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Do you believe this?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by AubreyM, Mar 27, 2021.

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  1. AubreyM

    AubreyM Active Member

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    Hello you and welcome,

    Very dicey question here -> Feel free to respond for no judgement here on your subjections.

    Have you ever come across this scripture before?

    This is why we work hard and continue to struggle, for our hope is in the living God, who is the Savior of all people and particularly of all believers. 1 Timothy 4:10

    The understanding of looking at the verses is this

    Paul is writing to Timothy encouraging him to continue even through tribulations or struggle - in hope of the living God.

    The Living God who is the Saviour of all people. (All people meaning everyone regardless even if they reject, or have not yet to come to understanding of God and the Lord Jesus Christ)

    Particularly of all believers -> This part is indicating that God is even the saviour of those who believe because -> They made the choice to turn towards God through being told the truth of the Lord Jesus Christ and accepting and believing in him -> Which John (1:12) indicates anyone who believes on the Lord become children of God. -> according to Romans (5:1-6) talks about how we are justified by peace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ we have peace with God, and that the holy spirit of God's love is given to us, and also includes that Christ died for the ungodly -> So God is the savior of all mankind. Particularly of all believers for all of what is given because of their faith on the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Do you believe in what 1 Timothy 4:10 says is truth? God is the Saviour of all people?

    What are your thoughts on this.

    Yes. This is not about universalism.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2021
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  2. disciple Clint

    disciple Clint Well-Known Member

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    not complicated, Jesus on the cross was sufficient for all people but only applies to those who accept Him. To be more clear there is no limit to the number of people who can accept Jesus a savior.
     
  3. AubreyM

    AubreyM Active Member

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    Hello Disciple Clint,

    Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this; for it is agreed that Jesus Christ did die for the ungodly which is us - and all of us have the choice to decide to believe in God and the truth that he provides through the Lord Jesus Christ;

    That involves eternal life, peace with God, being a child of God, son or daughter of God, spiritually renewed being born again, being renewed in our minds by following the Lord instead of the ways of the world, the holy spirit that changes us and a new heart which is a promise from God that is obtained through faith, and following the spirit and he replaces our old stony heart, forgiveness, mercy, His grace is sufficient enough for all believers trusting in Him, He always hears our prayers, and cares about our worries, and also promises to supply our all our needs according to the riches of the glory of Christ Jesus.

    Also like the scripture there in your profile picture:

    Eph 1: 16 I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. 17 I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. 18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in his holy people, 19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength 20 he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms,

    Others may have a different opinion though - who knows.​

    Thank you for taking time to comment and share.
     
  4. IntriKate

    IntriKate Active Member

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    Yes he died for everyone, sadly not everyone will accept this gift of love.
     
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  5. Hmm

    Hmm Well-Known Member

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    That's what it seems to say. It may seem to contradict other verses but that's clearly what it says and so it can't simply be dismissed as being some kind of universalist heresy.
     
  6. NomNomPizza

    NomNomPizza Active Member

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    Ye Christ died for all for the ungodly so he is the saviour.
    Like if Christ was fireman and ur stuck in burning building he knocks the door open but if u stay there bcuz u dont want to escape then u die , doesn't change the fact that he is the fireman.
     
  7. d taylor

    d taylor Well-Known Member

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    For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

    This verse is stating that it is only The Messiah who is the savoir. Not, pick a religion, and find your on way to salvation/heaven.

    So if a buddhist, hindu, muslim, etc... if they want Eternal Life it is only through believing in The promised Messiah they will receive God's free gift of Eternal Life. Not through their religion.
     
  8. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    'disciple Clint' has the right approach, IMO, but I see it as not referring only to those who accept the Savior but as a general statement meaning that God is over all, i.e. he's not a tribal deity like other gods were.

    That's different from thinking that the verse guarantees something to every last person regardless of any other consideration; and it also isn't speaking only about every believer. If that had been the meaning, the word "particularly" would have been inappropriate.
     
  9. Direct Driver

    Direct Driver Well-Known Member

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    There are basically three views on the fate of the "lost":
    1. ECT - eternal, conscious torment
    2. CI - Conditional Immortality - the "person" is killed at the second death to exist no more.
    3. Universalism. All are saved.

    The one hardest to take seriously is number one. That leaves us with numbers two and three. I'm an adherent of number two, but would not be surprised to find out the answer is number 3. If it is Universalism, I think the whole Christianity thing is about us being part of Jesus' "government" in the next age and the "unsaved" being the rest of them. At least that explains why we are here in the first place (to learn).

    One analogy a universalist gave me that I have a hard time answering: numbers one and two are described in this analogy of the message of the bible:

    Jesus and Satan are coaches of two socccer teams. The angels are players and points are the souls of men. The bible says that God's will is that all are saved and none should perish. That is, Jesus should get all the "points".

    But according to the bible, the path is narrow, and also that in the end Jesus defeats satan.

    So, bottom line is that Satan wins, 10 to 1, but it's ok, because Jesus beats him up in the parking lot after the game.

    So, for me, the bottom line is that the kingdom of God can be described as Already [here] but not yet [complete]. I choose to be His starting on the day we call "Today".

    What happens after I die will be an amazing revelation since now we see as through a glass darkly.

    When we occupy these meat bodies, we make terrible decisions and harm ourselves and our fellow man - and grieve our Father. Does that mean he's done with us? No. But we'll see.

    One thing I do know: God has made it clear that we come to him out of love, not fear. If someone comes to God because they are scared of torture in a dark dungeon or lake of fire, they are doing it wrong. Only two things motivate men: Fear of bad things and desire for good things. We are to come to him out of desire, not fear.
     
  10. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Direct Driver, I think you are right about the three basic ways of looking at the matter...but not that #1, the Biblical answer, is the least acceptable.

    The problem seems to be that the choice of something other than #1 is based on human reasoning, human standards of justice, and wishful thinking. We really cannot fall into that trap, setting the Bible's witness aside.

    And if we DO turn to Scripture, the view--out of the three mentioned--that has by far the strongest support is #1.

    It may seem like something you or I or most people would not do...if any of US were God instead of the God of the Bible. But we are not.

    That said, it is possible to reserve some degree of judgment about the exact nature of the afterlife. Some of the Biblical descriptions may not be intended as literally accurate, for example. Some people in Christian history have, for example, argued that the pain of hell will not be torture in fire but the 'pain' of realizing what these people lost through their own choices.

    In any case, we do not have to define every mystery about the afterlife down to the "Nth" degree but we can, instead, "let God be God" with some of it.

    A good example would be this very issue, which, after all is said and done, shouldn't alter our commitment to Christ, our trust in Him, and how we live our daily lives, no matter which of your three alternatives turns out to be the right one.
     
  11. Direct Driver

    Direct Driver Well-Known Member

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    I left ECT 12 years ago because of this article: Hell: Eternal Torment or Complete Annihilation? - By Jeremy K. Moritz

    I'm now a member of rethinking hell which has a web site and a facebook group. The "goldilocks" source for CI apologetics, for me, is this: Believe What the Jewish Apostles Taught -- Why Conditional Immortality Is True and Biblical

    I consider Annihilationism to be the "biblical" answer.

    I also think you and I have the same "attitude" about this regarding "knowing".
     
  12. d taylor

    d taylor Well-Known Member

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    Their worm never dies
     
  13. Petros2015

    Petros2015 Well-Known Member

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    Not all are saved
    But of those that are
    He is their saviour
     
  14. Direct Driver

    Direct Driver Well-Known Member

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    And the fire is not quenched.

    And both have a fascinating context. :)
     
  15. d taylor

    d taylor Well-Known Member

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    The verse states Jesus is the savior of all. Even the ones who rejected His free gift of Eternal Life, He Jesus is their savior. They just did not want His Life, but that does not make Jesus not their savior. Even though they may have turned to something else or nothing at all.
     
  16. AubreyM

    AubreyM Active Member

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    Thank you everyone who has posted, am currently at work and desired to post.

    The question is, do you believe the scripture in 1 Timothy 4:10 is truth?

    Seems like some are saying it is not.

    This something you really must consider look at and examine.

    Is God really the savior of all men?

    Even in rejection or denial of God did Jesus Christ save them from their sins yet they reject allowing God to be the forerunner of being the Savior of all men?

    Others may consider differently but why is it you consider this text incorrect and for what reason?​
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2021
  17. Direct Driver

    Direct Driver Well-Known Member

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    It's easy for me to argue against ECT advocates. It's much harder to argue against Universalists. It's quite frustrating...
     
  18. d taylor

    d taylor Well-Known Member

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  19. Matt5

    Matt5 Summary first, then the detail.

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    If everyone has sinned then isn't all of creation at risk? Shouldn't God wipe out everyone and start over because something is obvious wrong? Jesus changed all of that and saved all of creation. It shouldn't matter whether one believes or not.
     
  20. d taylor

    d taylor Well-Known Member

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    Jesus saved them from their sins, of course He did. But that is not the reason they are in the place of the dead (sheol/hades) for now and eventually the lake of fire.

    They are where they are because they never trusted in The Messiah for God's free gift of Eternal Life. Jesus took away the sin of the world, sin is no longer an issue as to where they spend eternity.
     
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