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cf4rc said:
I assure you, this is not some stamp of 666 on our forehead.
It will be no such pre tribulation. If you read carefully in the parable of the ten virgins and in the other instances mentioned before, the amount of persons taken is equal to the amount of persons left.
This is a clear indication that instead referring to different persons, Jesus makes allusion of the spiritual and physical qualities of the same persons. In other words, our physical bodies will be the only ones left behind.
1 Cor 5:5 "To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the lord Jesus."
Israel was one nation of 12 tribes.Good morning to you Zeke.
Ok, we won't call them Jews.
The 144,000 are from the 12 tribes of Israel. They are not gentiles. The Bible is pretty specific about who these 144,000 are.
wrong parable...
my original post in this thread, shows that taken or left,
depends on which parable we are speaking about
since the taken or left part (the OP's question) is in Mat24
and NOT talking about the 10 virgins,
it is inappropriate for you to use that parable in your explanation...
a fact that I already shared in this thread.
seriously...
the parables to use for understanding this,
follow the taken or left, in the scriptures...understand?
so look to Mat24 for the explanation....not to the 10 virgins.
again, wrong parable..
stick with the context...Mat24...
remember the OP
the "they" that were taken in Noah's flood, was not Noah and his family
that is how it will be in the end times...
read the scriptures...the answer is right there, as I have posted twice in this thread.
the They/Them are the ones on whom judgment fell...
they were taken in the flood.
Noah was not
depends on which angle you see the events from...
a rescue boat comes to rescue,
and everyone that does not get into the boat will be taken to death....by the flood....
only those left behind on the boat will not perish
note what the WORK is...
grinding at the Mill, a watchman, and someone working in the fields...
these are metaphors for working for the Lord
on the other hand, 5 of those virgins WENT/TAKEN to get oil at the last moment.
and 5 STAYED/WERE LEFT, they did not go and look for oil at the last moment.
instead, THEY STAYED and married the Groom when He came HERE
REMEMBER THAT THE 5 THAT WENT AWAY FOR OIL, MISSED THE WEDDING.
only the 5 that were LEFT married the Groom.
and we are...
what is simple, is that the Lord already explaining who the THEY were that were taken by the flood in Noah's day...
THEY who got taken, are the ones that Judgment falls on.
those who are left, were saved.
not...they came out of tribulation....their tribulation...
they died in the flesh and are now in heaven...
simple...the dead.
the dead part of the church that is considered first fruits,
just as the 144,000 alive on earth are considered first fruits
they are not any raptured group.
KJV-14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
you (or your translation) have added a "the" to "great tribulation".
these are simply the dead believers.
we have to stay because God said so.
Christ comes to gather us at the end...after....
so, that is good enough for me
well, to many, those parable are not meant to be understood...
hence the parable in the first place.
and since His Children are rather split on their opinions on what the LEFT BEHIND means,
i'd say that some of us are not hearing Him
lol...not.
look in Mat24...the THEY that got TAKEN in the flood of Noah'as day
same example is given to us...
Hey, Satan even has a flood that come out of his mouth in the end times.
no coincidence.
no kidding...no disappearance period.
since when is literal action a seal that is OPENED by CHRIST?
Aren't these the same seals as Daniel was told to close?
can you CLOSE a literal event?
info, not literal events.
the literal events are seen in the following chapters of Rev.
wrong parable...stay in context...
even so, the 5 that were LEFT, STAYED and MARRIED the Groom.
the 5 that went, missed the wedding.
and you just do not understand that Rev repeats itself over and over again...
we are here for it all...
the wrath of God is REALIZED later in Rev....
see Rev11 and Rev16
God's wrath follows the trib
but Satan's wrath, that is the trib. and we are here for it all.
yep! all this has to happen before Christ comes a gatherin'!
exactly...see there are some things we can agree on!
but lets not forget the context in which the OP was asked...
so I'll repeat again....and repeat my post to Choose Wisely,
which seems strait forward enough...
stay in context...
the context is, who is working for the Lord when He comes?
be edified!
Peace to you...
Please consider this:
The church is not spoken directly to or mentioned again after the seven letters written to them (the churches of that time and what we compare to the churches of today) for a reason...it was no longer necessary!
First: All the book of Revelation is to be revealed to and for the church!
What God gave to Jesus Christ He in turn sent to John by His angel.
John wrote what the angel revealed to him for the church.
Revelation 1:1; *The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants (the churches then and now) things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John:
The following is revealed by Jesus Christ Himself to John the Revelator of the Book of Revelation.
Christ is telling John to send (reveal) all of what is to be spoken by Him to the churches (to them then and also for us now).
This is how He begins;
Revelation 1:11; *Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send [it] unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
Then the letters to the individual churches begins with Revelation 2:1 with what was repeated six times and ends with the seventh time in
Revelation 3:22; *He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Second: Every word from Revelation 1:11 to Revelation 3:22 has been to, about and for the churches (then and now).
In these passages all that needs to be said to, about and for the churches in a direct way, talking to and mentioning them, has been accomplished...
Christ has finished giving them (and us) all the commendations, criticism, instruction and promises that He deems necessary.
Therefore, there is no reason at all for Him to repeat what has been said to them or to mention them again!
Third: Revelation 1:1 clearly explains to us now that the entire remaining book of Revelation is, without the church being mentioned again, about what He wants revealed for the church (us) to know.
Israel and the 12 tribes...12,000 per tribe x 12 = 144,000
Now,of this subject I will definately be speaking off the top of my head at this time as I have not given study to this subject...
But this is what "I think" may be true...
The Lord is going to use these 144,000 to be a witness of Him and are the chosen from Israel. They have lived a life of celebacy because they are "virgins" in respect to women and their commitment to God and are therefore probably of Priestly lineage.
But, I don't believe that God would use just those of Israel, including His "two witnesses" from Revelation chapter 11, to be His witnesses. They, I believe, are to be witnesses of Him in Israel only.
If I am correct, it only makes sense that God would want witnesses from all over the world helping lead people to salvation through Christ. Especially in these times which may be the last chance for many to hear, see and understand the Gospel of Christ which will unbind the chains of sin and redeem them to the forgiveness and grace of God the Father.
Each one of us, as here, might be "the one" person to say the "right thing" at the "right time" to influence a person for the "fist time" to see things differently and "make a choice" they have never been willing to do before.
I want to be here to continue obeying the command of Matthew 28:19-20 so that I may be pleasing to and love our God as He first loved us.
peace and love...God Bless
Shalom friend mine,
Let me interject here just a little thought.
As of right now, the only people who know for sure that they are of the descendants of Jacob are the Jews who came out of Judah and Benjamin (with some from the other 10 tribes that did not want to assimilate into the nations). Rev. distinctly states 12000 from each tribe and proceeds to name the tribes.
You said you think they will be in Israel, and that is possible but I think it is just as possible that they will be world wide, for the diaspora remains, at least for the 10 "lost tribes." These were the Israelites who chose not to return to Jerusalem after the Babylonian (or Assyrian?) exile. They made a decision for themselves to assimilate but those today who have descended from them never had the chance to make a choice. They don't know their heritage, and for right now, there is no way to find this out, but I'll bet God will be able to send His 144,000 to just the right places and then there shall be another "regathering" to Israel.
You think?
.........
This eminent return doctrine does nothing more than make Christ himself a false prophet................
Eminent return................he could come at any time
Christ................................I will return when these events come to pass that I personally have foretold...........not to mention all of God's prophets who were inspired to foretell the same.
Let's see.....So what needs to happen before Christ can return?
Let's see.....
The earth must be rocked as the bithpangs climax, preceding the depature from the faith, caused by the strong delusion that the revealed antichrist has all the answers to our problems following the cataclysmic events which I earlier touched upon. This is of course all followed by another series of cataclysmic events signaling us to furhter ourselves from this false deliverer, while crying out to the Lord for forgiveness and protection.
The for the sake of the elect, us, He shortens the time, returns, calls us up, and smotes the earth who has rejected Him.
Praise and exalt Him above all forever!
Hello Zeke37...and Hellooooo to Yedida my friend......Good to have you here!!!
Zeke37 is right on...except for...and you too Yedida...except for...
Peace to you both...
The Zeke37 except for is:
we are here for it all...
Amen...Agree...
the wrath of God is REALIZED later in Rev....
see Rev11 and Rev16
God's wrath follows the trib
Sort of Agree...
As you say,the wrath you speak of in Revelation 11:18 and 16:19 "follows the tribulation"...for this is speaking of the wrath of Christ, God the Son, on the nations at His return...seventh trumpet and seventh bowl...it ends all tribulation of that time.
Disagree...
The 'wrath of God the Father' , not that of the Son, is mentioned 5 times...Revelation 14:10,19; 15:1,7 and 16:1...
and are all speaking of the Trumpet and Vile/Bowl Judgments of His wrath
as revealed in His scroll that was sealed (shut up and closed up to us) with seven seals. All that God's scroll reveals, Seals and the judgments of the Trumpets and the Viles/Bowls, does not come after or at the end of tribulation but are shown to absolutely be a part of the trib.
Revelation 5:7; And He (the Lamb) came and took the book (scroll) out of the right hand of Him (God the Father) that sat upon the throne.
The Lamb opens the scroll to loose the Seals, first 42 months of tribulation, and also reveal the Trumpets and Viles/Bowls written within and on the backside of the scroll which are the second 42 months of Great Tribulation...that is shortened.
Rev. 5:1; *And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne (God the Father) a book (scroll) written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
Rev. 5:2; *And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book (G455; to open - from the root word G303; into the midst, in the midst, amidst, among - to reveal what is in the midst of the book/scroll to the readers of Revelation), and (G2532; and, also, even, indeed - Webster's Dictionary; in addition to; and also) to loose (G3089; to loose any person or thing tied or fastened; to unbind, release from bonds, set free) the seals thereof (so they may be revealed, become active and be realized in that first 42 months).
What was shut up/closed up/sealed, in Daniel 12:4,9 until the time of the end, are now loosed by the Lamb in Revelation to give us knowledge and wisdom in these end days of the first 42 months of tribulation...revealed by the Seals...that we will not be deceived!
but Satan's wrath, that is the trib. and we are here for it all.
True, but only to a certain extent...
Satan's wrath comes when we are still here for it all as you said but it is only a part of Great Tribulation...which is the wrath of both Satan and God the Father here on earth at the same time...
The wrath of Satan, Rev.12:12, comes when he is cast out of heaven to the earth by Michael (an Arch Angel). This is also the beginning of God the Father's Wrath during the Great Tribulation seen in Revelation 14:6 to 16:16.
it's funny, no offense but I was thinking along the same lines,The Yedida except for is:
Finally, someone else who sees that all of the troubles of that 7yr period are NOT the wrath of God, but the wrath of satan against God's man (permitted by God, yes, wrought by Him, no).
Disagree...
Some of this is answered above...the wrath of Satan and God are both here during Great Tribulation...don't understand how someone can miss it.
Speaking of the 7 years:
There is no longer a seven year period as in Daniel 9:27...it is shortened in Matthew 24:22 and Mark 13:20; to 5 months in Revelation 9:5 and 9:10 and in Daniel 12:11-12 is stretched out from what was originally 1,260 days (shortened to 5 months, above) to 1,290 days (plus 30 days that equals 6 months) and 1,335 days (plus 45 days) that equals 71/2 months.
time will tell i guess...I have given this information before but I reckon, my dear friend, it just hasn't sunk in yet...maybe never will...huh...oh well, I sure wish you could see this...it is just so evident, to me, in these scriptures...
Hey, I respect your commitment to the Word and love ya anyway...and you know that is true...
Not many exceptions really...... ...out of all that was presented...
but, I believe these few are important ones...
peace and love to you both...God Bless
So what needs to happen before Christ can return?
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