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Do you belong to a CULT?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by edpobre, Oct 16, 2002.

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  1. Gunny

    Gunny Remnant Supporter

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    Yes, how true, one's right, though right, could be wrong thus creating a problem of epidemic proportions espicially if the wrong is right according to another's wrong thus creating a situation that could be determined to be nonsensical if one considered such a thing.
     
  2. amie

    amie Survivor

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    now gunny can you say that real fast while jumping up and down on one foot?;)
     
  3. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +37
    gunnysgt,

    Do you REALLY believe this? Or are you speaking lies in hypocricy, having your conscience seared with a hot iron (1 Tim. 4:2)?

    Jesus SAID: "but now you seek to kill ME, a MAN..." (John 8:40). Jesus also SAID to the FATHER: "that they may know YOU the ONLY true God..." (John 17:3).

    If you REALLY believe John 14:6, why do you INSIST that Jesus  is ALSO God IN ADDITION to the Father? Can't you understand the English version of John 8:40 and John 17:3?

    Ed
     
  4. Gunny

    Gunny Remnant Supporter

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    Aime, only when I'm listening to G.O.G's, lol.
     
  5. Gunny

    Gunny Remnant Supporter

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    The Felix Manalo Prophecy
    By: Chris Anna

    So far, we have seen some of the ??evidences? that the INC has given to show that it is the ?true
    church?: no Trinity, Jesus is not God but a man only, salvation is by means of the INC, etc. They also
    claim that they truly follow the commands of God, as in this quote, ?All the doctrines of the Church of
    Christ are in complete accord with Biblical precepts. This Church therefore, passes the first test of the
    true religion given by the Prophet Isaiah: The teachings.?(1) I will have more on this later. At this
    point, I want to focus on another crucial doctrine of the INC. That is their claim to fulfill Biblical
    prophecy as proof that they are the ?only true church?.

    As with any religious group, we need to be wary about groups that claim that they fulfill Biblical
    prophecy.

    As mentioned earlier, various groups have attacked the historic Christian faith, which is from
    Jesus Himself, in every century since the time of Christ. The attacks have come in the form of
    heretical teachings, which stem from various motives. Usually it is from incorrect interpretation of
    Scripture. It is no different today. The INC has attacked historical Christianity by claiming that after
    the Apostles, such a great apostasy came into the Church that there were no longer any true Christians.
    Here is some evidence to this belief:


    ?Eventually, after the death of the Apostles, this Church which was established by Christ
    in the first century departed from the true faith. It was apostatized.? (2)
    ?This Church [INC] is the continuation, so to speak, of the Church that Jesus
    established in the first century, the same Church which suffered from the great
    apostasy when false teachers introduced doctrines alien to the original teachings of
    the Lord upon the death of the Apostles. ?The prophecy [Revelation 7:2-3] also
    describes laconically the kind of Church the Iglesia Ni Cristo would be as it emerges
    once more in the 20th century.? (3, emphasis and underline added)


    Therefore, according to the INC, from the death of the Apostles to the early twentieth century, there was no
    true church, until Felix Manalo started the Iglesia Ni Cristo. It is the re-emergence of the Church that
    Christ started prior to the apostasy. The false teachers and alien doctrines of course include the
    Roman Catholic Church. To the INC, even the Reformation of the 1600?s did not bring back true
    Christianity, but rather made the situation worse. Now there are even divisions over teachings among
    the Protestants. This means that there is not one true church of Christ among the Protestants, but
    many churches that are not part of Christ?s body, because they are not the ?Church of Christ.?
    So, regarding the INC?s ?fulfillment? of Biblical prophecy, let us start with a short passage from
    God?s Message,


    ?What about the second proof given by prophet Isaiah, the testimony? Is the Church of
    Christ proven by the testimony of Jesus? What is the testimony of Jesus? Revelation 19:10
    reveals that the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy:
    ?And I fell at his feet to worship him, And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy
    fellow servant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: Worship God: for the
    testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.? (King James Version)
    The true religion must also be proven by the spirit of prophecy.? (4)

    What does ?spirit of prophecy? mean? A careful study using some good Greek dictionaries and a
    concordance reveals that ?spirit?, in this verse, means ?purpose?, or ?aim?. So we are first of all talking
    about the purpose or aim of prophecy. The next important question here is, ?What is prophecy??
    Vine?s dictionary defines it primarily this way: ?propheteia?signifies ?the speaking forth of the mind
    and counsel of God.?? It does not only mean telling the future. It means a direct word from God,
    which could pertain to past or present or future. {See 1Cor 14:3}
    With this in mind, how does the INC believe that they are the fulfillment of Biblical prophecy?
    There are basically two Scripture passages that I will focus on. These are John 10:16, and Revelation 7:2-3
    The Iglesia Ni Cristo builds its case concerning Felix Manalo by using the words of Jesus in John
    10:16: ?And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; and I must bring them also, and they shall
    hear my voice and they shall become one flock with one shepherd.? (NASB) Here is what an INC
    writer wrote concerning this.

    ?It [the INC] was founded by virtue of the prophecy mentioned in John 10:16 (we will
    dwell with this passage separately) as regards the other sheep of Christ which would
    come from a far country (cf. Acts 2:39).?(5)

    We must ask the question; is this verse really referring to Iglesia Ni Cristo? Or, could it be
    referring to someone else? To answer this, we must first discover who the first sheep are, before we
    can discover who the ?other sheep? are.
    There are essentially two groups of people, Jews and non-Jews, or Gentiles. Everyone who is not
    a Jew is a Gentile. In the Old Testament, the people of God, that is, the Israelites, were compared to
    sheep, or a flock, as in Isaiah 40:11. They were chosen by God as in Deuteronomy 7:6. Since the
    Jews were the first sheep, then the ?other sheep? must logically come from the Gentiles. So since
    Jesus is speaking to Jews in John 10:16, then He must mean that the ?other sheep? are Gentile
    followers! For further example, Matthew Henry wrote in his Commentary on the Whole Bible, ?He
    [Christ] had sometimes intimated His special concern for the lost sheep of the House of Israel, but,
    saith He, I have other sheep. Those who in process of time should believe in Christ, from among the
    Gentiles, are here called sheep.?(6) Before Christ, the people of Israel were God?s sheep. But now,
    because of Christ, even the Gentiles who believe are included, ?and they shall become one flock with
    one Shepherd.? At this point in time, there was not yet a church, so the Gentile followers He was
    speaking of would come along in the future. But it was not long, since in the book of Acts, gentiles
    were witnessed to and included in the sheepfold along with Jews who will believe. {Also see epistles
    for the two becoming one flock, Jews and Gentiles} So, the ?one flock? that Jesus is speaking of here
    is made up of believing Jews and Gentiles.
    Could Jesus have been speaking specifically about the Iglesia Ni Cristo in this passage? The
    ?other sheep,? as I have mentioned, came along not too much later, in the book of Acts. Felix Manalo
    started the Iglesia Ni Cristo in 1914! That is about 1800 years later! But aren?t the INC members also
    Gentiles? Yes. So wouldn?t they be included in the sheepfold just like any other Gentile church, even
    though years later? No. I?ll explain more on that when we get into some of their other doctrines.
    Also, For the INC to be the ?other sheep?, and no other Gentiles were included from the Apostles until
    The INC came, then that means that there must have been a discontinuation of the church in history.
    But there was not! We see in Christian history a continuation and perseverance of Christ?s Church,
    from Christ until now. There was never a time when the entire body of Christ fell away, creating a
    need for another group of sheep to come and continue it.

    Now for Revelation 7:2-3. The INC claims that Felix Manalo is the fulfillment of prophecy in
    these verses, thus,


    ?We believe that the late Brother Felix Y. Manalo is God?s last messenger; he was the fulfillment of Biblical
    Prophecies concerning the messenger from the far east (rev 7:2-3) who would preach to
    God?s sons and daughters in these last days (Is. 43:5-6; 46:11; 41:9-11).? (7)

    If this is true, then they may have a solid foundation to stand on concerning other doctrines that
    they teach. If it is not true, then Felix Manalo is proven to be a false messenger and the church that he
    started is also a false church, and should not be followed.

    Revelation 7:1-3 (I include verse 1 for background) says, ?After this I saw four angels standing at
    the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, so that no winds should blow on
    the earth, or on the sea or on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun,
    having the seal of the living God; and he cried out with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was
    granted to harm the earth and the sea, saying, do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we
    have sealed the bondservants of our God on their foreheads.?

    So what is the prophecy here concerning Felix Manalo? The INC claims that he is the ?other
    angel? in verse 2! What justifies this? The ?four winds?, according to INC writers, refers to World
    War I, as follows:

    ?Wind in Revelation 7:3 refers to battle or war. And this war is not an ordinary
    war, but one of global proportions. The prophecy describes it as four winds of the
    earth, not because there would be four wars but because the war would involve the
    four corners of the earth (cf. I Chron. 9:24) Indicating the nature of the war which is
    global in scope. It is a world war that the four angels standing at the four corners of
    the earth would hold back. Was there indeed a global war recorded in the annals of history which became the
    fulfillment of this prophecy? Yes. That was the First World War that broke out in the year
    1914.? (8)

    Cont'd
     
  6. Gunny

    Gunny Remnant Supporter

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    The Felix Manalo Prophecy Cont'd
    By: Chris Anna


    The INC claims that the four angels were the four world leaders who signed the treaty of
    Versailles at the end of World War I. Felix Manalo started the INC at the same time that WWI broke
    out. Felix Manalo is from the Philippines, which is in the ?center? of the Far East, hence, the ?rising of
    the sun?. The ?ascending? means his teachings and church were growing and becoming widely known
    as well as the work of evangelism.
    ?Wind,' first of all, can have different meanings based on the context. In some cases in
    the Bible, it is used figuratively to mean battle or war. So, for the sake of argument, let us say that it
    really means war in this particular case, specifically WWI. Does this fit with what the Scripture says
    in context? The four angels were already holding back the winds so that no harm would come to the
    earth etc. The INC teaches that WWI was already happening (earth being harmed etc) when the [Big
    Four] stopped it (held back the winds). Also, the other angel ?cried out to them with a loud voice.? With
    regard to this part of the Scripture, the INC explains in their God?s Message magazine that this is not
    to be taken literally.(9) Felix Manalo, they admit, never communicated with the Big Four! Also, the
    other angel told them not to harm the earth, etc, until after the bondservants of God were sealed,
    which would have to mean INC members of course, since they are ?the One True Church?. So, if the
    winds here mean war, then this effectively means that no war could occur until after the bondservants
    of God were sealed. But of course we know that not all the bondservants (lets say INC members for
    argument) are even sealed yet, since they are still bringing more members into their church. And we
    know also that numerous wars have occurred since WWI, including another war of global proportions
    (WWII). So even if the winds in this passage literally mean war, and more specifically WWI, then
    the full membership of the INC should have been completed prior to WWI! Therefore, does
    Revelation 7:1-3 speak of Felix Manalo and his church? No it does not! If the Word of God did not
    prophesy about Felix Manalo in this passage then who did? I maintain that the INC is not the
    fulfillment of any prophecy, but rather the creator of false prophecies due in part to false interpretation
    of Scriptures. Since the claim has been made by INC that Felix Manalo is an ?angel? or messenger of
    God, then where would his message logically come from? It would come from God if he was a true
    messenger of God. But the prophecy concerning the INC and WWI is not true, since the verses used
    to support it are not about the WWI or the INC. Well then, where does Felix Manalo, and the INC
    for that matter, fit into prophecy? Here is where they fit in: ?When a prophet speaks in the name
    of the Lord, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken.
    The prophet has spoken presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.? (Deut 18:22) Therefore,
    Felix Manalo and also his church, is not a true messenger of God.

    References:

    1. Bocabo, Antonio E. Jr. ?On Choosing The True Religion.?
    God?s Message, October ? December 1991, pg.14.

    2. Santiago, Bienvenido C. ?What We Believe and Why.?
    God?s Message, Special Issue, ?Iglesia Ni Cristo, 25 Years In The West: All For God?s Glory!,
    1993, pg. 25

    3. Fuentes, Feljun B. ?The Angel From The East And His
    Message.? God?s Message, Special Issue, ?Iglesia Ni Cristo, 25 Years In The West: All For God?s Glory!,
    1993, pg. 17

    4. Bocabo, Antonio E. Jr. ?On Choosing The True Religion.?
    God?s Message, October ? December 1991, pg. 14

    5. Fuentes, Feljun B. ?The Angel From The East And His
    Message.? God?s Message, Special Issue, ?Iglesia Ni Cristo, 25 Years In The West: All For God?s Glory!?,
    1993, pg. 17

    6. Church, Rev. Leslie F. Commentary on the Whole Bible by
    Matthew Henry . Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan Publishing House, 1960, pg. 1,564

    7. Santiago, Bienvenido C. ?What We Believe and Why.? God?s
    Message, Special Issue, ?Iglesia Ni Cristo, 25 Years In The West: All For God?s Glory!?,
    1993, pg. 24.

    8. Fuentes, Feljun B. ?The Angel From The East And His
    Message.? God?s Message, Special Issue, ?Iglesia Ni Cristo, 25 Years In The West: All For God?s Glory!?,
    1993, pg. 15

    9. Santiago, Bienvenido C. ?The Church of Christ Today in Bible
    Prophecies.? God?s Message, International Edition, April, 1997, pg. 5

    NOTES:

    1. [NOTE: We can see in context that the winds in this verse are more closely related to the catastrophic
    events that will occur at the very end. The bondservants are the Elect of God (I didn?t say INC
    members), and the sealing of them means they will be marked as ?owned by God? before
    everything is destroyed and the final judgement occurs. The Elect will not face the wrath of God,
    as the rest of the world will. It is impossible to say that the winds here mean WWI since all the
    bondservants of God were not sealed prior to the war, which would have to be a chronological
    prerequisite for the prophecy to be about WWI. The other angel said, ?do not harm? until after
    the bondservants of God are sealed.? The order is bondservants sealed first, destruction from the
    ?winds? after. Therefore, we have discovered that the INC?s interpretation is wrong. Therefore
    their ?Prophecy? is wrong. This is not a prophecy concerning Felix Manalo! This is a Prophecy
    of the sealing of the believers in Christ prior to the final destruction of the universe and the
    Second Coming of Christ. A good explanation can be found also in, ?The Lamb Is All The
    Glory?, by Richard Brooks, (Durham, England: Evangelical Press, 1986) But even without this
    book, anyone who studies the Book of Revelation can see that WWI does not fit in there. ]

    2. [NOTE: The INC magazine, God?s Message (2, pg. 13) mentions that they believe that Felix Manalo
    is the messenger sent by God in the last days of the Christian era, which immediately precedes the
    end of the world (See ref 1, pg. 13). We have seen that Rev. 6 is talking about the end of the
    world and the catastrophes that occur prior to the Second Coming of Christ. Rev 7 talks about
    who will be able to stand with all the catastrophes- those who are sealed before they (the winds)
    happen! This shows that Rev 7 is not talking about WWI, since it did not destroy the world like
    those great catastrophes mentioned! Trying to make WWI fit with Rev 7 is confusing at best,
    along with the idea that Felix Manalo is a messenger of God.
     
  7. Gunny

    Gunny Remnant Supporter

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    INC and The Issue of the Deity of Christ.
    By Chris Anna


    Ok. If you have read the previous sections, then you have seen how the INC claims
    to be the only true church and that they fulfill Bible prophecy. But there is an issue
    that is even more important than those are when determining if an organization is a
    true church or a cult. This is concerning the very Deity of Christ, the fact that Christ
    is actually God in the flesh. He is not a lower god, or an angel, or a special, sinless
    man only, but God Himself, the Son. In Philippians chapter 2, Paul writes, ?Have
    this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed
    in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but
    emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness
    of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming
    obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.? (Philippians 2:5-8, emphasis
    added) Christ is God. This is a plain fact. He humbled Himself as a human being!
    But He was not a human being only. He is God.

    So, does the INC preach a different Jesus than the one that the Apostles taught?
    Let?s find out.


    ?The Iglesia Ni Cristo believes that the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son
    of God (Mt. 3:17), is the one and only Savior given by God (Acts
    13:23). Christ is the sole mediator between God and man (I Tim. 2:5)
    and the only way to God (Jn 14:6).
    But we do not subscribe to the belief that Christ is a God-man. He
    is man according to His own testimony (Jn. 8:40) and the teachings of
    His Apostles I Tim. 2:5; Mt. 1: 18).? (1)


    ?He had in so many instances introduced Himself as the Son of God
    but never did He appropriate the Title ?God? or ?God the Son? for
    Himself because he is not God but a man.? (2)


    There it is in a nutshell. The INC does not believe that Jesus Christ is God, from
    their own words! Lets look at these quotes a little more closely. First, I included
    some of their other beliefs about Christ to show that seem to be right, up to the point
    about Christ?s deity. They believe He is Lord, Savior, mediator, and the only way to
    God. Many people who are evangelized by the INC may believe that it must be a
    true Christian Church because of these truths they teach about Christ. Could this be
    part of the reason why so many INC members are ex-Protestants? This is very likely
    the case, since so many Protestant Christians do not really study their own Bibles,
    and can be easily fooled when the truth is mixed with a lie! Beware! And study the
    Bible for yourself, earnestly and prayerfully, so that you may know the truth!
    The INC does not believe that Christ is a ?God-man?. But, as I have shown above
    in Philippians 2:5-8, Jesus is both God and man. The INC article that I quoted uses
    John 8:40 as one proof that Christ is just a man and not God. John 8:40 says, ?But
    as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who told you the truth, which I heard from
    God; this Abraham did not do.? I do not see how this verse can prove that Jesus is a
    man only, and not also God. Of course, it does show that Jesus is a man. Who
    would deny that Jesus is a man here? But at the same time, this verse does not
    exclude Jesus from being God also. He is speaking as a man to other men on their
    level. So from this perspective, He called God ?God?, and mentioned that He heard
    the truth from God. He was obedient to God the Father while on earth, even to death
    as in Philippians 2:8. He humbled Himself (and what a humbling it truly was!) and
    took on the likeness of a man, as in Philippians 2:7 and as such He communicated to
    the Father by prayer etc. But Philippians 2:6 shows clearly that He existed in the
    form of God! So, in correct order, He was God, then became a man, and now in
    John 8:40 He is speaking to other men from His humbled human position on their
    level, and this is what the other men see. These men, Jews, could only see His
    humanity.

    Jesus Called Himself a man. Let?s go a little further and see that He also calls
    Himself God in the same chapter while He is speaking to the same Jews!


    ??Your Father Abraham rejoiced to see my day and He saw it and was
    glad.? The Jews therefore said to Him, ?you are not yet fifty years
    old, and have you seen Abraham?? Jesus said to them, ?Truly, truly, I
    say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.? Therefore they picked
    up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the
    temple.(John 8:56-59) ?

    If Jesus was a mere man and not God, then His words would not be true here. Since
    Abraham actually saw Christ?s day, according to Christ, then Christ must have been
    around even before He was born as a human being! This is why the Jews brought up
    Jesus? age. Abraham lived many many generations before Christ was born, so from
    the perspective of these unbelieving Jews, it is impossible for Abraham and Jesus to
    have seen each other, since Jesus is not even fifty years old. Also, when Jesus said
    ?before Abraham was, I am,? He was calling Himself by the same name that God
    the Father used when talking to Moses at the burning bush in Exodus chapter 3. This
    may not be clear to us in this generation, but these Jews knew exactly what Jesus
    meant, because they knew the Old Testament scriptures thoroughly. They knew that
    he was actually calling Himself God, which would be a great blasphemy if Jesus was
    only a man. The punishment for blasphemy in Jewish Law is stoning as in
    Deuteronomy 16:24. For this reason, since they did not believe His words that He
    spoke, but rather believed that He was blaspheming, they picked up stones to stone
    Him! They knew that He was claiming to be God. Seeing this, we must also
    recognize that Jesus here claims to be God.

    Who can be equal with God? No one except God. Yet Jesus claimed equality with
    God by calling God His own Father. Here it is in John 5:17,18: ?But He answered
    them, ?My Father is working until Now, and I Myself am working.? For this cause
    therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was
    breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself
    equal with God.? Once again, the Jews recognized the fact the Jesus claimed to be
    God. Yes, Jesus claimed to be God! No one can be equal to God, unless He is God!
    When the INC points out that Jesus said He was a man, they are correct. However,
    they refuse to see what the Jews recognized, which was the fact that Jesus claimed to
    be God, also. So Jesus really is both God and Man. Paul reinforces this fact in the
    verses from Philippians 2, mentioned above.

    Another point I need to make with regards to the two passages I shared from John is
    the fact that INC believes that Jesus did not sin. ?However, Christ as distinct from
    all men, is the only one who did not sin (I Pt. 2:21-22; Heb. 4:15).? (3) It is true
    that Jesus did not sin! And since He did not sin, He would not lie would He? So,
    when He claimed to be God, as the Jews knew He was doing, then was He lying?
    Absolutely Not!

    (Another point: When talking to an INC member that I know, the claim is made that
    Scriptures such as John 8:58, above, are not clear, but the verses where Jesus says
    He is a man are clear. Therefore we should just believe the clear verses. This may
    not necessarily be the belief of all INC, but I wanted to mention it here.)


    More on the Deity of Christ
    Look at John 1:1. ?In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.?
    Here we have the Word, and it is established that the Word was in the beginning, the Word was with
    God, and that the Word also was God. The next verse adds another important detail: ?He was in the
    Beginning with God.? (Jn 1:2 Emphasis added) Now, the Word here is not just an object or
    something spoken, but it is established that the Word is a person, that is ?He?. Verse 3 says, ?All things
    came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.?
    Following the flow of the text, we see in context that this is still talking about ?the Word?, when it says ?by
    Him? and ?from Him?; the word ?Him? still referring to ?the Word.? If we say that ?Him? in
    verse 3 is talking about God, then verse 2 would have to say, ?God was with God in the beginning.?
    And verse 1 would say, ?In the beginning was God, and God was with God , and God was God.? So
    we see that these verses are really not talking about just one person, God the Father, but a second
    person, who is called God in verse 1, He is with God in verse 1 & 2, and everything was created by
    Him in verse 3. In verses 4 and 5 you can see that this second person was also the light of men and
    darkness did not comprehend it.

    Next we have some verses concerning John the Baptist, whom the Scriptures say clearly was not the light,
    but was a witness to the light. This
    is important to note since we cannot confuse John the Baptist as being the ?He? and ?Him? of verse 2
    and 3 above.

    Now, returning to the Word Himself, the Scriptures declare, ?And the Word became flesh, and dwelt
    among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father,
    full of grace and truth.?(Jn 1:14) Now, if the Word refers to God in verses 1-3 (and we see that it
    does), then God here becomes flesh and dwells among human beings! And we have seen above that
    in verses 1-3 the ?Word? is not God the Father, but a second person, who is also called God. So, who
    is this second person?

    Lets begin this discovery of that second person with Jn 1:15. After it is shown that the Word became flesh,
    we see, ?John [the Baptist] bore witness of Him [the Word], and cried out, saying ?This was He of
    whom I said, ?He who comes after me Has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.??? Now
    read verses 26 ? 30. ?John answered them saying, ?I baptize in water, but among you stands One
    whom you do not know. It is He who comes after me, the thong of whose sandal I am not worthy to
    untie.? These things took place in Bethany beyond the Jordan, where john was baptizing. The next
    day He saw Jesus coming to Him, and said, ?Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the
    world! This is He on behalf of whom I said, ?After me comes a man who has a higher rank than I,
    for He existed before me.??(emphasis added) So, here is the obvious connection: The Word is the
    one Whom John the Baptist bore witness of in verse 15, saying this was He who existed before him,
    and then when he sees Jesus Christ, he affirms certainly, that Jesus is the one whom He was speaking
    about! Therefore, It is Jesus who is the Word In John Chapter 1 and therefore, It is Jesus who is the
    second person who is called God in verse 1!


    Cont'd
     
  8. Gunny

    Gunny Remnant Supporter

    +88
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    Cont'd

    The INC and the Issue of the Deity of Christ.
    By Chris Anna



    How can these plain passages be misunderstood!? When we read the whole chapter, we can put the pieces
    together, thus:
    The Word was in the Beginning (already in existence at the beginning of the beginning)
    The Word was with God (see also verses 17 and 18 of John chapter 1)
    The Word was God
    The Word was not a mere object or something spoken, but a person! (verse 2)
    The Word created everything! (Only God can do that!)
    The Word was life and light.
    The Word became flesh, so it was not God the Father, but a second person who was always with
    God the Father.
    John the Baptist testified that the Word was ?He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for
    He existed before me.? (verse 15)
    John the Baptist affirms that it is none other than Jesus Christ who is the one who comes after
    him and has a higher rank, etc.
    Therefore, Jesus Christ is the One whom John was talking about in Verse 15 referring to the
    Word which was a person , and was in the beginning, and was with God, and was God Himself!

    Jesus, therefore, is God according to the Bible! Who ever denies this actually denies the Scriptures!
    And these Scriptures are so plain when read in context!
     
  9. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

    +218
    Atheist
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    Sarge, you sure have a knack for taking up an enormous amount of bandwidth with your extremely loooooong posts don't you?  Would it be possible for you to keep your cut n pasties a little more brief and to the point please?  Just a suggestion!  :rolleyes:
     
  10. SunnyLin

    SunnyLin taking the mission home.

    106
    +1
    i dunno what the last posts say :) hehe soo sorry if this is off topic
    my ushistory teacher mentioned something about cults today. he said that cults were religions that followed one person who is currently alive, denomitions or sects are religions that follow one person who has passed, the religion has endured, continued even though the leader has ceased to exist here on earth
     
  11. Gunny

    Gunny Remnant Supporter

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    Franklin, the information"my cut n pasties" that I provide is a way to show clearly the differences between those in these latter days who worship God in Spirit and in truth and those that have been beguiled by false prophets, false messengers and false doctrine. I don't believe that these issues can be dealt with by a set script of proof text.
     
  12. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +37
    gunnysgt,

    The true mark of a FALSE teacher who HAS the spirit of the anti-Christ is one who BELIEVES that Jesus is God (1 John 4:2-3).

    Apostle John tells us that anyone who does NOT abide in the doctrine of Christ does NOT have God (2 John 9).

    Christ TAUGHT that the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3). Those who have the spirit of the anti-Christ and of course,  do NOT have God, PRETEND that they do NOT see nor know the meaning of the word "ONLY" and INSIST that Jesus is ALSO God IN ADDITION to the Father.

    On this basis ALONE, you are the CULT - NOT the Iglesia Ni Cristo!

    Ed

     
     
  13. Gunny

    Gunny Remnant Supporter

    +88
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    Characteristics of Cults
     
  14. Gunny

    Gunny Remnant Supporter

    +88
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    Examine Iglesia ni Cristo
     
  15. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +37
    gunnysgt,

    Do you believe what these articles say about the INC? If you do, why aren't you man enough to post them here so I can deal with them.

    Are you afraid that readers of these links might OPEN their eyes to the childishness of these charges? I dare you to come out in the open and NOT hide behind these links.

    Ed 
     
  16. Gunny

    Gunny Remnant Supporter

    +88
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    Ed, there is no such my info on Iglesia ni Cristo, it would take many hours and countless posts to put it all down. The examing INC website has forty-five pages of information, alone.

    I post the information primarily to inform Christians that hold true to Orthodox Theological Doctrine.

    Felix Manalo, is truly a piece of work.

    If you choose to follow such as a man as this that makes such ridiculous claims about himself, that's your choice. I shall continue to post links that describe Iglesia ni Cristo, it's founder, it's doctrine, it's claims, and it's deceptions.

    I have great empathy for individuals such as yourself that have been seduced by such heresy. Every false religion has a false prophet/messenger, and Iglesia ni Cristo, is no different.

    I encourage anyone reading this forum to read the information regarding INC at the links provided.
     
  17. Gunny

    Gunny Remnant Supporter

    +88
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    Non Iglesia ni Cristo Association
     
  18. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +37
    Jesus was a messenger SENT by God. John the Baptist was a messenger SENT by God. Apostle Paul was a messenger SENT by God. These MEN were TESTIFIED to by PROPHECIES written by the prophet Isaiah.

    The IGLESIA NI CRISTO has a messenger that was also SENT by God. This messenger is also TESTIFIED to by PROPHECIES written by the prophet Isaiah.

    Does your church HAVE a messenger SENT by God? If NOT, how can you or anybody in your church DELIVER messages that come FROM God? Common sense says, you CAN'T!

    Me either. I encourage everyone to go to the links regarding the INC. Read what the INC believes and compare them with what your Bible teaches. Don't just believe what these critics say, for your own good.

    Ed

     
     
  19. Gunny

    Gunny Remnant Supporter

    +88
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    http://members.tripod.com/insiders_inc/

    http://www.gospelcom.net/apologeticsindex/i00.html

    http://www.letusreason.org/igleidir.htm

    http://members.tripod.com/~janchung/table_of_contents.html

    http://members.tripod.com/~janchung/false_messenger.html

    http://members.tripod.com/xcrusaders/angeleast.html

    http://www.adeptsys.com/chrysalis/Pages/info/iglesia.html

    http://www.nossumus.net/iglesyanikristo/lesson11.html

    http://www.examineiglesianicristo.com/honesty4.html

    http://thebereans.net/qa-realname.shtml
     
  20. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +37
    "My dear friends,

    do not believe all who claim to have the spirit, but test them to find out if the spirit they have comes from God. For many false prophets have gone out everywhere.

    This is how you will be able to know whether it is God's Spirit: anyone who acknowledges that Jesus Christ CAME as a HUMAN BEING has the Spirit who comes from God. But anyone who DENIES this about Jesus does NOT have the Spirit of God. The spirit that he has is the ENEMY of Christ; you heard that it would come, and now it is here in the world already" (1 John 4:1-3 Today's English Version).

    Trinitarians DENY that Jesus Christ CAME as a  HUMAN being. They TEACH that Jesus Christ CAME as God who BECAME a MAN.

    Do Trinitarians have the Spirit of God? The Bible says NO! Those who PERSECUTE the Iglesia Ni Cristo are TRINITARIANS. Should you believe them? The Bible says NO!

    Ed



     
     
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