Do you believe this?

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Direct Driver

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Universalism: perennial heresy or everlasting gospel?

Let's see what God has to say, shall we?

I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. (Isa 45:23)

Pretty hard to argue with an oath of God, he sware by himself as there is none higher (Heb 6:13). But maybe He was just saying it for effect, impressing Himself upon Cyrus?

It is written: "As surely as I live, says the Lord, every knee will bow before Me; every tongue will confess to God." (Rom 14:11)

Sounds like reiteration to me, in the high theology section of the NT, too. But let's ignore that.

that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, (Phil 2:10)

And the revelation that Jesus will elicit this universal worship, that's the God 'who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.' (1 Tim 2:4)

For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. (1 Cor 15:27-28)

Jump to Revelation, that's where the action hots up, the ppl of Moshe and the Lamb finally singing together, a new number from the same hymn book:

Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest. (Rev 15:4)

ALL the nations? Those filthy reprobates? Surely not!

And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. (Rev 21:24)

Those naughty KJV editors, interpolating the words 'of them which have been saved' in a vain attempt to import limited atonement, but forgetting the HS already spilled the beans back in Rev 15:4 and in fact all the way back to Abrahamic Covenant: "And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed" (Gen 22:18a)

So all are saved, as promised, and God uses the ultimate purification bath, the Lake of Fire, to cleanse of sin and destroy death, the last enemy (1 Cor 15:26) as He makes all things new (Rev 21:5). Saved, as through fire (1 Cor 3:15), those who were once far brought near (Eph 2:13), to enter through the ever-open Pearly Gates (rev 21:25) to worship and receive healing from the leaves of the tree of life (Rev 22:2).

That's why it's exceedingly good news, the Omega Plan is He is Salvation, the total victory of Christ over the sins of unbelief. For in Him there is no partiality. Absolutely.
This exemplifies how it is very easy to argue against an adherent of ECT but difficult (but not impossible) to argue with an adherent of universalism. One that fascinates me is actually near the end of Revelation in 21:27 regarding the new Jerusalem:
But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.

This implies there will be "people" there who are on the earth, but will be unable to enter the new Jerusalem. Or it means all are cleansed through the blood of Christ.

And that's the thing. We can get into the weeds arguing what it will "really be like", and I consider that fruitless. What is being communicated over and over is the message of Grace and all that it contains - which is a LOT. My take is that when we are judging the unsaved, we're doing it wrong. And that becomes personal for me. A short rabbit trail:
My son and his wife are finally divorcing. She comes from a terrible family and is absolutely crazy, addicted to marijuana ($1,000 a month habit) and she is hurting everyone she comes into contact with. But then, one of her sisters is a meth head that gave up her children, the other one died of a drug overdose, and her one brother is in prison. So, as angry as I want to get with her, I ache for her soul. She is a miserable person. And is my God going to say, "heh, I put her in an unwinnable situation at birth. Sucks to be her." Or will he comfort her after she dies? Honest question.

That sort of thing makes it very hard not to be a universalist. The only way I get through it is to see all of the lost as living the Ecclesiastes life. i.e. they do what they will with this life and then they die, just like animals, but the "person" is to be annihilated at the second death.

And our job as Christians is to share the good news with folks like her. The news that the kingdom is already here, just not yet fulfilled/complete. Almost as if people like her are God giving us "homework" projects. I dunno. I'm starting to ramble. It's easy to be angry with and hate people like her. But it's becoming harder by the day. "There but for circumstance go I."
 
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Der Alte

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Universalism: perennial heresy or everlasting gospel?
Let's see what God has to say, shall we?
I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. (Isa 45:23)
Pretty hard to argue with an oath of God, he sware by himself as there is none higher (Heb 6:13). But maybe He was just saying it for effect, impressing Himself upon Cyrus?
It is written: "As surely as I live, says the Lord, every knee will bow before Me; every tongue will confess to God." (Rom 14:11)
Sounds like reiteration to me, in the high theology section of the NT, too. But let's ignore that.
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, (Phil 2:10)
And the revelation that Jesus will elicit this universal worship, that's the God 'who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.' (1 Tim 2:4)
For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. (1 Cor 15:27-28)
Jump to Revelation, that's where the action hots up, the ppl of Moshe and the Lamb finally singing together, a new number from the same hymn book:
Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest. (Rev 15:4)
ALL the nations? Those filthy reprobates? Surely not!
And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. (Rev 21:24)
Those naughty KJV editors, interpolating the words 'of them which have been saved' in a vain attempt to import limited atonement, but forgetting the HS already spilled the beans back in Rev 15:4 and in fact all the way back to Abrahamic Covenant: "And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed" (Gen 22:18a)
So all are saved, as promised, and God uses the ultimate purification bath, the Lake of Fire, to cleanse of sin and destroy death, the last enemy (1 Cor 15:26) as He makes all things new (Rev 21:5). Saved, as through fire (1 Cor 3:15), those who were once far brought near (Eph 2:13), to enter through the ever-open Pearly Gates (rev 21:25) to worship and receive healing from the leaves of the tree of life (Rev 22:2).
That's why it's exceedingly good news, the Omega Plan is He is Salvation, the total victory of Christ over the sins of unbelief. For in Him there is no partiality. Absolutely
.
One can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to by quoting selective verses out-of-context.
The king James translators did not interpolate anything in Rev 21:24. The words "of those who are saved" are in the Textus Receptus or received text. If there was any interpolating going on it happened 100s of years before king Jimmy.

We have had this discussion before let us look at "every knee will bow."
Contrary to what UR-ites say, scripture does NOT say that all mankind will bow "in reverent love for their Maker." etc.
Exomologeō occurs eleven times in the NT. in addition to Phil 2:11. In the other 10 it never means “whole-heartedly… without reservation (no holding back)”etc.
In Philippians 2:11 exomologeō is an aorist, active, subjunctive. The subjunctive is the mood of possibility or potentiality. The action may or may not happen. Every knee should bow not “will bow.”

Matthew 3:6 “confessing their sins,” Matthew 11:25 “thank,” Mark 1:5 “confessing their sins,” Luke 10:21 “thank,” Luke 22:6 “promised,” Acts of the apostles 19:18 “confessed their deeds,” Romans 14:11 “confess,” Romans 15:9 “confess Christ,” James 5:16 “confess your faults,” Revelation 3:5 “confess his name”
…..Scripture says that every knee should bow but only believers will do so freely, willingly in love and faith, the others will be conquered enemies. How will the enemies of Jesus feel?
Matthew 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, *(fn) Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity
…..*(fn)"That day" =the day of judgment.]
After judgment day and “I never knew you: depart from me,” there are no more chances for reconciliation.
The word of God says every knee should bow. It must be important because it is repeated 3 times.

1. Isaiah 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
2. Romans 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
3. Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
But the " the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, murderers, sexually immoral, those who practice magic, idolaters, liars" etc.[Rev 21:8] everyone who denied God and Christ all their lives will be forced to their knees, i.e. become Jesus’ footstool, and forced to proclaim that Jesus is Lord.
This is another important point it is recorded 7 times in scripture. The followers of UR ignore these verses.

1. Psalms 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
2. Matthew 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
3. Mark 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
4. Luke 20:42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Luke 20:43 Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
5. Acts of the apostles 2:34-35
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool..
6. Hebrews 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
7. Hebrews 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;.
Hebrews 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
What does “make your enemies your footstool" mean? Joshua, the OT type of Jesus, shows us in Josh. 10.
Josh 10:5-15 five kings band together to make war against Israel and were defeated.

Joshua 10:17 And it was told Joshua, saying, The five kings are found hid in a cave at Makkedah….
Joshua 10:22-24
22 Then said Joshua, Open the mouth of the cave, and bring out those five kings unto me out of the cave.…
24 And it came to pass, when they brought out those kings unto Joshua, that Joshua called for all the men of Israel, and said unto the captains of the men of war which went with him, Come near, put your feet upon the necks of these kings. And they came near, and put their feet upon the necks of them.
Joshua 10:26 And afterward Joshua smote them, and slew them, and hanged them on five trees: and they were hanging upon the trees until the evening.
The enemies of Joshua were made his footstool then destroyed. They did not become faithful, obedient members of his army.
The enemies of Jesus become His footstool, as the enemies of Joshua did, and nowhere is it written that those enemies will be reconciled.
 
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Exomologeō occurs eleven times in the NT. in addition to Phil 2:11. In the other 10 it never means “whole-heartedly… without reservation (no holding back)”etc.

That may be your most ambitious claim yet, der Alte. I'm guessing even BDAG shies away from that glare. Perhaps that's where the currents have gone awry. When you confess Christ, fear not, let it out, with charisma, con brio del gusto, in ultro vivo-type thing. Dance like deer, leap for joy, for once you were blind but now you can see, once far brought near, once a stranger now part of the furniture. For He has restored the years that the locust has eaten!

Josh 10:5-15 five kings band together to make war against Israel and were defeated.

The enemies of Joshua were made his footstool then destroyed. They did not become faithful, obedient members of his army.
The enemies of Jesus become His footstool, as the enemies of Joshua did, and nowhere is it written that those enemies will be reconciled.

The 5 kings are back. Sorry, but I just don't find that persuasive der Alte. It's like a theological Ponzi Scheme. Build back better my friend. The earth is God's footstool. He doesn't 'crush it like a bug'.

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. (2 Cor 5:19)

Oh they'll be reconciled alright, we just need to reassure them it's inevitable. Graced! You're all consigned to eternity in heaven, to burn forever as flaming ministers of God.

Capisce, don Alte?
 
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Silly Uncle Wayne

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Hello you and welcome,

Very dicey question here -> Feel free to respond for no judgement here on your subjections.

Do you believe in what 1 Timothy 4:10 says is truth? God is the Saviour of all people?

What are your thoughts on this.

Well if you think this is promoting universalism, no I don't agree with you, but that doesn't mean I don't believe in what 1 Timothy 4:10 says.

It might be better to ask the question - do you believe in what 1 Timothy says, because if you do you have to include the verses that are in opposition to Universalism: '...some will desert the faith and occupy themselves with deceiving spirits'

God is the saviour of all people. He offers his gift freely... but not all will take up that gift, which is why those who do accept it are singled out.
 
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AubreyM

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Hello @Silly Uncle Wayne

I dont believe in universalism - Universalism is the sense of Doesn't matter what you do everyone is going to heaven.

My position is that -> The only way to the kingdom of heaven -> is the Lord Jesus Christ -> to get to the Father in relationship with them.

There is no other way.

Thank you for asking brother.
 
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Der Alte

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That may be your most ambitious claim yet, der Alte. I'm guessing even BDAG shies away from that glare. Perhaps that's where the currents have gone awry. When you confess Christ, fear not, let it out, with charisma, con brio del gusto, in ultro vivo-type thing. Dance like deer, leap for joy, for once you were blind but now you can see, once far brought near, once a stranger now part of the furniture. For He has restored the years that the locust has eaten!
The 5 kings are back. Sorry, but I just don't find that persuasive der Alte. It's like a theological Ponzi Scheme. Build back better my friend. The earth is God's footstool. He doesn't 'crush it like a bug'.
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. (2 Cor 5:19)
Oh they'll be reconciled alright, we just need to reassure them it's inevitable. Graced! You're all consigned to eternity in heaven, to burn forever as flaming ministers of God.
Capisce, don Alte?
The typical heterodox "You're wrong and I'm right! Am too, nuh huh!" response.
I have both hard bound and digital BDAG please feel free to quote from either.
Meanwhile consider.

Romans 11:21-22
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
If one does not continue in God’s goodness they will be cut off
John 15:6
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Jesus speaking needs no comment.
1 Corinthians 15:2
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
If one does not keep in memory what was preached they are not saved.
Galatians 6:9
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
If one faints they will not reap.
Hebrews 3:6
6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
If one does not hold fast they are not part of Jesus’ house.
Hebrews 3:14
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
If one is not steadfast until the end they are not partakers of Christ.
Hebrews 10:38-39
38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
If one draws back Jesus will have no pleasure in him.
Colossians 1:22-23
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
If one does not continue in the faith and is moved away from the hope of the gospel, they will not be presented holy, unblameable and unreproveable in God’s sight
Hebrews 3:6
6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
If we do not hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end we are not God’s house.
Hebrews 3:14
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
If we do NOT hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end, we are NOT made partakers of Christ!
If one is not in Christ they cannot abide.
 
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The typical heterodox "You're wrong and I'm right! Am too, nuh huh!" response.

Idk how you get that der Alte, except by ignoring my reply. If you want to 'confess' Jesus' name in resentful perfunctory genuflection, that's your business, but it surely isn't what the living word is about, nor the definition of 'exomolgeo'.
 
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Clare73

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Hello you and welcome,

Very dicey question here -> Feel free to respond for no judgement here on your subjections.

Have you ever come across this scripture before?

This is why we work hard and continue to struggle, for our hope is in the living God, who is the Savior of all people and particularly of all believers. 1 Timothy 4:10​

The understanding of looking at the verses is this

Paul is writing to Timothy encouraging him to continue even through tribulations or struggle - in hope of the living God.

The Living God who is the Saviour of all people. (All people meaning everyone regardless even if they reject, or have not yet to come to understanding of God and the Lord Jesus Christ)

Particularly of all believers -> This part is indicating that God is even the saviour of those who believe because -> They made the choice to turn towards God through being told the truth of the Lord Jesus Christ and accepting and believing in him -> Which John (1:12) indicates anyone who believes on the Lord become children of God. -> according to Romans (5:1-6) talks about how we are justified by peace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ we have peace with God, and that the holy spirit of God's love is given to us, and also includes that Christ died for the ungodly -> So God is the savior of all mankind. Particularly of all believers for all of what is given because of their faith on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Do you believe in what 1 Timothy 4:10 says is truth? God is the Saviour of all people?

What are your thoughts on this.
He offers himself as Savior to all mankind, but he is actually Savior only of all those who believe.
 
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He offers himself as Savior to all mankind, but he is actually Savior only of all those who believe.

For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. (1 Tim 4:10)

Are you familiar with the saying, 'Everything looks yellow to the jaundiced eye', Clare?
 
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Der Alte

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Idk how you get that der Alte, except by ignoring my reply. If you want to 'confess' Jesus' name in resentful perfunctory genuflection, that's your business, but it surely isn't what the living word is about, nor the definition of 'exomolgeo'.
What does scripture mean when it says "until I make your enemies your footstool?" And where does scripture specifically say those enemies will become loving followers of Jesus?
You don't know the meaning of "exomolegeo." All you know is what 19th century Strong's says. The online Strong's has been found to have about 15,000 errors or omissions. Here is a link to the online 1950 edition of BGAD as it was called then.
Scroll down to ejxomologevw
A Greek-English Lexicon Gingrich & Danker

For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. (1 Tim 4:10)
Are you familiar with the saying, 'Everything looks yellow to the jaundiced eye', Clare?
My Bible has 31,172 verses. All verses must harmonize. One verse cannot negate any other verse.
Revelation 21:4-8
4. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Although God said “no more death,” vs. 4 and “I make all things new,” vs. 5, in vs. 8, eight groups of sinful people are cast into the lake of fire, which despite “no more death,” vs 4, is still “the second death.”
…..Note in vs. 7 God specifies conditions i.e. “He that overcomes shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.”
God does not say everyone shall inherit all things etc. The converse of that stated condition is, “He that does NOT overcome shall NOT inherit all things; and I will NOT be his God, and he shall NOT be my son.”
Salvation is not mentioned after this in Rev.

Revelation 22:11-12
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
If everybody has been saved how can there still be unjust and filthy. Jesus does not say He will save everyone but let the unjust and filthy remain as they are.
Revelation 22:15
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
If everybody has been saved how can there still be dogs, sorcerers, whoremongers, murderers, idolaters and liars?
Revelation 22:18-19
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and OUT of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
If everyone was saved in Rev 21 why are these warnings still in the Bible?
Two more verses- The End. No more salvation.


 
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What does scripture mean when it says "until I make your enemies your footstool?" And where does scripture specifically say those enemies will become loving followers of Jesus?

Well, do you know anyone who God converted who He gutted and hanged from trees? Neither do I. It means the former enemies will prostrate ourselves in worship. Every knee bowing. Come on der Alte, give it up man.

My Bible has 31,172 verses. All verses must harmonize. One verse cannot negate any other verse.

When you find an apparent contradiction, Rejoice! for you are on the road to a great discovery, you've hit a Remez on the road to Pardes.

..Note in vs. 7 God specifies conditions i.e. “He that overcomes shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.”
God does not say everyone shall inherit all things etc. The converse of that stated condition is, “He that does NOT overcome shall NOT inherit all things; and I will NOT be his God, and he shall NOT be my son.”

That's right, so we'd better overcome (by purchasing gold refined in the fire and/or washing our robes in the blood of the Lamb) so that we may have a right to enter the city.

It's a great motivational, isn't it?

If everybody has been saved how can there still be dogs, sorcerers, whoremongers, murderers, idolaters and liars?
Revelation 22:18-19
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and OUT of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

They're being saved. As in 'I am making all things new'. It is the process of overcoming, of sanctification with the help of all the agents of divine grace and mercy. Those reprobates need a lot of encouragement.

If everyone was saved in Rev 21 why are these warnings still in the Bible?

For the same reason you don't put your hand in the toaster. It'll hurt, it's humiliating (ppl will laugh at your idiocy) and healing will be painful.

Lord have mercy!
 
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Der Alte

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Well, do you know anyone who God converted who He gutted and hanged from trees? Neither do I. It means the former enemies will prostrate ourselves in worship. Every knee bowing. Come on der Alte, give it up man.
When you find an apparent contradiction, Rejoice! for you are on the road to a great discovery, you've hit a Remez on the road to Pardes.
That's right, so we'd better overcome (by purchasing gold refined in the fire and/or washing our robes in the blood of the Lamb) so that we may have a right to enter the city.
It's a great motivational, isn't it?
They're being saved. As in 'I am making all things new'. It is the process of overcoming, of sanctification with the help of all the agents of divine grace and mercy. Those reprobates need a lot of encouragement.
For the same reason you don't put your hand in the toaster. It'll hurt, it's humiliating (ppl will laugh at your idiocy) and healing will be painful.
Lord have mercy!
Meaningless babble which does not provide a cogent response to anything.
 
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renniks

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Hello you and welcome,

Very dicey question here -> Feel free to respond for no judgement here on your subjections.

Have you ever come across this scripture before?

This is why we work hard and continue to struggle, for our hope is in the living God, who is the Savior of all people and particularly of all believers. 1 Timothy 4:10​

The understanding of looking at the verses is this

Paul is writing to Timothy encouraging him to continue even through tribulations or struggle - in hope of the living God.

The Living God who is the Saviour of all people. (All people meaning everyone regardless even if they reject, or have not yet to come to understanding of God and the Lord Jesus Christ)

Particularly of all believers -> This part is indicating that God is even the saviour of those who believe because -> They made the choice to turn towards God through being told the truth of the Lord Jesus Christ and accepting and believing in him -> Which John (1:12) indicates anyone who believes on the Lord become children of God. -> according to Romans (5:1-6) talks about how we are justified by peace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ we have peace with God, and that the holy spirit of God's love is given to us, and also includes that Christ died for the ungodly -> So God is the savior of all mankind. Particularly of all believers for all of what is given because of their faith on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Do you believe in what 1 Timothy 4:10 says is truth? God is the Saviour of all people?

What are your thoughts on this.



Yes. This is not about universalism.
Absolutely.
I have no doubt you've already got some Calvinists trying to interpret that verse away... I just read the OP.
 
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Jaxxi

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Hello you and welcome,

Very dicey question here -> Feel free to respond for no judgement here on your subjections.

Have you ever come across this scripture before?

This is why we work hard and continue to struggle, for our hope is in the living God, who is the Savior of all people and particularly of all believers. 1 Timothy 4:10​

The understanding of looking at the verses is this

Paul is writing to Timothy encouraging him to continue even through tribulations or struggle - in hope of the living God.

The Living God who is the Saviour of all people. (All people meaning everyone regardless even if they reject, or have not yet to come to understanding of God and the Lord Jesus Christ)

Particularly of all believers -> This part is indicating that God is even the saviour of those who believe because -> They made the choice to turn towards God through being told the truth of the Lord Jesus Christ and accepting and believing in him -> Which John (1:12) indicates anyone who believes on the Lord become children of God. -> according to Romans (5:1-6) talks about how we are justified by peace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ we have peace with God, and that the holy spirit of God's love is given to us, and also includes that Christ died for the ungodly -> So God is the savior of all mankind. Particularly of all believers for all of what is given because of their faith on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Do you believe in what 1 Timothy 4:10 says is truth? God is the Saviour of all people?

What are your thoughts on this.



Yes. This is not about universalism.

Yes. God is the Savior of all people, the invitation is there. The choice becomes theirs. The event is open to all. Let's say that repentance is the RSVP. Like any other event, not all people want to go to it. Many will throw the invitation in the trash. Many will be too busy or will be too important to attend. Many will think they don't want to go but will RSVP at the last minute and decide to go. You must RSVP in order to get into the event. That is just how it works, and after the event has started, you cannot just decide to change your mind and crash the event and get in anyways. You also cannot RSVP after the event starts. It does not work like that. So yes it is open to all, but most will not be in attendance. This of course makes the host very very sad, but He tried. They had the same opportunity as everyone else.
 
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AubreyM

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Yes. God is the Savior of all people, the invitation is there. The choice becomes theirs. The event is open to all. Let's say that repentance is the RSVP. Like any other event, not all people want to go to it. Many will throw the invitation in the trash. Many will be too busy or will be too important to attend. Many will think they don't want to go but will RSVP at the last minute and decide to go. You must RSVP in order to get into the event. That is just how it works, and after the event has started, you cannot just decide to change your mind and crash the event and get in anyways. You also cannot RSVP after the event starts. It does not work like that. So yes it is open to all, but most will not be in attendance. This of course makes the host very very sad, but He tried. They had the same opportunity as everyone else.

Thank you for sharing this it reminds me of the Parable of the King who invited everyone to come in yet, everyone was to busy to come; and then the king ordered to go everywhere and invite people to come in and some did.

One man was not wearing a wedding garment and was in his regular clothes -> he did not change so he was thrown out.
 
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Jaxxi

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Thank you for sharing this it reminds me of the Parable of the King who invited everyone to come in yet, everyone was to busy to come; and then the king ordered to go everywhere and invite people to come in and some did.

One man was not wearing a wedding garment and was in his regular clothes -> he did not change so he was thrown out.
Exactly. I just reworded it because some people don't always understand scripture as it is written. :liturgy: So that's just my take on the parable. I think it is true too. It is easy for us to think that we don't have to do anything the way we are taught, " Jesus died for the salvation of humanity," so there are countless people who die without repenting because they thought what Jesus did was enough. And it IS enough, should we repent and turn from our sin and love Him with all of our being. The church should teach " Jesus died for our sins but we must repent." I was never taught that as a kid. It was just " Jesus died for our sins." That is an incomplete message and it makes me sad.
 
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Shrewd Manager

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One man was not wearing a wedding garment and was in his regular clothes -> he did not change so he was thrown out.

But what becomes of that man? He's standing there in the dark outside the party, ejected due to his poor choice of attire. What would you do? Me, I'd want to get back in to enjoy the party. And what's the condition? That I change my apparel, wash my robes in the Lamb's blood, in the lake of fire as it were, and don the clean white fine linen. Well off I go, the eternal fire's not going out in a hurry, the gates to the party are always open, the invitation stands, maybe the wedding ends but the reception is just beginning. Just that one condition of entry needs to be redressed...

Some ppl seem to think there's just a select few whooping it up inside while the many are left mooching around in the dark forever. But that's not how the parable goes. There's always hope.
 
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Ceallaigh

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Since I am retired, retired, retired+, I have ample time to delve. I don't stutter I am retired times 3. 1st time 22 years, 2nd time 25 years, 3d time age 65 now I am semi retired.
“aionios” occurs 72x in the N.T.
“aionios” is translated world only 5 times in the N.T.
……….….………eternal 42 times in the N.T.
……….….………everlasting 25 times in the N.T.
Jesus used “aionios” 28 times Jesus never uses “aionios” to refer something ordinary/mundane which was not/could not be “eternal.”
= = = = = = = = = =
In twenty four [24] of the following verses aion and aionios are defined/described as eternal, everlasting, eternity etc, by paralleling or juxtaposition with other adjectives or adjectival phrases.
= = = = = = = = = =
…..Some people claim that “aion/aionios” never means eternity/eternal because they sometimes refer to things which are not eternal.
However, neither word is ever defined/described, by other adjectives or adjectival phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, in the New Testament, as in the following verses.
…..Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight times. He never used “aionios” to refer to anything ordinary or mundane that was not or could not be eternal.
In the following ten verses Jesus defines “aionios” as “eternal.”

[1] Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [basileusei][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [aionas] and of his kingdom [basileias][Nn] there shall be no end.[telos]
In this verse the reign/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.
[2] John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[aionios]
In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[3] John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”
[4]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.
[5] John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life.
In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.
[6]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [aionios] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.
[7]John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
In this verse Jesus juxtaposed aionios life with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.
[8]John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never [ου μη/ou mé] thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [aionios] life.
In this verse Jesus paralleled aionios with “shall [ου μη/ou mé][fn] never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal. See note [fn] on “ou mé” below.
[9]John 6:27
(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
In this verse Jesus contrasted “aionios meat” with “meat that perishes” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.
[10]John 8:51
(51) Very truly [amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ou mé eis ton aiona][fn] see death."
[fn]●The double negative [ου μη] signifies in nowise, by no means. Θεωρήσῃ[theōrésé], denoting steady, protracted vision, is purposely used, because the promise contemplates the entire course of the believer's life in Christ. It is not, shall not die forever, but shall live eternally.
● ④οὐ marker of reinforced negation, in combination w. μή, οὐ μή has the effect of strengthening the negation (Kühner-G. II 221–23; Schwyzer II 317; Mlt. 187–92 [a thorough treatment of NT usage]; B-D-F §365; RLudwig: D. prophet. Wort 31 ’37, 272–79; JLee, NovT 27, ’85, 18–23; B-D-F §365.—Pla., Hdt. et al. [Kühner-G. loc. cit.]; SIG 1042, 16; POxy 119, 5, 14f; 903, 16; PGM 5, 279; 13, 321; LXX; TestAbr A 8 p. 85, 11 [Stone p. 46]; JosAs 20:3; GrBar 1:7; ApcEsdr 2:7; Just., D. 141, 2). οὐ μή is the most decisive way of negativing something in the future.

Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000)A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian Literature.(3rd Ed). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
● The combinations with οὐ μή also be noticed as, ουδεν οὐ μή (Lu. 10:19); οὐ μή se σε άνο ουδ ου σε εγκαταιπο (Heb. 13:5); ουκετι οὐ μή (Rev. 18:14). There is no denying the power of this accumulation of negatives. Cf. the English hymn "I'll never, no never, no never forsake."
Grammar Of The Greek New Testament In The Light Of Historical Research
By A. T. Robertson, M.A., D.D., Ll.D., Litt.D. p.1165.
= = = = = = = = = =
Paul used the word “aionios” 23 times. It is translated “eternal/everlasting” 20 times and world 3 times. In the following 12 verses Paul defines “aionios” as eternal.

[11]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [aionios] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios life” with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”
[12]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [tou aionios] and ever! [ton aionion] Amen.
In this verse Paul parallels “tou aionios ton aionion” with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.
[13]Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
[14]Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” In this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.
[15]2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [aionios] weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [aionios]
In this passage Paul juxtaposes “aionios” with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” an indeterminate finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary” “eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[16]2 Corinthians 5:1
(1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [aionios] in the heavens.
In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios house” with “earthly house which is destroyed.” Is God going to replace our destroyed earthly house with a house which only lasts a little longer and will be destroyed at the end of an age? The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus, “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[17]1 Timothy 6:16
(16) Who only hath immortality, [aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting [aionios]
In this verse Paul paralleled “aionios” with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”
[18]Galatians 6:8
(8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; [fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [aionios]
In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios” with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”
[19]Romans 2:7
(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [apftharsia] he will give eternal [aionios] life.
In this verse Paul parallels “aionios” with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers do not seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”
[20]1 Timothy 1:17.
(17) Now unto the King eternal, [aion] immortal, [aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [aion] and ever [aionios]. Amen.
In this verse Paul parallels “aion” with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
[21]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [aionios] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios life” with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”
[22]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [tou aionios] and ever! [ton aionion] Amen.
In this verse Paul parallels “tou aionios ton aionion” with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.
[23]Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [aion] he has an unchangeable [aparabatos] priesthood.
In this verse “aion” is parallels with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue for only a “finite period” and simultaneously be “unchangeable.” Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
[24]1 Peter 1:23
(23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God. …
1 Peter 1:25
(25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.
In verse 23 Peter parallels “word of God” with “imperishable.” The same writer, Peter, in the same writing 1 Peter, in verse 25 writes the word of God “endures eis ton aiona/unto eternity. ” The word of God is not a finite age long but imperishable. Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity”
[25]1 Peter 5:10
(10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.
In this verse Peter contrasted “aionios” with “little while” Jesus does not give His followers a finite period of glory then they eventually die. Thus “aionios” here, by definition, means “eternal.”
[26]Revelation 14:11
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paralleled with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”

There are professional Greek translators who translate it as age or age-during.

Revalation 14:11 reads:
11 and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages in Young's Literal Transition.
 
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