Do you believe in Hell and why?/why not?

[MrPolo]

The Catholic church must have invented the idea 100's of years before Christ... amazing!

Here's just one sample out of many possible, "In those days they shall be led off to the abyss of fire: and to the torment and the prison in which they shall be confined for ever." (Enoch 10:13, Charles)

1 Enoch is demonstrably pre-Christian.

You beat me to it. It seems fanciful histories did not bother to consult Judaic pre-Christian texts, among others....

 

[Timothew]

I will call your bluff. The reason why you can't and won't even try to place a date on it is because among the Jews, the idea of eternal suffering in hell was pre-Christian.

Completely! It originated with the Pagan Greeks. However it is not biblical.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Completely! It originated with the Pagan Greeks. However it is not biblical.

Yaknow, except for Daniel 12:2 and Matthew 25:46.

 

[Timothew]

Yaknow, except for Daniel 12:2 and Matthew 25:46.

Daniel 12:2
Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

Hell? No. What is the opposite of everlasting life? How about death?


Matthew 25:46
Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.

The eternal punishment is death, just as the bible says in Romans 6:23, the wages of sin is death.

OK, neither of those verses say that there is a place called hell where dead people are tortured alive for all eternity.

 

[omanid]

for sure.

 

[Ceridwen]

From reading these threads and talking to people IRL, my rough estimate is that only one in ten people who identify as Christians believe that God returns a punishment of a curse for the violation of his law. "If you do not listen, and if you do not set your heart to honor my name, says the LORD Almighty, I will send a curse upon you." Mal. 2:2. Most Christians either believe that God will not take retribution on non-believers (the Evangelical view). Or, alternatively, that God will pour out his love upon nonbelievers and that this love is the fire of hell (the Eastern Orthodox view).

If there is no retributive, non-corrective punishment for crime from God, it undercuts the traditional Protestant understanding that Jesus was punished by the Father in our place. "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." Gal. 3:10-13.

 

[Sadalmelik]

You beat me to it. It seems fanciful histories did not bother to consult Judaic pre-Christian texts, among others....

this is utter nonsense......so because a few judaic texts espoused the idea of an eternal hell, it makes it so.....like others have rightfully pointed out....the few that did accept this idea, where did they get it from, did they have some epiphony? no, they got it from the pagans, they were the ones who accepted such docrtine well before those prechristian judaic texts were written.

further, the early christian church did not teach this rhetoric, in 1st century, paul did not teach at all of an eternal hellfire.....give me a break.
Romans 5:18-19, 11:26,32, 1 Corinthians 15:22-23, 2 Corinthians 5:15-19, Galatians 3:8-9, Ephesians 1:7-10, Philippians 1:9-11, Colossians 1:15-20, 1 Timothy 2:3-6, 4:9-10, Titus 2:11-12


and apostle John did not preach this either John 1:29, 4:42, 6:33, 51, 12:32, 1 John 2:2, 4:14, Revelation 5:13, 21:1-6.


for the first 500 yrs AD, there were 6 theological schools, 4 of which taught universalism (the 4 were Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa), 1 (Ephesus), accepted conditional mortality, and 1 (Carthage or Rome), taught endless punishment of the wicked, ya that surely sounds like the consensus to me.

 

[MrPolo]

this is utter nonsense......so because a few judaic texts espoused the idea of an eternal hell, it makes it so.

I did not make that assertion at this juncture. I countered the claim that Catholics invented the idea when it already existed before Christ. That is the only claim Summa and I debunked here so far. Maybe we'll break down the text of Protestant Bibles to see whether it's true or not another day.

 

[Sadalmelik]

I did not make that assertion at this juncture. I countered the claim that Catholics invented the idea when it already existed before Christ. That is the only claim Summa and I debunked here so far. Maybe we'll break down the text of Protestant Bibles to see whether it's true or not another day.

they may have not invented it, but they are the reason that it was widely accepted in the 1st place, because prior to them asserting it as their official doctrine, it was not a widely accepted doctrine...in fact it was the minority view up till that point.

 

[Timothew]

From reading these threads and talking to people IRL, my rough estimate is that only one in ten people who identify as Christians believe that God returns a punishment of a curse for the violation of his law. "If you do not listen, and if you do not set your heart to honor my name, says the LORD Almighty, I will send a curse upon you." Mal. 2:2. Most Christians either believe that God will not take retribution on non-believers (the Evangelical view). Or, alternatively, that God will pour out his love upon nonbelievers and that this love is the fire of hell (the Eastern Orthodox view).

If there is no retributive, non-corrective punishment for crime from God, it undercuts the traditional Protestant understanding that Jesus was punished by the Father in our place. "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." Gal. 3:10-13.

The curse of the law is death. That is why Christ died on the cross, He paid the penalty of sin for us, the penalty of sin is death. See Romans 6:23, The wages of sin is death. If the penalty for sin was eternal torture in hell, that penalty would reamin unpaid for to this day, because Jesus Christ was not eternally tortured in hell to pay the price for our sins.

 

[squint]

From reading these threads and talking to people IRL, my rough estimate is that only one in ten people who identify as Christians believe that God returns a punishment of a curse for the violation of his law. "If you do not listen, and if you do not set your heart to honor my name, says the LORD Almighty, I will send a curse upon you." Mal. 2:2. Most Christians either believe that God will not take retribution on non-believers (the Evangelical view).

When did that come about? It's getting to the point where nearly every sect condemns all other sects either outright to hell or potential of same in addition to everyone else who doesn't believe 'like them.'

Or, alternatively, that God will pour out his love upon nonbelievers and that this love is the fire of hell (the Eastern Orthodox view).

I've heard some E.O.er's try this out. The 'lake of fire' was 'prepared or made' for specific purposes of permanent containment/punishment/elimination. We know Love does no ill, so the notion then becomes 'the occupants' in the Lake of Fire punish themselves, which seems no more likely than them doing that here and now.

If there is no retributive, non-corrective punishment for crime from God, it undercuts the traditional Protestant understanding that Jesus was punished by the Father in our place. "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." Gal. 3:10-13.

The latter does not prohibit the former in the above. For example most believers would see that atonement would not beneficially apply whatsoever for the devil and his messengers. From there atonement is viewed as either limited or universal to mankind.

s

 

[dollarsbill]

Hell seems to be a popular subject. Is it Biblical? I have searched many English translations and cannot see how anyone can say that eternal punishment in Hell is not Biblical. Call it what you like, Hell, Lake of Fire, it is mentioned several times in the NT. Jesus said it is so horrifying that it is better to chop off body parts than to go there. How can it not be real? I hate to see anyone go to this place but many seem to be determined to get there.

Matthew 5:29-30
29 "If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 "If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.

 

[Ceridwen]

The curse of the law is death. That is why Christ died on the cross, He paid the penalty of sin for us, the penalty of sin is death. See Romans 6:23, The wages of sin is death. If the penalty for sin was eternal torture in hell, that penalty would reamin unpaid for to this day, because Jesus Christ was not eternally tortured in hell to pay the price for our sins.

Hey, at least you agree that Yahweh takes retribution on people for the violation of his law. He answers human sin with a punishment -- on the sinner or on Christ as substitute. This willingness to acknowledge that there is a divine punishment for evil distinguishes you from 9 out of 10 Evangelicals.

 

[Timothew]

Hell seems to be a popular subject. Is it Biblical? I have searched many English translations and cannot see how anyone can say that eternal punishment in Hell is not Biblical. Call it what you like, Hell, Lake of Fire, it is mentioned several times in the NT. Jesus said it is so horrifying that it is better to chop off body parts than to go there. How can it not be real? I hate to see anyone go to this place but many seem to be determined to get there.

Matthew 5:29-30
29 "If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 "If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.

That should say "whole body thrown into Gehenna" (vs 29) and "whole body go off into Gehenna" (vs 30). Gehenna is not "Hell", Gehenna is the Valley of Hinnom outside of Jerusalem. Look at how it says "Whole Body", if these verses supported the traditional view of hell, they would not say the body goes to hell. The traditional (false) view is that the soul goes to hell, not the body.

 

[dollarsbill]

That should say "whole body thrown into Gehenna" (vs 29) and "whole body go off into Gehenna" (vs 30). Gehenna is not "Hell", Gehenna is the Valley of Hinnom outside of Jerusalem. Look at how it says "Whole Body", if these verses supported the traditional view of hell, they would not say the body goes to hell. The traditional (false) view is that the soul goes to hell, not the body.

I quoted Jesus. Who are you quoting? Should say?

 

[Timothew]

I quoted Jesus. Who are you quoting? Should say?

You weren't quoting Jesus, you were quoting a translation of what Jesus said. Here is the original for Matthew 5:29 and 30. Hell is a poor translation of Gehenna. Gehenna was a real place, a valley outside of Jerusalem.
εἰ δὲ ὁ ὀφθαλμός σου ὁ δεξιὸς σκανδαλίζει σε ἔξελε αὐτὸν καὶ βάλε ἀπὸ σοῦ· συμφέρει γάρ σοι ἵνα ἀπόληται ἓν τῶν μελῶν σου καὶ μὴ ὅλον τὸ σῶμα σου βληθῇ εἰς γέενναν. καὶ εἰ ἡ δεξιά σου χεὶρ σκανδαλίζει σε, ἔκκοψον αὐτὴν καὶ βάλε ἁπὸ σοῦ· συμφέρει γάρ σοι ἵνα ἀπόληται ἓν τῶν μελῶν σου καὶ μὴ ὅλον τὸ σῶμα σου εἰς γέενναν ἀπέλθῃ.
I've highlighted ge'ennan (Gehenna) for you.

 

[dollarsbill]

You weren't quoting Jesus, you were quoting a translation of what Jesus said. Here is the original for Matthew 5:29 and 30. Hell is a poor translation of Gehenna. Gehenna was a real place, a valley outside of Jerusalem.
εἰ δὲ ὁ ὀφθαλμός σου ὁ δεξιὸς σκανδαλίζει σε ἔξελε αὐτὸν καὶ βάλε ἀπὸ σοῦ· συμφέρει γάρ σοι ἵνα ἀπόληται ἓν τῶν μελῶν σου καὶ μὴ ὅλον τὸ σῶμα σου βληθῇ εἰς γέενναν. καὶ εἰ ἡ δεξιά σου χεὶρ σκανδαλίζει σε, ἔκκοψον αὐτὴν καὶ βάλε ἁπὸ σοῦ· συμφέρει γάρ σοι ἵνα ἀπόληται ἓν τῶν μελῶν σου καὶ μὴ ὅλον τὸ σῶμα σου εἰς γέενναν ἀπέλθῃ.
I've highlighted ge'ennan (Gehenna) for you.

The message is clear.

Matthew 5:30 (ESV)
30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.

Matthew 5:30 (ASV)
30 And if thy right hand causeth thee to stumble, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not thy whole body go into hell.

Matthew 5:30 (NIV)
30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

Matthew 5:30 (NASB)
30 "If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.

Matthew 5:30 (NKJV)
30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.

Matthew 5:30 (BBE)
30 And if your right hand is a cause of trouble to you, let it be cut off and put it away from you; because it is better to undergo the loss of one part, than for all your body to go into hell.

Matthew 5:30 (Darby)
30 And if thy right hand be a snare to thee, cut it off and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members perish, and not thy whole body be cast into hell.

Matthew 5:30 (NLT)
30 And if your hand—even your stronger hand—causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

Matthew 5:30 (NRSV)
30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better for you to lose one of your members than for your whole body to go into hell.

Matthew 5:30 (TLB)
30 And if your hand—even your right hand—causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. Better that than find yourself in hell.

Matthew 5:30 (GW)
30 And if your right hand leads you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose a part of your body than to have all of it go into hell.

Matthew 5:30 (KJV)
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Matthew 5:30 (NASB77)
30 "And if your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to go into hell.

New Living Translation 2007
So if your eye--even your good eye--causes you to lust, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

Matthew 5:30 (WesleyNT)
30 And if thy right-hand cause thee to offend, cut it off and cast it from thee; for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

International Standard Version 2008
So if your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one of your body parts than to have your whole body thrown into hell.

American King James Version
And if your right eye offend you, pluck it out, and cast it from you: for it is profitable for you that one of your members should perish, and not that your whole body should be cast into hell.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And if thy right eye scandalize thee, pluck it out and cast it from thee. For it is expedient for thee that one of thy members should perish, rather than that thy whole body be cast into hell.

English Revised V.
And if thy right eye causeth thee to stumble, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not thy whole body be cast into hell.

Webster’s
And if thy right eye shall cause thee to sin, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

 

[Timothew]

Those are all translations. The original says Gehenna, not Hell. Gehenna is the Valley of Gehenna outside of Jerusalem. Gehenna literally means Ge (Valley) of Hinnom.

 

[dollarsbill]

Those are all translations. The original says Gehenna, not Hell. Gehenna is the Valley of Gehenna outside of Jerusalem. Gehenna literally means Ge (Valley) of Hinnom.

I have no doubt that is true. Jesus was using it as an illustration of the eternal fire. Hell.

Matthew 10:28
28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[Timothew]

I have no doubt that is true. Jesus was using it as an illustration of the eternal fire. Hell.

Matthew 10:28
28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Gehenna is not "Hell", Gehenna is the Valley of Hinnom outside of Jerusalem. Look at how it says "Whole Body", if these verses supported the traditional view of hell, they would not say the body goes to hell. The traditional (false) view is that the soul goes to hell, not the body.