Do you believe this?

[chad kincham]

I left ECT 12 years ago because of this article: Hell: Eternal Torment or Complete Annihilation? - By Jeremy K. Moritz

I'm now a member of rethinking hell which has a web site and a facebook group. The "goldilocks" source for CI apologetics, for me, is this: Believe What the Jewish Apostles Taught -- Why Conditional Immortality Is True and Biblical

I consider Annihilationism to be the "biblical" answer.

I also think you and I have the same "attitude" about this regarding "knowing".

Annihlationism is wrong, because at creation, God, who has no body, but is am immortal spirit, created man in His image, meaning He made us an eternal spirit, just as angels are eternal spirits), and put us into a temporary home, called our physical body.

Spirits cannot be destroyed, that’s why we spend eternity with either God, or in the lake of fire.

 

[Hmm]

Try reading what Jesus says in John 3

Why don't you try reading it again?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Try reading what Jesus says in John 3


Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Right, we deny Christ because we are sinful, so we prefer the dark over the light; and so through our own work we damn ourselves. Not because God chooses to damn some, because we see here that Christ did not come to judge, but to save. God's will and work in the world and for the world is salvation of the world. That is why our Lord came, to rescue the world.

Our condemnation under the Law is on account of our sin; and our damnation of ourselves through our own choices and works, to flee from God by trying to hide in the shadow.

But God is relentless, He will crawl under every floor space and tunnel, searching high and low and everywhere in between. Pursuing us with His love, with His salvation, that He might take hold of us and drag us kicking and screaming to heaven.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Prayingscholar]

There are a lot of things to consider here, especially in light of Biblical passages.

That Jesus died for the salvation of everyone is an absolute truth. In Matt 26:27-28 and Mark 14:24, at the Last Supper when Jesus offers the cup, He says He sheds his blood for the forgiveness of the sins of all; (here our translations do us a great disservice: most translations recount Jesus' words as "for many" but this is actually a Hebrew/Aramaic idiom. If I were to buy everyone on this forum a cup of coffee but not one for myself, then I would say in Biblical Hebrew/Aramaic, I am buying coffee for "many" because I am not buying coffee for "everyone" - I'm not getting coffee. Jesus certainly does not need salvation so He is not shedding His blood for His own salvation, therefore He is shedding His blood for "many").

Now, are non-Christians saved? Well, there are some passages to consider. While we are indeed saved by God's grace, the unearned gift of salvation, we respond with good works. In Matt 25:31-46, Jesus discusses final judgement. All the nations (which to the Jews of the first century specifically meant Israel and the Gentiles) are judged and the "righteous" (specifically Jews - "believers" - who considered themselves already saved simply because they were the Chosen People) are not automatically saved, but are judged by how they treated the people who don't count. Now we shouldn't be so arrogant as to think, well Jesus only meant the Jews here and if they didn't end up following Him, well then...Absolutely not! Today, we Christians consider ourselves the "righteous" and the non-Christians "the nations." But that's not how Jesus is going to judge. According to what He says here, He's going to judge people on how they act, not on what they believe.

And in Mark 9:40-41, Jesus says, "For whoever is not against us is for us. Anyone who gives you a cup of water to drink because you belong to Christ, truly, I say to you, will surely not lose his reward." Here, to me, Jesus is saying that simply respecting Christians and treating them well is enough.

I have studied a lot. I have been taught by many, many people a lot smarter than me. I have learned Biblical Greek and Biblical Hebrew from some of the best scholars in the world. (Like I said, I have learned from people a lot smarter than me).

And at the end of the day, my belief is this: if I want God to be merciful to me, then God is going to be merciful to everyone. And I am well satisfied with this faith. I find a lot of Biblical evidence for this belief - throughout the Old Testament, God is declared to be slow to anger and quick to forgive. His compassion always outweighs His vengeance.

That Jesus voluntarily left Heaven to become fully human (and fully God) and die on the Cross to save all of us for no other reasons other than because He loves us and deems us all worthy of salvation leaves me in awe. This kind of God will be relentless in saving each and every one of us. This kind of God will not abandon us to eternal hell or to non-existence. Would you do that to someone you loved so much you would let yourself be crucified in place of them? Honestly?

Again, I believe in God's mercy and love

 

[Mark Quayle]

Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Interesting, that --wrought in God. "Apart from me you can do nothing."

 

[Shrewd Manager]

It's easy for me to argue against ECT advocates. It's much harder to argue against Universalists. It's quite frustrating...

Universalism: perennial heresy or everlasting gospel?

Let's see what God has to say, shall we?

I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. (Isa 45:23)

Pretty hard to argue with an oath of God, he sware by himself as there is none higher (Heb 6:13). But maybe He was just saying it for effect, impressing Himself upon Cyrus?

It is written: "As surely as I live, says the Lord, every knee will bow before Me; every tongue will confess to God." (Rom 14:11)

Sounds like reiteration to me, in the high theology section of the NT, too. But let's ignore that.

that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, (Phil 2:10)

And the revelation that Jesus will elicit this universal worship, that's the God 'who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.' (1 Tim 2:4)

For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. (1 Cor 15:27-28)

Jump to Revelation, that's where the action hots up, the ppl of Moshe and the Lamb finally singing together, a new number from the same hymn book:

Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest. (Rev 15:4)

ALL the nations? Those filthy reprobates? Surely not!

And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. (Rev 21:24)

Those naughty KJV editors, interpolating the words 'of them which have been saved' in a vain attempt to import limited atonement, but forgetting the HS already spilled the beans back in Rev 15:4 and in fact all the way back to Abrahamic Covenant: "And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed" (Gen 22:18a)

So all are saved, as promised, and God uses the ultimate purification bath, the Lake of Fire, to cleanse of sin and destroy death, the last enemy (1 Cor 15:26) as He makes all things new (Rev 21:5). Saved, as through fire (1 Cor 3:15), those who were once far brought near (Eph 2:13), to enter through the ever-open Pearly Gates (rev 21:25) to worship and receive healing from the leaves of the tree of life (Rev 22:2).

That's why it's exceedingly good news, the Omega Plan is He is Salvation, the total victory of Christ over the sins of unbelief. For in Him there is no partiality. Absolutely.

 

[chad kincham]

Interesting, that --wrought in God. "Apart from me you can do nothing."

Which doesn’t negate free will in any way.

The Holy Spirit gives faith when the word is heard, Ramon’s 10:17, but He can be resisted - and all those facts shred Calvinism.

 

[chad kincham]

It is man that hates God, not God that hates man. It is man who needs to be redeemed and turned toward love, not God; God already loves us. He has eternally loved us in Jesus Christ.

It’s God’s wrath against sin that damns those who reject the light.

They don’t send themselves to hell, God does, because of their rejection, thus damnation is not anthropomorphic, as you stated.

Shalom.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Which doesn’t negate free will in any way.

The Holy Spirit gives faith when the word is heard, Ramon’s 10:17, but He can be resisted - and all those facts shred Calvinism.

Enjoy....

 

[Neogaia777]

Some people will go to "a hell", and not get to go to heaven, even though Jesus is Savior of all people, etc, and even though at some point, all will acknowledge that, etc, but some will be forced to, while others will have already have/had, etc, anyway, regardless of all of that, some will go to a hell, that will be forever for them after that, while some will get to go to heaven...

But hell is just more of here, etc... They will more than likely "sleep" until their time or their turn comes around again to ever exist only in what will be just be only more of only this only here, etc, and that will be for eternity for them, etc...

For these fallen realities will come around again and again and again for all eternity, etc, and they are meant only for only them only, etc... They are only quote/unquote "conscious" (and I use that word very, very loosely in reference to them, etc) (even while they were supposedly ever truly "conscious" here, etc)... anyway... they are only quote/unquote "conscious" (again) ever, only when they are brought back again for only more of this here ever again, etc, and are always quote/unquote "asleep" when and while they are not, either there or here, etc, for there never ever was a place for them ever other than just more of this here, etc...

They will not ever be conscious of any kind of former life, or lives, etc, if you want to call them that, etc, even though they technically had them here, etc...

But it will not be so for those of us going to heaven... We will be "conscious of all", and that will be forever after that, and it will not ever be torment anymore for us, etc, but it still will be for them, etc, and these are both "eternal", etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!

 

[AubreyM]

6 minutes.

 

[Ayenew]

Hello you and welcome,

Very dicey question here -> Feel free to respond for no judgement here on your subjections.

Have you ever come across this scripture before?

This is why we work hard and continue to struggle, for our hope is in the living God, who is the Savior of all people and particularly of all believers. 1 Timothy 4:10​

The understanding of looking at the verses is this

Paul is writing to Timothy encouraging him to continue even through tribulations or struggle - in hope of the living God.

The Living God who is the Saviour of all people. (All people meaning everyone regardless even if they reject, or have not yet to come to understanding of God and the Lord Jesus Christ)

Particularly of all believers -> This part is indicating that God is even the saviour of those who believe because -> They made the choice to turn towards God through being told the truth of the Lord Jesus Christ and accepting and believing in him -> Which John (1:12) indicates anyone who believes on the Lord become children of God. -> according to Romans (5:1-6) talks about how we are justified by peace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ we have peace with God, and that the holy spirit of God's love is given to us, and also includes that Christ died for the ungodly -> So God is the savior of all mankind. Particularly of all believers for all of what is given because of their faith on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Do you believe in what 1 Timothy 4:10 says is truth? God is the Saviour of all people?

What are your thoughts on this.

Hello you and welcome,

Very dicey question here -> Feel free to respond for no judgement here on your subjections.

Have you ever come across this scripture before?

This is why we work hard and continue to struggle, for our hope is in the living God, who is the Savior of all people and particularly of all believers. 1 Timothy 4:10​

The understanding of looking at the verses is this

Paul is writing to Timothy encouraging him to continue even through tribulations or struggle - in hope of the living God.

The Living God who is the Saviour of all people. (All people meaning everyone regardless even if they reject, or have not yet to come to understanding of God and the Lord Jesus Christ)

Particularly of all believers -> This part is indicating that God is even the saviour of those who believe because -> They made the choice to turn towards God through being told the truth of the Lord Jesus Christ and accepting and believing in him -> Which John (1:12) indicates anyone who believes on the Lord become children of God. -> according to Romans (5:1-6) talks about how we are justified by peace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ we have peace with God, and that the holy spirit of God's love is given to us, and also includes that Christ died for the ungodly -> So God is the savior of all mankind. Particularly of all believers for all of what is given because of their faith on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Do you believe in what 1 Timothy 4:10 says is truth? God is the Saviour of all people?

What are your thoughts on this.

Yes I believe God is the saviourr of all people. But all people will not be saved. Those who believe in Him and obey Him will.

 

[AubreyM]

Hello Ayenew;

You know many people do say this: Not all people will be saved. Thinking about this it is believed to me that since Jesus Christ paid for all sins. Everyone is saved from their sin already because while we were still sinners God showed his love towards us that Christ died for us. While we were ungodly. (Romans 5)

Thinking on this response that many people use a lot Ayenew, sir. God is the saviour of all people - He saved them from their sin. The thing is, some are still not saved to - the Kingdom of Heaven - Because they reject the notion of God in their life by their own choice.

Very interesting, do you have any thoughts on this?​

Thank you for your time for commenting.

 

[Cormack]

And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. (Rev 21:24)

Those naughty KJV editors, interpolating the words 'of them which have been saved' in a vain attempt to import limited atonement,

I’ve never read that before, always interesting to read the KJV blunders (since it’s my main translation in terms of usage.) An excellent post overall and well worth reading till the very end.

 

[Cormack]

6 minutes.

Oh Shawn. There’s a blast from the past. Will defo visit his channel later in the day to see how he’s been.

 

[AubreyM]

haha Cormick. He been going through book of mark and also Romans on sundays on Campus. This man helped me a lot in walking with God and trusting him, over trusting men and looking at God instead.

It was never taught to me that way before, and he also willing to admit his faults, and believe we as believers should to.

my beliefs could be wrong so don’t ever trust me, trust God and look toward Him, and His son.

And his son Jesus Christ if you love me keep my commands.

What are the commands? To love God and to love others and not fight, condemn, or provoke others in the fleshly manners because we don’t wrestle with flesh and blood yet...

We wrestle inside of ourselves the internal battle of our own flesh and living by the spirit forever warring at each other.

To strengthen the spirit get into the word and listen to God and the Lord Jesus Christ trust them, have faith, and the more you go and grow in spirit the more this world melts away.

As believers be encouraged stay strong have faith and believe.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I’ve never read that before, always interesting to read the KJV blunders (since it’s my main translation in terms of usage.) An excellent post overall and well worth reading till the very end.

Good to hear you're receptive to the possibility (considered blasphemous by some) that the KJV may not be perfect (although still arguably 'good enough for Jesus').

It's a constant source of frustration to me that the direction of salvation from one man to all mankind that permeates scripture and God's promises isn't heartily endorsed by the rank and file Christian.

Ezekiel 47:1-10 describes it beautifully imho, the trickle from the Temple swells into a great river, cascading into the Dead Sea:

And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh. (Eze 47:9)

The river of life as also described in Revelation 22:1-2.

 

[Norbert L]

Do you believe in what 1 Timothy 4:10 says is truth? God is the Saviour of all people?

What are your thoughts on this.

The world is divided into two kinds of people during the 2nd temple period by Judeans and their diaspora. Theologically there are only Jews and Gentiles. At that time Rome allowed their native Jewish authorities to enforce a death sentence when a Gentile is caught in areas of the Temple.

So when we read a letter between two persons about the status of individuals before the God of Israel from their Jewish perspective at that time, it's about having equal access to God no matter what bloodline a person's ancestry consists of.

 

[martymonster]

Direct Driver is correct in his observation about there being three basic views, but only one of those views doesn't reduce the title "Saviour of the world" to something with a completely hollow ring to it.

 

[Direct Driver]

Annihlationism is wrong, because at creation, God, who has no body, but is am immortal spirit, created man in His image, meaning He made us an eternal spirit, just as angels are eternal spirits), and put us into a temporary home, called our physical body.

That is just an interpretation - that I disagree with. I see being in his image as being his "imagers". That is, we were created to manage this earth for him. He gave us dominion over it. We are like the manager of a "wal-mart store" called Earth, and he's the owner of the company.

And this isn't the only wal-mart...