...Do you even believe in Evolution in the first palce?

EnemyOfReason · Jun 17, 2013

AV1611VET said:
How should I know, bhstme? I'm not a connoisseur of wine.

I made the statement that wine in the Bible was grape juice -- now I'm being put through an inquisition for some reason.

Then please explain to me why Nuh became intoxicated from the win along with the events in which Jesus turned water into wine. It was specifically recorded that these people were intoxicated.

TLK Valentine · Jun 17, 2013

TheImmaculateSlaveOfGod said:
Then please explain to me why Nuh became intoxicated from the win along with the events in which Jesus turned water into wine. It was specifically recorded that these people were intoxicated.

While we're at it, maybe he could explain why Noah passed out naked in his tent after the flood?

EnemyOfReason · Jun 17, 2013

TLK Valentine said:
While we're at it, maybe he could explain why Noah passed out naked in his tent after the flood?

I always forget that one

bhsmte · Jun 17, 2013

TheImmaculateSlaveOfGod said:
Then please explain to me why Nuh became intoxicated from the win along with the events in which Jesus turned water into wine. It was specifically recorded that these people were intoxicated.

AV,

I brought this up before. What are your comments on what the bible says about getting drunk on wine?

durangodawood · Jun 17, 2013

TheImmaculateSlaveOfGod said:
Then please explain to me why Nuh became intoxicated from the win along with the events in which Jesus turned water into wine. It was specifically recorded that these people were intoxicated.

Some give highest value to what they WANT to believe, ahead of every other consideration.

(I sure hope that isnt what's meant by "seek and ye shall find".)

bhsmte · Jun 17, 2013

durangodawood said:
Some give highest value to what they WANT to believe, ahead of every other consideration.

(I sure hope that isnt what's meant by "seek and ye shall find".)

It should go more like this; "seek, don't think and ye shall find"

EnemyOfReason · Jun 17, 2013

bhsmte said:
AV,

I brought this up before. What are your comments on what the bible says about getting drunk on wine?

My only comments are that most of the drinking is not done by the prophets although there are enough references of the prophets of god drinking or being around intoxicated individuals they themselves do not get intoxicated (mostly).

The Bible is often known for the famous verse of Ephesians 5:18 "Be not drunk one wine....",
The Bible is only referencing intoxication and not the consumption of alcohol. I myself love a cooled whiskey with some pineapples or maple syrup. But never in my life have I been drunk. Nor do I intend to!

durangodawood · Jun 17, 2013

TheImmaculateSlaveOfGod said:
My only comments are that most of the drinking is not done by the prophets although there are enough references of the prophets of god drinking or being around intoxicated individuals they themselves do not get intoxicated (mostly).

The Bible is often known for the famous verse of Ephesians 5:18 "Be not drunk one wine....",
The Bible is only referencing intoxication and not the consumption of alcohol. I myself love a cooled whiskey with some pineapples or maple syrup. But never in my life have I been drunk. Nor do I intend to!

Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit

This one time, I got so drunk, it prevented debauchery... (I got sick). Its one of my great regrets.

AV1611VET · Jun 17, 2013

bhsmte said:
I brought this up before. What are your comments on what the bible says about getting drunk on wine?

Okay, after rereading literature on the subject, wine can be both fermented and unfermented, and it is the context that decides which.

Noah was brought up as an example, so I'll post what Adam Clark has to say.

Genesis 9:20 And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:
Genesis 9:21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.

Adam Clarke's Commentary said:
It is very probable that this was the first time the wine was cultivated; and it is as probable that the strength or intoxicating power of the expressed juice was never before known.

I don't believe Jesus turned water into intoxicating wine in Cana.

TLK Valentine · Jun 17, 2013

AV1611VET said:
I don't believe Jesus turned water into intoxicating wine in Cana.

We do.

Lollerskates · Jun 17, 2013

TLK Valentine said:
While we're at it, maybe he could explain why Noah passed out naked in his tent after the flood?

Just to put it out there: uncovering someone's nakedness is a colloquial Hebrew phrase that means you slept with someone related to them in some way. Ham uncovered his father's nakedness, which was either his own mother, or one of Noah's other wives (who was mother to either Shem or Japheth, or a wife of Noah's that was not related to any of the boys.) It is similar to "[biblically] knowing" someone meaning to have sex with them. A contemporary example would be if a woman tells a man to "take her" - historians and laypersons 2000 years in the future may be puzzled by the meaning of the phrase the same way some are puzzled by the the phrase "to know [your spouse]," or "uncovering one's nakedness."

His son's Shem and Japheth tried to restore some decency to the whole situation by "undoing" what Ham had done - uncovered the nakedness of his father/revealed Noah's wife's "shame." So they walked backward with a garment on both of their shoulders (to cover their periphery,) and "covered Noah's wife's nakedness. The walking backward was a literal and symbolic act - representing them trying to correct a wrong.

Now, I would not excuse having sex with your step mother, or even seeing her naked. The perspective is Ham was vile (which is highly probable.) I am inclined to believe that seeing The End of The World (as you know it) had something to do with his decision also.

Example:

my dad is so lame... he never even looks at [insert his wife's name here.] I bet she doesn't even want him. He is supposed to be working to repopulate and replenish, but he just gets drunk every day since. I am going to take his place and do what he cant do. And, I won't tell my brothers because they may kill me, or even try to steal my idea, or both!

The action by Ham was also an attack on rights to the headship of the family - by deeming Noah impotent, and sealing the take over of Noah's place as the head of the family by having sex with his wife. It is the same thing the serpent did to Adam, and it is a similar thing that Cain did to Abel. Jacob managed to "get his rights" back with the help of his mother (it only cost him a bowl of soup.)

That little tidbit is one of the more pithier parts of the bible.. a lot in those few verses.

durangodawood · Jun 17, 2013

Of course it was wine. Real wine. It was a wedding!

TLK Valentine · Jun 17, 2013

durangodawood said:
Of course it was wine. Real wine. It was a wedding!

Is there any tradition as timeless as getting sloshed at a wedding?

durangodawood · Jun 17, 2013

TLK Valentine said:
Is there any tradition as timeless as getting sloshed at a wedding?

At those ancient Jewish weddings, you just know there was that one really drunk uncle who breakdanced on the marble floor of the Galilee hotel.

EnemyOfReason · Jun 17, 2013

durangodawood said:
Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit

This one time, I got so drunk, it prevented debauchery... (I got sick). Its one of my great regrets.

I am not sure about the spirit but when intoxicated you will be filled with something and usually you will be vomiting it out of your mouth at the end .

Just an average day in San Francisco

JGL53 · Jun 17, 2013

Yes, well, in addition wine is alcoholic by definition. Unless someone has taken the alcohol out and says so. And Jesus did not say so. So it was regular alcoholic wine. To say otherwise is to twist the words of the bible to say something they do not say. I thought that was a sin?

As to evolution - it is a scientific theory that is backed up by such overwhelming evidence that no scientist, even a drunk one, can question it - unless the scientist has some sort of personal problem - if you know what I mean.

I think some with poor scientific backgrounds are being confused by the word 'theory'.

Well, does anyone serious question atomic theory? Or the germ theory of disease? Or astrophysical theory concerning fusion being the engine of the various stars like our sun? Etc.

People who doubt or disbelieve in the fact of biological evolution are just revealing their profound scientific ignorance. Their rejection of evolution - or rather what they see as its necessary implications - is an emotional reaction. It has nothing to do with sound logic or rational thought or empirical evidence - and it certainly has nothing to do with some imagined better explanatory theory. Rather than a scientific theory (one that is testable) the claim of special creation is a religious notion that is a useless non-falsifiable assertion. That is all.

AV1611VET · Jun 17, 2013

TLK Valentine said:
We do.

Is this the same "we" as believes the Bible portrays a geocentric model of the universe?

JGL53 · Jun 17, 2013

AV1611VET said:
Is this the same "we" as believes the Bible portrays a geocentric model of the universe?

What difference does it make? The bible is not a science book, it is myth.

So, then what? - did Jesus know about the germ theory of disease? If so, then why the heck didn't he say something?

All people in the Palestinian desert area two millennia ago, including Jesus, were profoundly ignorant of modern science - knowledge you and I take for granted. The bible is no more a science book than I am ten feet tall or you are the King of France.

AV1611VET · Jun 17, 2013

durangodawood said:
Of course it was wine. Real wine. It was a wedding!

I wonder about people who drink on their wedding day; but then, I wonder about people who drink on any day.

AV1611VET · Jun 17, 2013

TLK Valentine said:
Is there any tradition as timeless as getting sloshed at a wedding?

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