Do you believe this?

[d taylor]

It's easy for me to argue against ECT advocates. It's much harder to argue against Universalists. It's quite frustrating...

Not sure if you take that as my position (Universalists), if so you have misunderstood my post

 

[Der Alte]

Justin Exhortation to the Heathen. Chap. IX
Do not, however, faint. You may, if you choose, purchase salvation, though of inestimable value, with your own resources, love and living faith, which will be reckoned a suitable price. This recompense God cheerfully accepts; “for we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, especially of those who believe.” (1Ti_4:10)
But the rest, round whom the world’s growths have fastened, as the rocks on the sea-shore are covered over with sea-weed, make light of immortality, like the old man of Ithaca, eagerly longing to see, not the truth, not the fatherland in heaven, not the true light, but smoke. But godliness, that makes man as far as can be like God, designates God as our suitable teacher, who alone can worthily assimilate man to God.
Constitutions of the Holy Apostles Book VII. Sec. I. -
The Lord Jesus also said justly: “No one can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other.” (Mat_6:24) We also, following our teacher Christ, “who is the Saviour of all men, especially of those that believe,” (1Ti_4:10) are obliged to say that there are two ways - the one of life, the other of death;2 which have no comparison one with another, for they are very different,2 or rather entirely separate; and the way of life is that of nature, but that of death was afterwards introduced, - it not being according to the mind of God, but from the snares of the adversary.3

 

[Direct Driver]

Annihilationism, ECT, and the Biblical Definition of Death – Grace Evangelical Society

For the record, the bible doesn't define words. The dictionary does. The bible uses words.

 

[Direct Driver]

Not sure if you take that as my position (Universalists), if so you have misunderstood my post

No, it wasn't about your post. It was about my take on what the bible says about the fate of the lost.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Hello you and welcome,

Very dicey question here -> Feel free to respond for no judgement here on your subjections.

Have you ever come across this scripture before?

This is why we work hard and continue to struggle, for our hope is in the living God, who is the Savior of all people and particularly of all believers. 1 Timothy 4:10​

The understanding of looking at the verses is this

Paul is writing to Timothy encouraging him to continue even through tribulations or struggle - in hope of the living God.

The Living God who is the Saviour of all people. (All people meaning everyone regardless even if they reject, or have not yet to come to understanding of God and the Lord Jesus Christ)

Particularly of all believers -> This part is indicating that God is even the saviour of those who believe because -> They made the choice to turn towards God through being told the truth of the Lord Jesus Christ and accepting and believing in him -> Which John (1:12) indicates anyone who believes on the Lord become children of God. -> according to Romans (5:1-6) talks about how we are justified by peace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ we have peace with God, and that the holy spirit of God's love is given to us, and also includes that Christ died for the ungodly -> So God is the savior of all mankind. Particularly of all believers for all of what is given because of their faith on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Do you believe in what 1 Timothy 4:10 says is truth? God is the Saviour of all people?

What are your thoughts on this.

We should read the entire passage from the beginning. It has to do with those who have fallen away. The Greek translates particularly to especially. Paul was only poiting out that those who stay the course should especially continue the struggle. And of course Jesus Christ of nazareth died for all who believe. Be blessed.

 

[GraceBro]

Hello you and welcome,

Very dicey question here -> Feel free to respond for no judgement here on your subjections.

Have you ever come across this scripture before?

This is why we work hard and continue to struggle, for our hope is in the living God, who is the Savior of all people and particularly of all believers. 1 Timothy 4:10​

The understanding of looking at the verses is this

Paul is writing to Timothy encouraging him to continue even through tribulations or struggle - in hope of the living God.

The Living God who is the Saviour of all people. (All people meaning everyone regardless even if they reject, or have not yet to come to understanding of God and the Lord Jesus Christ)

Particularly of all believers -> This part is indicating that God is even the saviour of those who believe because -> They made the choice to turn towards God through being told the truth of the Lord Jesus Christ and accepting and believing in him -> Which John (1:12) indicates anyone who believes on the Lord become children of God. -> according to Romans (5:1-6) talks about how we are justified by peace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ we have peace with God, and that the holy spirit of God's love is given to us, and also includes that Christ died for the ungodly -> So God is the savior of all mankind. Particularly of all believers for all of what is given because of their faith on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Do you believe in what 1 Timothy 4:10 says is truth? God is the Saviour of all people?

What are your thoughts on this.

Yes, He is the savior of all people in that "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved (Acts 4;12).” But, that doesn't mean all people will accept Jesus Christ as their savior. One must still choose to accept His offer.

 

[Der Alte]

For the record, the bible doesn't define words. The dictionary does. The bible uses words.

Often the Bible does "define" words by how they are used.
Here three verses from a study I did on the Greek word "aionios" in the NT.

Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [basileusei][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [aionas] and of his kingdom [basileias][Nn] there shall be no end.[telos] ​

In this verse the reign/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.

John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[aionios] ​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. ​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

 

[Direct Driver]

Often the Bible does "define" words by how they are used.
Here three verses from a study I did on the Greek word "aionios" in the NT.

Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [basileusei][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [aionas] and of his kingdom [basileias][Nn] there shall be no end.[telos] ​

In this verse the reign/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.

John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[aionios] ​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. ​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

You've picked one of my very favorite words.

I don't think it's defining the words so much as clarifying which definition to apply. After all, there are plenty of places where "forever" in the bible doesn't last very long at all. The bible has figures of speech just like we do. When I say he was a plumber "forever" before he became an artist. People know what I mean.

 

[Der Alte]

You've picked one of my very favorite words.
I don't think it's defining the words so much as clarifying which definition to apply. After all, there are plenty of places where "forever" in the bible doesn't last very long at all. The bible has figures of speech just like we do. When I say he was a plumber "forever" before he became an artist. People know what I mean.

Since I am retired, retired, retired+, I have ample time to delve. I don't stutter I am retired times 3. 1st time 22 years, 2nd time 25 years, 3d time age 65 now I am semi retired.
“aionios” occurs 72x in the N.T.
“aionios” is translated world only 5 times in the N.T.
“……….”….”………eternal 42 times in the N.T.
“……….”….”………everlasting 25 times in the N.T.
Jesus used “aionios” 28 times Jesus never uses “aionios” to refer something ordinary/mundane which was not/could not be “eternal.”
= = = = = = = = = =
In twenty four [24] of the following verses aion and aionios are defined/described as eternal, everlasting, eternity etc, by paralleling or juxtaposition with other adjectives or adjectival phrases.
= = = = = = = = = =
…..Some people claim that “aion/aionios” never means eternity/eternal because they sometimes refer to things which are not eternal.
However, neither word is ever defined/described, by other adjectives or adjectival phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, in the New Testament, as in the following verses.
…..Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight times. He never used “aionios” to refer to anything ordinary or mundane that was not or could not be eternal.
In the following ten verses Jesus defines “aionios” as “eternal.”

[1] Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [basileusei][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [aionas] and of his kingdom [basileias][Nn] there shall be no end.[telos] ​

In this verse the reign/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.

[2] John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[aionios] ​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[3] John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. ​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

[4]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.
[5] John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life. ​

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.

[6]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [aionios] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. ​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.

[7]John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposed aionios life with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.

[8]John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never [ου μη/ou mé] thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [aionios] life.​

In this verse Jesus paralleled aionios with “shall [ου μη/ou mé][fn] never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal. See note [fn] on “ou mé” below.

[9]John 6:27
(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. ​

In this verse Jesus contrasted “aionios meat” with “meat that perishes” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.

[10]John 8:51
(51) Very truly [amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ou mé eis ton aiona][fn] see death."​

[fn]●The double negative [ου μη] signifies in nowise, by no means. Θεωρήσῃ[theōrésé], denoting steady, protracted vision, is purposely used, because the promise contemplates the entire course of the believer's life in Christ. It is not, shall not die forever, but shall live eternally.
● ④οὐ marker of reinforced negation, in combination w. μή, οὐ μή has the effect of strengthening the negation (Kühner-G. II 221–23; Schwyzer II 317; Mlt. 187–92 [a thorough treatment of NT usage]; B-D-F §365; RLudwig: D. prophet. Wort 31 ’37, 272–79; JLee, NovT 27, ’85, 18–23; B-D-F §365.—Pla., Hdt. et al. [Kühner-G. loc. cit.]; SIG 1042, 16; POxy 119, 5, 14f; 903, 16; PGM 5, 279; 13, 321; LXX; TestAbr A 8 p. 85, 11 [Stone p. 46]; JosAs 20:3; GrBar 1:7; ApcEsdr 2:7; Just., D. 141, 2). οὐ μή is the most decisive way of negativing something in the future.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000)A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian Literature.(3rd Ed). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
● The combinations with οὐ μή also be noticed as, ουδεν οὐ μή (Lu. 10:19); οὐ μή se σε άνο ουδ ου σε εγκαταιπο (Heb. 13:5); ουκετι οὐ μή (Rev. 18:14). There is no denying the power of this accumulation of negatives. Cf. the English hymn "I'll never, no never, no never forsake."
Grammar Of The Greek New Testament In The Light Of Historical Research
By A. T. Robertson, M.A., D.D., Ll.D., Litt.D. p.1165.
= = = = = = = = = =
Paul used the word “aionios” 23 times. It is translated “eternal/everlasting” 20 times and world 3 times. In the following 12 verses Paul defines “aionios” as eternal.

[11]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [aionios] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.​

In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios life” with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”

[12]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [tou aionios] and ever! [ton aionion] Amen. ​

In this verse Paul parallels “tou aionios ton aionion” with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.

[13]Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
[14]Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:​

In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” In this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.

[15]2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [aionios] weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [aionios]​

In this passage Paul juxtaposes “aionios” with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” an indeterminate finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary” “eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[16]2 Corinthians 5:1
(1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [aionios] in the heavens.​

In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios house” with “earthly house which is destroyed.” Is God going to replace our destroyed earthly house with a house which only lasts a little longer and will be destroyed at the end of an age? The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus, “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[17]1 Timothy 6:16
(16) Who only hath immortality, [aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting [aionios] ​

In this verse Paul paralleled “aionios” with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”

[18]Galatians 6:8
(8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; [fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [aionios] ​

In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios” with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”

[19]Romans 2:7
(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [apftharsia] he will give eternal [aionios] life. ​

In this verse Paul parallels “aionios” with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers do not seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”

[20]1 Timothy 1:17.
(17) Now unto the King eternal, [aion] immortal, [aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [aion] and ever [aionios]. Amen. ​

In this verse Paul parallels “aion” with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”

[21]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [aionios] life by Jesus Christ our Lord. ​

In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios life” with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”

[22]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [tou aionios] and ever! [ton aionion] Amen. ​

In this verse Paul parallels “tou aionios ton aionion” with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.

[23]Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [aion] he has an unchangeable [aparabatos] priesthood.​

In this verse “aion” is parallels with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue for only a “finite period” and simultaneously be “unchangeable.” Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”

[24]1 Peter 1:23
(23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God. …
1 Peter 1:25
(25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.​

In verse 23 Peter parallels “word of God” with “imperishable.” The same writer, Peter, in the same writing 1 Peter, in verse 25 writes the word of God “endures eis ton aiona/unto eternity. ” The word of God is not a finite age long but imperishable. Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity”

[25]1 Peter 5:10
(10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast. ​

In this verse Peter contrasted “aionios” with “little while” Jesus does not give His followers a finite period of glory then they eventually die. Thus “aionios” here, by definition, means “eternal.”

[26]Revelation 14:11
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​

In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paralleled with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”

 

[Direct Driver]

Since I am retired, retired, retired+, I have ample time to delve. I don't stutter I am retired times 3. 1st time 22 years, 2nd time 25 years, 3d time age 65 now I am semi retired.
“aionios” occurs 72x in the N.T.
“aionios” is translated world only 5 times in the N.T.
“……….”….”………eternal 42 times in the N.T.
“……….”….”………everlasting 25 times in the N.T.
Jesus used “aionios” 28 times Jesus never uses “aionios” to refer something ordinary/mundane which was not/could not be “eternal.”
= = = = = = = = = =
In twenty four [24] of the following verses aion and aionios are defined/described as eternal, everlasting, eternity etc, by paralleling or juxtaposition with other adjectives or adjectival phrases.
= = = = = = = = = =
…..Some people claim that “aion/aionios” never means eternity/eternal because they sometimes refer to things which are not eternal.
However, neither word is ever defined/described, by other adjectives or adjectival phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, in the New Testament, as in the following verses.
…..Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight times. He never used “aionios” to refer to anything ordinary or mundane that was not or could not be eternal.
In the following ten verses Jesus defines “aionios” as “eternal.”

[1] Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [basileusei][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [aionas] and of his kingdom [basileias][Nn] there shall be no end.[telos] ​

In this verse the reign/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.

[2] John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[aionios] ​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[3] John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. ​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

[4]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.
[5] John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life. ​

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.

[6]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [aionios] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. ​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.

[7]John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposed aionios life with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.

[8]John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never [ου μη/ou mé] thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [aionios] life.​

In this verse Jesus paralleled aionios with “shall [ου μη/ou mé][fn] never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal. See note [fn] on “ou mé” below.

[9]John 6:27
(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. ​

In this verse Jesus contrasted “aionios meat” with “meat that perishes” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.

[10]John 8:51
(51) Very truly [amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ou mé eis ton aiona][fn] see death."​

[fn]●The double negative [ου μη] signifies in nowise, by no means. Θεωρήσῃ[theōrésé], denoting steady, protracted vision, is purposely used, because the promise contemplates the entire course of the believer's life in Christ. It is not, shall not die forever, but shall live eternally.
● ④οὐ marker of reinforced negation, in combination w. μή, οὐ μή has the effect of strengthening the negation (Kühner-G. II 221–23; Schwyzer II 317; Mlt. 187–92 [a thorough treatment of NT usage]; B-D-F §365; RLudwig: D. prophet. Wort 31 ’37, 272–79; JLee, NovT 27, ’85, 18–23; B-D-F §365.—Pla., Hdt. et al. [Kühner-G. loc. cit.]; SIG 1042, 16; POxy 119, 5, 14f; 903, 16; PGM 5, 279; 13, 321; LXX; TestAbr A 8 p. 85, 11 [Stone p. 46]; JosAs 20:3; GrBar 1:7; ApcEsdr 2:7; Just., D. 141, 2). οὐ μή is the most decisive way of negativing something in the future.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000)A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian Literature.(3rd Ed). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
● The combinations with οὐ μή also be noticed as, ουδεν οὐ μή (Lu. 10:19); οὐ μή se σε άνο ουδ ου σε εγκαταιπο (Heb. 13:5); ουκετι οὐ μή (Rev. 18:14). There is no denying the power of this accumulation of negatives. Cf. the English hymn "I'll never, no never, no never forsake."
Grammar Of The Greek New Testament In The Light Of Historical Research
By A. T. Robertson, M.A., D.D., Ll.D., Litt.D. p.1165.
= = = = = = = = = =
Paul used the word “aionios” 23 times. It is translated “eternal/everlasting” 20 times and world 3 times. In the following 12 verses Paul defines “aionios” as eternal.

[11]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [aionios] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.​

In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios life” with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”

[12]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [tou aionios] and ever! [ton aionion] Amen. ​

In this verse Paul parallels “tou aionios ton aionion” with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.

[13]Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
[14]Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:​

In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” In this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.

[15]2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [aionios] weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [aionios]​

In this passage Paul juxtaposes “aionios” with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” an indeterminate finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary” “eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[16]2 Corinthians 5:1
(1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [aionios] in the heavens.​

In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios house” with “earthly house which is destroyed.” Is God going to replace our destroyed earthly house with a house which only lasts a little longer and will be destroyed at the end of an age? The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus, “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[17]1 Timothy 6:16
(16) Who only hath immortality, [aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting [aionios] ​

In this verse Paul paralleled “aionios” with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”

[18]Galatians 6:8
(8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; [fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [aionios] ​

In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios” with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”

[19]Romans 2:7
(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [apftharsia] he will give eternal [aionios] life. ​

In this verse Paul parallels “aionios” with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers do not seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”

[20]1 Timothy 1:17.
(17) Now unto the King eternal, [aion] immortal, [aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [aion] and ever [aionios]. Amen. ​

In this verse Paul parallels “aion” with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”

[21]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [aionios] life by Jesus Christ our Lord. ​

In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios life” with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”

[22]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [tou aionios] and ever! [ton aionion] Amen. ​

In this verse Paul parallels “tou aionios ton aionion” with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.

[23]Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [aion] he has an unchangeable [aparabatos] priesthood.​

In this verse “aion” is parallels with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue for only a “finite period” and simultaneously be “unchangeable.” Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”

[24]1 Peter 1:23
(23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God. …
1 Peter 1:25
(25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.​

In verse 23 Peter parallels “word of God” with “imperishable.” The same writer, Peter, in the same writing 1 Peter, in verse 25 writes the word of God “endures eis ton aiona/unto eternity. ” The word of God is not a finite age long but imperishable. Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity”

[25]1 Peter 5:10
(10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast. ​

In this verse Peter contrasted “aionios” with “little while” Jesus does not give His followers a finite period of glory then they eventually die. Thus “aionios” here, by definition, means “eternal.”

[26]Revelation 14:11
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​

In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paralleled with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”

I've researched this as well, but there is just too much C&P there to weed through. I agree that it doesn't always mean "forever" but sometimes that is the most reasonable interpretation.

 

[d taylor]

We should read the entire passage from the beginning. It has to do with those who have fallen away. The Greek translates particularly to especially. Paul was only poiting out that those who stay the course should especially continue the struggle. And of course Jesus Christ of nazareth died for all who believe. Be blessed.

That is not what 1 John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

 

[Direct Driver]

That is not what 1 John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

One of the hardest scriptures in the bible for those that believe the lost are destroyed or tortured is this:

"Father, forgive them for they know not what they do."

 

[Der Alte]

I've researched this as well, but there is just too much C&P there to weed through. I agree that it doesn't always mean "forever" but sometimes that is the most reasonable interpretation.

"Aionios" always means eternal but, as with other words, it is sometimes used figuratively. In English "forever" means eternal, unending etc. A few weeks ago I had to stand in line forever to get a shot. "For ever" still means eternal etc. but I used it figuratively
C&P implies dishonestly using someone else's work without identifying the source. I quoted from 3 grammars and identified them everything else was my own conclusions.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

That is not what 1 John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

I was referring to 1 Timothy , the OP.

 

[d taylor]

One of the hardest scriptures in the bible for those that believe the lost are destroyed or tortured is this:

"Father, forgive them for they know not what they do."

They were forgiven of their sins. That is the problem, that many have traveled down the road of still making sin an issue concerning salvation. It is like Jesus never died on the cross and took away the sin of the world.
What these people did (to The Messiah) would not block them from receiving God's free gift of Eternal Life, that is if they would believe.

These people where forgiven (for they know not what they do) but if one of them ends up in the lake of fire (eventually) it is not because of any sin, but because they never trusted in The Messiah for God's free gift of Eternal Life.

Good written piece on the sin of unbelief.

The Sin of Unbelief – Grace Evangelical Society

 

[Mark Quayle]

Hello you and welcome,

Very dicey question here -> Feel free to respond for no judgement here on your subjections.

Have you ever come across this scripture before?

This is why we work hard and continue to struggle, for our hope is in the living God, who is the Savior of all people and particularly of all believers. 1 Timothy 4:10​

The understanding of looking at the verses is this

Paul is writing to Timothy encouraging him to continue even through tribulations or struggle - in hope of the living God.

The Living God who is the Saviour of all people. (All people meaning everyone regardless even if they reject, or have not yet to come to understanding of God and the Lord Jesus Christ)

Particularly of all believers -> This part is indicating that God is even the saviour of those who believe because -> They made the choice to turn towards God through being told the truth of the Lord Jesus Christ and accepting and believing in him -> Which John (1:12) indicates anyone who believes on the Lord become children of God. -> according to Romans (5:1-6) talks about how we are justified by peace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ we have peace with God, and that the holy spirit of God's love is given to us, and also includes that Christ died for the ungodly -> So God is the savior of all mankind. Particularly of all believers for all of what is given because of their faith on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Do you believe in what 1 Timothy 4:10 says is truth? God is the Saviour of all people?

What are your thoughts on this.

I believe the verse, and the context, and the larger context. Your take on it is not what it says.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Hello you and welcome,

Very dicey question here -> Feel free to respond for no judgement here on your subjections.

Have you ever come across this scripture before?

This is why we work hard and continue to struggle, for our hope is in the living God, who is the Savior of all people and particularly of all believers. 1 Timothy 4:10​

The understanding of looking at the verses is this

Paul is writing to Timothy encouraging him to continue even through tribulations or struggle - in hope of the living God.

The Living God who is the Saviour of all people. (All people meaning everyone regardless even if they reject, or have not yet to come to understanding of God and the Lord Jesus Christ)

Particularly of all believers -> This part is indicating that God is even the saviour of those who believe because -> They made the choice to turn towards God through being told the truth of the Lord Jesus Christ and accepting and believing in him -> Which John (1:12) indicates anyone who believes on the Lord become children of God. -> according to Romans (5:1-6) talks about how we are justified by peace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ we have peace with God, and that the holy spirit of God's love is given to us, and also includes that Christ died for the ungodly -> So God is the savior of all mankind. Particularly of all believers for all of what is given because of their faith on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Do you believe in what 1 Timothy 4:10 says is truth? God is the Saviour of all people?

What are your thoughts on this.

This gets us into a place of talking more deeply about the nuts and bolts of salvation.

Salvation is a very large topic, and unfortunately in the minds of many it has been reduced to "where are you going to go when you die?" But that really isn't the way the Bible talks about salvation, and that really isn't the way Christianity has talked about salvation.

Salvation is cosmic sized. It's about God's rescue mission of creation. Part of that is big scale, and in the realm of the objective. That is, what God has done objectively for the whole world. Another part of that is the small scale, and the realm of the subjective; that is, what God is doing to/for you.

In Romans 5:18 St. Paul says that through what Christ did justification came to all people. Everyone is justified by Jesus Christ. In certain theological circles this is called "Objective Justification", it's the universal work of God, what God has done already and for everybody. In this sense, everyone has been saved, for what Christ did He did for everyone. Not in the, "Christ died for all who would accept Him" or "Christ died for all who are elected" as in Arminian and Calvinist schemas; but rather what Christ has done, objectively, for everyone.

This is what the author of Hebrews is saying when in Chapter 2, verse 9 they write that Christ tasted the death of everyone. Christ's death is, very truly and really, the death of all. Through Adam all died, for death came from Adam to everyone; in the same way through Christ all were made alive, for life comes from Christ to everyone. This is objectively true, for all really does mean for all.

What this does not necessarily mean, however, that everyone will be saved.

To bridge that gap we have to talk about Subjective Justification. Which is the question, the matter, of how what Christ has done objectively and for all comes to you and to me, subjectively, as individuals.

This is how we, especially in the various Protestant traditions, are more accustomed to speaking of Justification. That is, how am I justified before God? The chief article of Luther's Evangelical Reformation is this: What God has done for everyone by Christ He gives to us individually as a pure gift, which is brought to us and made ours by God's own gracious activity, creating faith in us and doing so through the Means of Grace, i.e. Word and Sacrament. That is, the very preaching of the Gospel is itself powerful, divinely powerful, because God actively is present in the preaching of the Gospel to turn the unbelieving into believing, to convert the heart, to create faith, to give us faith.

And through this faith granted to us we receive all which Christ Himself has done. That is, His righteousness, His perfect life, His communion with the Father, His reconciliatory and atoning death, His resurrection and victory over the power of sin, death, hell, and the devil. So that we have peace with God in Jesus Christ, we have been adopted as sons and daughters by grace, our sins are forgiven and we are washed clean, we have been clothed with Jesus Himself and His perfect justice--His righteousness. All that we have before God we have in Christ--it is Christ who is our righteousness before God, Christ Himself who is our peace with God, Christ Himself who is our union with God.

How do I, naked, shameful, wretched sinner that I am can be saved? With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible. Our objective salvation is the universal work of Christ which is absolutely and truly for all; and our subjective salvation is this objective saving work brought to us, by God's gracious activity and work, creating in us faith, changing and transforming us. That which we have received through Word and Sacrament are the very power, work, and word of God which saves us--but in these things is Christ and all which Christ has done for us. God bringing it right to us, right here, in our own sinful helplessness.

That is how God has saved us, and how God is saving us. We are being saved, even right now. God's love and mercy continuously flowing downward to us, through His word, through the Lord's Supper, through the word of absolution. This salvation flows downward to us, and we are recipients of it constantly; as what God has done He has done for you. And He is showing you this all the time, in His promises to you in His word, in the Scriptures, in the preaching of the Gospel. In the bread and wine of His Supper. So there is always Christ, never leaving nor forsaking us, but with us, present with us, day and night, even unto the end of the age.

Even until we breathe our last breath, or even until the very consummation of this age, there is Christ freely giving Himself, and we in Him and from Him and by Him and through Him being saved.

And it is here, in what God has done and is doing for us, that we have the confidence, the boldness to believe--and to hope! That He who began the good work in us will continue that good work until the day of the Lord Jesus. Unto the very end, when our Lord returns in glory to judge the quick and the dead. We shall pass through Judgment not on our own laurels, not on our own glory, not on our own merits--but in Christ, by the mercy of God. We, the scum of the earth, shall be brought through the winnowing and fire that removes and consumes the chaff, including all our wretched works, and be found on the other side pure. Gold brought through the furnace and now purified of the dross, shining with the brilliance of God.

It's not a matter of man's choosing God, but of God's choosing of man in Christ--God has made His choice, and His choice is to redeem and rescue us. And the only thing that is going to get in the way between God's work of salvation and our selves, is us.

Damnation is anthropogenic, it comes from man, by the will of man, for himself alone.
Salvation is Theogenic, it is from God, by the will of God, for all men.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[chad kincham]

Hello you and welcome,

Very dicey question here -> Feel free to respond for no judgement here on your subjections.

Have you ever come across this scripture before?

This is why we work hard and continue to struggle, for our hope is in the living God, who is the Savior of all people and particularly of all believers. 1 Timothy 4:10​

The understanding of looking at the verses is this

Paul is writing to Timothy encouraging him to continue even through tribulations or struggle - in hope of the living God.

The Living God who is the Saviour of all people. (All people meaning everyone regardless even if they reject, or have not yet to come to understanding of God and the Lord Jesus Christ)

Particularly of all believers -> This part is indicating that God is even the saviour of those who believe because -> They made the choice to turn towards God through being told the truth of the Lord Jesus Christ and accepting and believing in him -> Which John (1:12) indicates anyone who believes on the Lord become children of God. -> according to Romans (5:1-6) talks about how we are justified by peace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ we have peace with God, and that the holy spirit of God's love is given to us, and also includes that Christ died for the ungodly -> So God is the savior of all mankind. Particularly of all believers for all of what is given because of their faith on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Do you believe in what 1 Timothy 4:10 says is truth? God is the Saviour of all people?

What are your thoughts on this.

The Bible is clear that Jesus Christ paid the price for the sins of the world, so that “whosoever will, may come”, but that forgiveness of our sins is only applied to those who believe, repent, and receive Jesus as savior.
There is no universal salvation taught in scripture.

 

[chad kincham]

That's what it seems to say. It may seem to contradict other verses but that's clearly what it says and so it can't simply be dismissed as being some kind of universalist heresy.

Damnation is anthropogenic, it comes from man, by the will of man, for himself alone.

Try reading what Jesus says in John 3


Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

 

[GOD Shines Forth!]

To be more clear there is no limit to the number of people who can accept Jesus as savior.

I love this!