...Do you even believe in Evolution in the first palce?

[TLK Valentine]

Who told you that?

God, of course.

 

[Cheeky Monkey]

Who told you that?

Wisdom teeth, ear wiggling muscles, coccyx, appendix. We don't all have to just take what we read on faith. There is the possibility of testing what you read through observation.

 

[AV1611VET]

Wisdom teeth, ear wiggling muscles, coccyx, appendix. We don't all have to just take what we read on faith. There is the possibility of testing what you read through observation.

I wonder which one(s) EmpAtheist tested through observation?

Or maybe he's just believing what he read?

 

[Ophiolite]

Well AV, I do appreciate that you are engaging in discussion with many individuals, so it is easy to overlook important points in individual posts. So, I hope you won't mind me gently reminding you that you overlooked the central element in my questions to you.

How do you reconcile your condemnation of scientists without simultaneously condemning William Paley? And how can you, as a Christian, condemn one of the most eloquent speakers on behalf of Christianity in the 19th Century, arguably the greatest. I wish to understand your logic on this point.

Thank you in advance.

 

[Strathos]

Isn't that good enough?

I just really doubt the reason is so physical.

Simple or complex -- Jesus didn't have the sin nature.

I'm not disputing that.

Hypothetical answer: No. Since sin resides in the flesh, and the flesh was cloned, then the clone would also have the sin nature. In addition, the clone would not be a true human being, as it would have a body, but lack a soul & spirit.

I see three major problems here. First of all, how can you have sin without a soul? Perhaps we simply subscribe to different interpretations, but I've always believed that sin is spiritual in nature. Sin will prevent you from getting to Heaven, but a being with no soul will not to go Heaven anyway.

Second of all, Jesus was born from the flesh of Mary, who was a human with a sin nature (unless you subscribe to the Immaculate Conception doctrine of Catholicism, which Baptists don't, last time I checked). So it must be something other than the fact He was born of a virgin that makes Jesus sinless.

Third of all, and perhaps most disturbing, is the conclusion that a cloned human would not have a soul, which I could see easily being used as a basis of discrimination (for example, historically many atrocities were committed against groups of people such as Jews and Gypsies partially due to propaganda saying that they didn't have souls).

I suppose so; but since there was no false history given to the world, then we won't know, will we?

Embedded Age is: maturity without history -- false or otherwise.

But all of our investigations show the history of the world to extend back billions of years.

 

[Strathos]

Theoretically we could combine the cells of two females and create life, but that would only create another female; not a male.

How does that address my question?

They WERE the parents. The idea of embedded age is the manifestation of those who can't comprehend that God created a mature world complete with MAN, not child.

But if they were created with no parents or ancestors, then it stands to reason that all other life that was created was also created similarly, with no ancestors. Yet that doesn't match what we see in the fossil record.

Well, let's look at the facts, shall we:

The Hebrews had an army of about what -- 6,000, give or take? (My memory's a little rusty on this, so bear with me) While archaeologists have estimated that the city of Jericho had a total population of about 2500. Assuming about 500 of those were actual soldiers, we're looking at a rather one-sided battle without the walls.

However. the Hebrew army was almost entirely light infantry -- they were built for speed ("blitzkrieg" tactics, if you don't mind the irony) not for siege warfare.

Knocking down the walls (conventionally) is not an option; climbing over them will get them picked off by the guards, and starving them out won't do -- the longer the Hebrews stay in one location, the more likely that their enemies will find them and send out a force they can't fight off. (When your strategy is based on mobility, standing still is suicide)

So... before we jump straight to divine intervention, how could such an army bypass the walls?

Here's a hint: How did the Greeks do it at Troy?

If you can follow where I'm going with this, I'll tell you one way they could've done it -- no divine sonic weaponry required.

So wait, you're trying to discredit what you consider to be a myth (the trumpets at Jericho) with another myth (the Trojan Horse)?

The story of the Trojan Horse comes from the Aeneid, which was written over 1000 years after the battle of Troy actually occurred. It also mentions the Greek/Roman gods interfering with earthly affairs as factual events, you don't believe that, do you?

God didn't create evolution.

[Theistic] evolution says we are copy errors; whereas God says we are created in the the image and likeness of Him -- no mistakes.

We didn't come from the seed of an animal, we came from the dust of the ground.

You shouldn't mischaracterize others' beliefs like that.

God is omniscient, even if He started the universe with a singularity 13.7 billion years ago, He knows that on a planet that will be formed billions of years later, life will emerge, and that life will eventually reach a form which He had already determined - because that's His will. As for coming from the "dust of the ground", it's possible to interpret that as an oblique reference to abiogenesis (as filtered through the limited understanding of the Hebrews to whom these things were originally revealed).

As for the whole "no mistakes" thing, creationists often use the Fall as an excuse for poor design in nature... so they do admit there are "mistakes" but they have an excuse for them.

 

[AV1611VET]

God is omniscient, even if He started the universe with a singularity 13.7 billion years ago, He knows that on a planet that will be formed billions of years later, life will emerge, and that life will eventually reach a form which He had already determined - because that's His will.

Do you believe in guided evolution, or are you a deist?

 

[Cheeky Monkey]

I wonder which one(s) EmpAtheist tested through observation?

Or maybe he's just believing what he read?

Not all scientists who test and observe are atheists. If you just read it in a book you wouldn't be doing science.

 

[Strathos]

Do you believe in guided evolution, or are you a deist?

Obviously I believe God does and has interfered with the normal operation of the universe (see my posts on miracles for example) so I am not a deist.

 

[AV1611VET]

Not all scientists who test and observe are atheists. If you just read it in a book you wouldn't be doing science.

But he said Dusty was a product of natural selection and I'm asking him how he knows that.

 

[AV1611VET]

Obviously I believe God does and has interfered with the normal operation of the universe (see my posts on miracles for example) so I am not a deist.

I certainly don't look at guides as 'interference,' per se; but if God can guide evolution through the ages, why can't He guide mankind coming from the dust of the earth, as opposed to coming from the seed of an ape? (or orangutan, or monkey, or chimpanzee, or bonobo, or H. ergaster, or whatever the current accredited science college book from Amazon*com says this semester)?

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

I certainly don't look at guides as 'interference,' per se; but if God can guide evolution through the ages, why can't He guide mankind coming from the dust of the earth, as opposed to coming from the seed of an ape? (or orangutan, or monkey, or chimpanzee, or bonobo, or H. ergaster, or whatever the current accredited science college book from Amazon*com says this semester)?

You don't 'come from' any of those.

You've been commenting on this subject for years. Are you ever going to bother learning something about it?

 

[AV1611VET]

Are you ever going to bother learning something about this subject you been commenting on for years now?

Heavens! I hope not! It would constitute time in my life I'd never get back.

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

Heavens! I hope not!

Thank you for making an example of yourself, as per usual.

It would constitute time in my life I'd never get back.

You've wasted countless hours commenting on a subject about which you know absolutely nothing, yet you consider learning to be wasteful of your time. Hilarious.

 

[AV1611VET]

Thank you for making an example of yourself, as per usual.



You've wasted countless hours commenting on a subject about which you know absolutely nothing, yet you consider learning to be wasteful of your time. Hilarious.

You guys ride [the late] Henry M. Morris for the same thing; and he was considered one of the most respected scientists around.

I'm not going to run out and get a PhD so you guys can accuse me of having it in the wrong field.

And I'm certainly not going to get a PhD in evolution so I can be accused of lying when I say: "God created..."

 

[Cheeky Monkey]

But he said Dusty was a product of natural selection and I'm asking him how he knows that.

Well I doubt that Dusty was zapped into being ex nihilo. And if he were, if he looks human then he was zapped into being as a reasonable facsimile of someone who was the product of evolution...wisdom teeth, ear wiggling muscles, appendix etc etc.

 

[AV1611VET]

Well I doubt that Dusty was zapped into being ex nihilo.

I doubt he was born from a bonobo, either (or whatever it was that gave birth to y-Adam).

 

[Cheeky Monkey]

I doubt he was born from a bonobo, either (or whatever it was that gave birth to y-Adam).

Y-Adam was Homo sapiens.

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

You guys ride [the late] Henry M. Morris for the same thing; and he was considered one of the most respected scientists around.

By who, exactly? The blithering morons at ICR?

Even if this were true, it would mean absolutely nothing in your defense.

I'm not going to run out and get a PhD so you guys can accuse me of having it in the wrong field.

No one is asking you to get a PhD, and you know that. I shouldn't have to point out to you that there are levels of understanding between doctorate and clueless.

If you put 5% of the effort you waste in your ignorance of evolution toward actually learning something about it, you could have a layman's understanding by tomorrow.

You won't, though. Ignorance is your religion.

 

[AV1611VET]

Y-Adam was Homo sapiens.

No kidding?