Do you have to be a good servant to be saved?

[Daniel C]

First, I'm not works based. Second, you tried to explain the part about being thrown into the fire in a way that made no sense given the context.
It isn't just one verse that says one must continue in faith in order to be saved.
Of course, Jesus is not a literal plant and we aren't made of wood, but that doesn't cancel out the plain meaning of being cast into the fire.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. 17 For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last,[e] just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”[f]


18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.

If you are OSAS, you have to believe that this faith from first to last isn't needed, that it is only needed at the moment of salvation. We have to live by faith or what? We become the godless who suppress the truth.

Cor 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,2 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Who are the righteous? Paul already told us, those who live by faith from first to last. How does one become unrighteous? By either never having faith, or by not continuing to live by faith.

What do you make of this? another of Pauls writings:

(Galatians 2:16)

''Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.''

 

[Daniel C]

Please explain, saved from what?

Saved from Hell.

(Jude)
21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:

23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

 

[Daniel C]

I never said you are not saved. I would never say that to anyone. Please forgive me but you must’ve misunderstood my point friend. I said no one receives salvation until they die. What is salvation? It is eternal life. We do not actually receive eternal life until we either die or Jesus returns. The only thing we have right now is the hope of receiving eternal life but since salvation is conditional we do not have an assurance unless we abide in Christ. We can still at any point in our life choose to turn away from God and back to a sinful lifestyle or even turn to doubt and unbelief. These things happen all the time.

You ''hope'' because you don't fully trust God so your salvation is in question. If you did trust God you wouldn't believe you needed to supplement Christs finished work on the Cross.

 

[Daniel C]

Can you show anyplace in God's Word that Judas the betrayer "tasted of the heavenlies" ?

No. Judas was in the group but in his heart a disbeliever,that's what i'm trying to say.

 

[Daniel C]

And as noted, mankind fails.

So do some of those who follow Jesus, then turn back to 'Egypt' for the comfort or pleasures or money or friendship of the world.

Those types don't ''turn back'' they were never saved in the first place.

It's saved eternally or never saved.

 

[charsan]

But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
1 Thess 5:8

Salvation in St. Paul was never taught as we already have it, but we hope for final Salvation.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You ''hope'' because you don't fully trust God so your salvation is in question. If you did trust God you wouldn't believe you needed to supplement Christs finished work on the Cross.

Please read post 229

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Those types don't ''turn back'' they were never saved in the first place.

It's saved eternally or never saved.

This (overall) discussion is based on a false idea of salvation. Thus, it won't get anywhere.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

No. Judas was in the group but in his heart a disbeliever,that's what i'm trying to say.

Why are you trying to say that ?

Like many Jews, and gentiles, he apparently was a believer, but that did not save him, nor most gentiles today either.

 

[Daniel C]

Why are you trying to say that ?

Like many Jews, and gentiles, he apparently was a believer, but that did not save him, nor most gentiles today either.

Of course Judas was NOT a genuine believer. Jesus knew he was a fraud and a betrayer ahead of time as recorded in the upper room at the last supper:

''21 When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in spirit, and testified, and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.
22 Then the disciples looked one on another, doubting of whom he spake.
23 Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved.
24 Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him, that he should ask who it should be of whom he spake.
25 He then lying on Jesus' breast saith unto him, Lord, who is it?''

The Apostles didn't know Judas was a fraud and they had been with each other for three years!



26 Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.

27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

28 Now no man at the table knew for what intent he spake this unto him.

29 For some of them thought, because Judas had the bag, that Jesus had said unto him, Buy those things that we have need of against the feast; or, that he should give something to the

They didn't even believe Judas was traitor after Jesus told them the traitor is the one he will give the sop to, gives Judas the Sop, disbelief.

Judas was so effective at convincing those around him he was one of them he got a pass.

The problem with unsaved people is they still have the carnal mind and can't interpret scripture. Only the spirit of God within a person can do that.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

There is nothing in Scripture to say Judas was not a believer.
There may be many such "believers" today, who are not saved.

As written: Even the demons believe, and shudder in terror.

 

[renniks]

What do you make of this? another of Pauls writings:

(Galatians 2:16)

''Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.''

I think it is scripture and 100 percent truth. I never said works have a part in salvation. I said continuing to have faith does. A person can have faith and later reject the truth.

 

[BobRyan]

Luke 12
And the Lord said, “Who then is the faithful and sensible steward, whom his master will put in charge of his servants, to give them their rations at the proper time? 43 Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes. 44 Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 45 But if that slave says in his heart, ‘My master will be a long time in coming,’ and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk; 46 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers. 47 And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, 48 but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.

Paul also agrees with Christ on that point. see 1 Cor 6
7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded? 8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[Daniel C]

There is nothing in Scripture to say Judas was not a believer.
There may be many such "believers" today, who are not saved.

As written: Even the demons believe, and shudder in terror.

Nothing in scripture that says Judas didn't believe in Christ? Well I can't say I have an affinity for this character and you probably know him better than I do ,so i'll take your word for it. Altough he did betray him for thirty pieces of silver and was a thief so........white washed tomb.

Your quotation is not exactly scripture:

''Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.''
Not a question of salvation but identity. And you said you understood scripture?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

''Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.''
Not a question of salvation but identity. And you said you understood scripture?

Problem ?
I think you posted or implied that Judas the betrayer was not a believer.
Now you posted one of the verses that supports that he was a believer, but not saved.

Make up your own mind - was Judas a believer as Scripture indicates, or
was Judas not a believer as you indicated ?

 

[Daniel C]

I think it is scripture and 100 percent truth. I never said works have a part in salvation. I said continuing to have faith does. A person can have faith and later reject the truth.

Well when salvation is called an eternal gift I don't get how people mix that up for something that needs the flesh to sustain and perfect it. Not Biblical.

 

[Daniel C]

Problem ?
I think you posted or implied that Judas the betrayer was not a believer.
Now you posted one of the verses that supports that he was a believer, but not saved.

Make up your own mind - was Judas a believer as Scripture indicates, or
was Judas not a believer as you indicated ?

I never said Judas was a believer.

This thread is about eternal salvation. How do you think yours is holding up?

If you died tonight, how sure are you you'd to heaven?

 

[renniks]

Well when salvation is called an eternal gift I don't get how people mix that up for something that needs the flesh to sustain and perfect it. Not Biblical.

It says in Revelations that the unfaithful will go to the lake of fire. You don't think that includes people who once believed?
"Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God."

"Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,"


"And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another."

But cowards, unbelievers, the corrupt, murderers, the immoral, those who practice witchcraft, idol worshipers, and all liars—their fate is in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.

It doesn't matter that they once believed. Only believers get eternal life.
John 3:16...it says those who believe, not those who used to believe. Taken all together these verses can not mean a person that believes at one time is given unconditional eternal life.

 

[BBAS 64]

Dead faith is useless, however there are other verses about loss of salvation.

Good day, Marius

This kind of stuff always brings me back to Augustine..

Augustine (354-430): "Perish the thought, however, that Dr. Christ should lose in those whom he foreknew and predestined; because they are the ones he also called; and those he called are the ones he also justified; while those he justified are the ones he also glorified. Curb your vices, quench your lusts, let the devil and his angels be tormented with frustration; if God is for us, who can be against us"? (Rom 8:29-31). John E. Rotelle, O.S.A., ed., WSA, Part 3, Vol. 6, trans. Edmund Hill, O.P., Sermons, Sermon 229E.3 (New Rochelle: New City Press, 1993), p. 283.

Thanks for the reminder.

Bill

 

[BNR32FAN]

Well when salvation is called an eternal gift I don't get how people mix that up for something that needs the flesh to sustain and perfect it. Not Biblical.

The gift is eternal life. No one receives eternal life in this world. Did you read post 229?

1 Peter 1:3-5 Peter says the inheritance we receive in heaven is irrevocable not the hope of salvation. He is saying that once we receive eternal life we can never lose it. He even says we do not receive it until we reach heaven.

“to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭1:4‬ ‭NASB‬‬

For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:5‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Notice Colossians 1:22-23 Paul tells Christians who are reconciled salvation is contingent on remaining in the faith.

“And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach- if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1:21-23‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called "Today," so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭3:12-14‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭4:1‬ ‭NASB‬‬

1 John 2:19