
(Romans)
''24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.''

 

[BBAS 64]

Here’s another quote from him.

I should wish that no one would so embrace all my views as to follow me, except in those things in which he should see me not to have erred. For I am now writing treatises in which I have undertaken to retract my smaller works, for the purpose of demonstrating that even I myself have not in all things followed myself; but I think that, with God’s mercy, I have written progressively, and not begun from perfection; since, indeed, I speak more arrogantly than truly, if even now I say that I have at length in this age of mine arrived at perfection, without any error in what I write. But the difference is in the extent and the subject of an error, and in the facility with which any one corrects it, or the pertinacity with which one endeavours to defend his error. Certainly there is good hope of that man whom the last day of this life shall find so progressing that whatever was wanting to his progress may be added to him, and that he should be adjudged rather to need perfecting than punishment.

Good day, BRN32Fan

Oh yes his retractions been awhile but I do not think he retracted his exegetical work on Romans in that text. If you have a instance that covers Romans I will be more than happy to review.

In Him,.

Bill

 

[Root of Jesse]

I will have to answer this lot tomorrow as it's getting late here. I don't believe I can lose my salvation as I was never good enough to earn it in the first place, these verses just talk about people who aren't saved and need to be or will be saved and lapse back into sin again like the dog going back to his vomit again. Until tomorrow.

you were never good enough to merit heaven, but because you follow the will of the Father, you must feed the hungry, clothe the naked, house the homeless, comfort the sick and in prison. If you don't, when you knock on heaven's door, Jesus will say "I never knew you."

 

[Root of Jesse]

I think I have addressed the same parables from multiply members,so i will not be covering the same ground,again. And yes I refuse to believe in works salvation because that's not what Jesus taught.

Well it's not 'works salvation we believe. Good works proceed from our salvation, we don't do good works to merit heaven.

I think the Catholic Church dominated Christendom and forced Christians to believe in the churches interpretation during the time they had power. If a person disagreed with the churches interpretation of scripture they were killed or tortured,so the churches method of dealing with dissents was not to lead like Jesus but to use violence and intimidation,as they had the authority to carry out these actions they went unchallenged for centuries. That is why the works salvation prevailed for so long,the church teached sacraments,so everyone was forced to believe in sacraments or they're in trouble. The church is wrong on many of its doctrines including salvation.

So many falsehoods here, so I'll address one. The church didn't just kill people who disagreed. The Church was trying to save souls, not send them to hell. The sacraments are not works salvation, rather they are the work of the Holy Spirit. We baptize because the Holy Spirit moves us. We learn our faith (Confirmation) because the Holy Spirit moves us. We believe in the Eucharist because it is the body and blood of Christ, made so by the Holy Spirit.

Can you deal with this new point,directly?
(Romans)
''24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.''

Works of the law are not the works we do when we are saved.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Good question. I would gather we would determine such a status from a self examination or confrontation.
And
We would be the Ephesian church in Revelation 2. The command is to go back to our first love which is Christ. Meaning go back to the Cross.

And try to be a better person. We all struggle every day. We are not just !BANG! a good servant. We miss opportunities every day. We should strive to be a better version of ourselves every day by asking God to help us do just that.

 

[Daniel C]

you were never good enough to merit heaven, but because you follow the will of the Father, you must feed the hungry, clothe the naked, house the homeless, comfort the sick and in prison. If you don't, when you knock on heaven's door, Jesus will say "I never knew you."

Actually the people who ''never knew'' are the ones who chose works salvation,which is not what Jesus asked for:

(Matthew)

''Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.''


''Wonderful works'' in their own eyes,iniquity in Gods eyes,hence they were rejected.

Salvation is by faith,a free eternal gift of God that we receive when we are born again.

 

[fhansen]

When you are saved you become a good servant.

Throughout our lives there are many choices and struggles involved. There's no guarantee that we'll remain a good servant, that we'll remain saved; we can fall back down into the pit. Justification is more than a state of forgiveness; it's a state of justice, from which we're expected to remain in that state-and grow in it even. In the Parable of the Talents, the servant who refused to "invest" what was given lost his place in the kingdom.

 

[Daniel C]

Well it's not 'works salvation we believe. Good works proceed from our salvation, we don't do good works to merit heaven.So many falsehoods here, so I'll address one. The church didn't just kill people who disagreed. The Church was trying to save souls, not send them to hell. The sacraments are not works salvation, rather they are the work of the Holy Spirit. We baptize because the Holy Spirit moves us. We learn our faith (Confirmation) because the Holy Spirit moves us. We believe in the Eucharist because it is the body and blood of Christ, made so by the Holy Spirit.Works of the law are not the works we do when we are saved.

What does a person have to do to get to heaven?

 

[fhansen]

Actually the people who ''never knew'' are the ones who chose works salvation,which is not what Jesus asked for:

(Matthew)

''Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.''


''Wonderful works'' in their own eyes,iniquity in Gods eyes,hence they were rejected.

Salvation is by faith,a free eternal gift of God that we receive when we are born again.

So if we resist grace, if we refuse to the "good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do" (Eph 2:10) then we're still in good stead? Heck, in Matt 25 there were those who didn't even know they had acted according to God's will but were judged to be sheep based on what they had done- for "the least of these".

 

[fhansen]

What does a person have to do to get to heaven?

Whatever God asks, with the grace He gives to accomplish it. Then He decides how well we've done-with what we've been given.