Do we want to 'be taken' or 'left behind'?

[Super Kal]

"Christ will not come like a thief"

>Does He lie about this?

>I have scripture that states with no doubt that He has said it ... here is just one [Revelation 16:15]

"He NEVER once said we couldn't know the general time

>He said this according to scripture [Acts 1:7]

>You tell the exact opposites in you post above

>Why is this?

>I am always suspicious of one who refutes plain scripture

>Curious ..... who are you following ..... who has taught you these things?

read the scripture you posted again... in 16:15, he tells us to stay awake, just like He tells us to in Mark 13:37 "what I say to you I say to all: stay awake"

every thing has been revealed to us (Matt. 24:25)

in Acts 1:7, He was addressing the apostles directly... abd the interesting thing about that verse is that you dont even read on. If pre-trib was real, Christ would of said something along the lines of "I will come again at any time"... instead, he gives them the command to "be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."
you just based your ENTIRE theology based on ONE SCRIPTURE, when all other scripture says otherwise (1 Thes. 5:1-6, Mark 13:24-27, 32-37) and every other verse that uses "day" and "hour"... this is eisigesis at its finest.
you like every other pre-tribber out there falsely assumes and asserts their own personal opinions into scripture to make it say one thing when it means something else entirely

Christ comes like a thief to those unprepared and those in darkness (Matt. 24:36-42, 1 Thes. 5:1-3)
at the same time, the earth is completely wiped away and destroyed in its entirety(2 Peter 3:10)... His return is neither quiet or secret. It is loud, it is visible, and it happens all at once...

He does not come again a third time.

 

[zeke37]

So I think you are saying there is no rapture.

although i do not like the term "rapture" that is not what I am saying.

i am saying that there is no PRE trib rapture.

there is a gathering to Christ, (rapture if you must) but it is POST trib

If that's what you are saying, what do you do with Rev 14:14-20? John wrote that.

I had you down for a post tribber.

i love that chapter
Jesus comes to gather the faithful for sure!
and it is after the wrath of Satan..after the 7th trump has sounded
(which is before He pours out His vials of wrath in Rev16)

so, what do I do with Rev14? I wait for it's fulfillment eagerly!
But I sure hope that I am in the other group mentioned...the 144,000...

Yes I am a post tribber!

 

[Manasseh_]

Good points

maybe good points, but I misspelled "imminent"

 

[allhart]

although i do not like the term "rapture" that is not what I am saying.

i am saying that there is no PRE trib rapture.

there is a gathering to Christ, (rapture if you must) but it is POST trib

i love that chapter
Jesus comes to gather the faithful for sure!
and it is after the wrath of Satan..after the 7th trump has sounded
(which is before He pours out His vials of wrath in Rev16)

so, what do I do with Rev14? I wait for it's fulfillment eagerly!
But I sure hope that I am in the other group mentioned...the 144,000...

Yes I am a post tribber!

So the Church of Jesus Christ's, the bride isn't presented or availed by the Holy spirit to Christ? What makes you think or believe that the Church is left in the world? The Church isn't talked about or to........shows they have left the room ,no? The 12 tribes of Israel is on the scene.

Israel and the 12 tribes 12000 per tribe x 12 = 144000.

 

[cf4rc]

Peace to you...
I want to concentrate on this verse because I believe the English interpretation, as taught by many who support the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine, is wrong and needs to be corrected.
This is a somewhat detailed presentation but take your time and please seriously consider this information shared...

From CHOOSE WISELY...
Further........the one taken is the one caught up. Noah IS taken, he wasn't left.
1Thes 4
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

From me...
1 Thessalonians 4:17; Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Lexicon Results for Strong's G726 -- From Root Word G138
English - ’shall be caught up’
Greek - harpazo [har-pad'-zo]
Outline of Biblical Usage:​

1) to seize, carry off by force (chosen by most pre-tribulation rapture believers as the correct choice)
2) to seize on (grab hold of the opportunity), claim for one's self eagerly
3) to snatch (seize; catch) out or away (used as the ‘church’ being 'raptured', ‘taken out of the way')

Root Word - Strong’s G138
Greek - haireomai [hahee-reh'-om-ahee]
Outline of Biblical Usage:
Look closely at the only biblical usage of this Root Word​

1) to take for oneself (by choice, not force), to prefer, to choose (this only fits #2 above;
along with the following explanations it is the only one that makes sense)

Lexicon Results for Strong's G3507 -- From Root Word G3509
English - ’the clouds’
Greek - nephele [nef-el'-ay]
Outline of Biblical Usage: ​

1) a cloud (used of the cloud (singular) which led the Israelites in the wilderness) - this is as in the lexicon -
not my parenthesis.

Root Word - Strong's G3509
nephos {nef'-os}
Outline of Biblical Usage: ​

1) a cloud (great number/mass); a large dense multitude; (a great crowd); a throng (a crowd)

This alone makes the pre-trib rapture interpretation wrong!​

Lexicon Results for Strong's G529 -- From Root Word G575
English - ‘meet’
Greek- apantēsis [ä-pä'n-tā-sēs]
Outline of Biblical Usage:​

1) to meet one (come face to face - assemble with)

Root Word G575
apo [ä-po'] -a primary particle
Outline of Biblical Usage:​

1) of separation
a) of local separation, after verbs of motion from a place; of departing
b) of separation of a part from the whole
1) where of a whole (flesh body, soul and spirit) some part (flesh body) is taken (changed/transformed -
change shape or character [nature] of)

Lexicon Results for Strong's G109
English - ’the air’
Greek - aer [ah-ayr']
Outline of Biblical Usage:​

1) to breathe unconsciously (without thought); respire; to blow

Clearly NOT the Sky or Atmosphere:
This alone makes the pre-trib rapture interpretation wrong! ​

Note: ‘The air’ means the same ‘living, breathing spirit’ as ‘the breath of life’ in Genesis 2:7.


**1 Thessalonians 4:17; As can now be understood:
--Then we who are alive and have remained on earth shall eagerly claim our place together with the angels and
resurrected dead in the multitudes, to assemble with the Lord in our living, breathing spiritual body: and we
will be with the Lord forever.

More food for prayer and contemplation...to tuck away for future use.
peace and love...God Bless

 

[cf4rc]

So the Church of Jesus Christ's, the bride isn't presented or availed by the Holy spirit to Christ? What makes you think or believe that the Church is left in the world? The Church isn't talked about or to........shows they have left the room ,no? The 12 tribes of Israel is on the scene.

Israel and the 12 tribes 12000 per tribe x 12 = 144000.

Peace to you...
Please consider this:

The church is not spoken directly to or mentioned again after the seven letters written to them (the churches of that time and what we compare to the churches of today) for a reason...it was no longer necessary!

First: All the book of Revelation is to be revealed to and for the church!
What God gave to Jesus Christ He in turn sent to John by His angel.

John wrote what the angel revealed to him for the church.
Revelation 1:1; *The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants (the churches then and now) things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John:

The following is revealed by Jesus Christ Himself to John the Revelator of the Book of Revelation.
Christ is telling John to send (reveal) all of what is to be spoken by Him to the churches (to them then and also for us now).

This is how He begins;
Revelation 1:11; *Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send [it] unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Then the letters to the individual churches begins with Revelation 2:1 with what was repeated six times and ends with the seventh time in
Revelation 3:22; *He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Second: Every word from Revelation 1:11 to Revelation 3:22 has been to, about and for the churches (then and now).

In these passages all that needs to be said to, about and for the churches in a direct way, talking to and mentioning them, has been accomplished...
Christ has finished giving them (and us) all the commendations, criticism, instruction and promises that He deems necessary.

Therefore, there is no reason at all for Him to repeat what has been said to them or to mention them again!

Third: Revelation 1:1 clearly explains to us now that the entire remaining book of Revelation is, without the church being mentioned again, about what He wants revealed for the church (us) to know.

Israel and the 12 tribes...12,000 per tribe x 12 = 144,000

Now,of this subject I will definately be speaking off the top of my head at this time as I have not given study to this subject...

But this is what "I think" may be true...
The Lord is going to use these 144,000 to be a witness of Him and are the chosen from Israel. They have lived a life of celebacy because they are "virgins" in respect to women and their commitment to God and are therefore probably of Priestly lineage.

But, I don't believe that God would use just those of Israel, including His "two witnesses" from Revelation chapter 11, to be His witnesses. They, I believe, are to be witnesses of Him in Israel only.

If I am correct, it only makes sense that God would want witnesses from all over the world helping lead people to salvation through Christ. Especially in these times which may be the last chance for many to hear, see and understand the Gospel of Christ which will unbind the chains of sin and redeem them to the forgiveness and grace of God the Father.

Each one of us, as here, might be "the one" person to say the "right thing" at the "right time" to influence a person for the "fist time" to see things differently and "make a choice" they have never been willing to do before.

I want to be here to continue obeying the command of Matthew 28:19-20 so that I may be pleasing to and love our God as He first loved us.

peace and love...God Bless

 

[Truth Files]

The pre-tribulation church is seen in Revelation's unfolding .... in heaven .... and not on the earth

These are with the Lord and they observe His removing of the seals of the scroll just before His time of wrath and judgment begins

These who dwell in heaven [a state of immortality] during the tribulation are then seen with the Lord contending at Armageddon .... at the end of the the period .... these will then rule with Him over His millennial kingdom of mortals on the earth [those on thrones]

There are three distinctive sets of humans noted in Revelation as not being on the earth during the tribulation period:

1. The 24 elders immediately around the throne ..... the distinguished leaders of the church

2. The great multitude from every nation that no man can count standing before the throne composed of both the dead in christ, and those living at the time of the Lord's "harpazo" action to immortalize all of them together at the same moment just before His judgment of an unbelieving world begins

3. Those tribulation martyrs who are seen under the alter who have not received their immortal bodies and must wait until the end of the tribulation period for the rest of the new believers who will die in the Lord during the tribulation .... these will then receive their immortal bodies and will rule with Him over His millennial kingdom on the earth [those beheaded during the tribulation period]

If a professing believer is refuting against the Lord's early "harpazo" action for today's church, this may reflect a deeper problem

If one does go into the tribulation they will do so because they are fence sitting and have not been serious about their position with the Lord [Matthew 25:1-13; Revelation 3:15-19]

Once there, it will be very difficult for any human to deal with the conditions of the Lord's unprecedented judgments and will not repent ... and multitudes will fall in unbelief and will be lost forever

Check yourself out ..... are you ready? ..... the Lord says you must be, because if not, He will reject you and if you are living at the time you will enter His coming judgment

Do not let satan who works through false teachers draw you into the coming tribulation with him .... he will be raging on the earth deceiving and destroying as many as he can muster

 

[allhart]

Peace to you...
Please consider this:

The church is not spoken directly to or mentioned again after the seven letters written to them (the churches of that time and what we compare to the churches of today) for a reason...it was no longer necessary!

First: All the book of Revelation is to be revealed to and for the church!
What God gave to Jesus Christ He in turn sent to John by His angel.

John wrote what the angel revealed to him for the church.
Revelation 1:1; *The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants (the churches then and now) things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John:

The following is revealed by Jesus Christ Himself to John the Revelator of the Book of Revelation.
Christ is telling John to send (reveal) all of what is to be spoken by Him to the churches (to them then and also for us now).

This is how He begins;
Revelation 1:11; *Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send [it] unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Then the letters to the individual churches begins with Revelation 2:1 with what was repeated six times and ends with the seventh time in
Revelation 3:22; *He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Second: Every word from Revelation 1:11 to Revelation 3:22 has been to, about and for the churches (then and now).

In these passages all that needs to be said to, about and for the churches in a direct way, talking to and mentioning them, has been accomplished...
Christ has finished giving them (and us) all the commendations, criticism, instruction and promises that He deems necessary.

Therefore, there is no reason at all for Him to repeat what has been said to them or to mention them again!

Third: Revelation 1:1 clearly explains to us now that the entire remaining book of Revelation is, without the church being mentioned again, about what He wants revealed for the church (us) to know.

Israel and the 12 tribes...12,000 per tribe x 12 = 144,000

Now,of this subject I will definately be speaking off the top of my head at this time as I have not given study to this subject...

But this is what "I think" may be true...
The Lord is going to use these 144,000 to be a witness of Him and are the chosen from Israel. They have lived a life of celebacy because they are "virgins" in respect to women and their commitment to God and are therefore probably of Priestly lineage.

But, I don't believe that God would use just those of Israel, including His "two witnesses" from Revelation chapter 11, to be His witnesses. They, I believe, are to be witnesses of Him in Israel only.

If I am correct, it only makes sense that God would want witnesses from all over the world helping lead people to salvation through Christ. Especially in these times which may be the last chance for many to hear, see and understand the Gospel of Christ which will unbind the chains of sin and redeem them to the forgiveness and grace of God the Father.

Each one of us, as here, might be "the one" person to say the "right thing" at the "right time" to influence a person for the "fist time" to see things differently and "make a choice" they have never been willing to do before.

I want to be here to continue obeying the command of Matthew 28:19-20 so that I may be pleasing to and love our God as He first loved us.

peace and love...God Bless

Hey my friend......all I can say is that in my humble opinion......I hope we aren't here in the tribulation time. For evil will be running ramped. Right now I believe we are going to see the separation of the shaft and the wheat. The people that prefer God's way of life and those that live it out, out of conviction. All in all we better be on the guard and stand close to God. For if we don't decide before the fact we will land wherever we fall. Are we willing to die for God? Love ya brother thanks for all your time and information.

 

[zeke37]

So the Church of Jesus Christ's, the bride isn't presented or availed by the Holy spirit to Christ?

huh?

What makes you think or believe that the Church is left in the world?

the same reason that Noah was left in the world,
hence the reason for this thread.

the gathering to Christ is after the tribulation of those days. Mat24/Mar13, and when the Dead are raised back to life here again (1Thes4)

The Church isn't talked about or to........shows they have left the room ,no?

no....here are but 2 proofs of the church in Rev after Rev3.

in Rev1, Christ defines the 7 candlesticks as 7 churches.
He goes out of His way to explain this.
then in Rev2-3, the 7 churches/candlesticks are individually defined.
of the 7, 5 are chastised in some way, by Christ
only 2 are not chastised by Christ...and they share the same doctrine, that the other 5 do not.

so, we have God specifically defining candlesticks as churches in Rev1.
and the word candlesticks is used only one other time in all of Rev
it is in Rev11, where the 2 witnesses are defined as being the 2 candlesticks and the 2 olive trees

so, the two candlesticks (part of the two witnesses) are the 2 churches that God has no fault with.
and they are most assuredly against the beast in Rev11


also, Satan is cast out of Heaven in Rev12 for his short season of wrath
he goes after Christians in the last verse....

The 12 tribes of Israel is on the scene.

Israel was split into two houses and then both houses were scattered a long time ago...under the Assyrian and then the Babylonian.

they have migrated over time, lost their identity as Israel,
and become the Christian nations of today, basically.

Israel and the 12 tribes 12000 per tribe x 12 = 144000.

Jews do not equate to Israel.
the Jews were one tribe of twelve, and the largest tribe of one of 2 houses.

at the national split, Judah and Benjamin combined to make up the house of Judah

the northern Kingdom, the other 10 tribes, kept the name Israel,
until they were scattered.


this understanding is important to have, because the prophesy's that many suppose are meant for the Jews, are actually meant for us who "believe"

 

[realtruth101]

Amo 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
This is the very heart of the question that Christ's apostles asked him when he gave his Olivet Prophecy, Matt 24, Luke 21 and Mark 13

warning signs................the final events that will lead to the return of Christ.............then he gave a detailed description of the events that would lead up to his second coming...................

He gave even more details and information to John............Compare Matt 24 with Revelation 6............they are one in the same, to John Christ showed these events symbolically as seals that would be opened.





No it couldn't......................if that were the case then all prophecy foretelling of the final events would be useless and we could not rely on prophecy in scripture to give us warning.........

This eminent return doctrine does nothing more than make Christ himself a false prophet................

Eminent return................he could come at any time
Christ................................I will return when these events come to pass that I personally have foretold...........not to mention all of God's prophets who were inspired to foretell the same.

GREAT POST! No matter how simple you explain it, no matter how clearly the bible speaks about it, there are those who for the life of me, I can't understand, would rather set aside the plain and easy to understand passages and all the prophetic scripture about the second coming, and build a whole new second coming doctrine using vague and obscure passages, parables, and verses out of complete context. I just can't figure it out.

 

[Choose Wisely]

although i do not like the term "rapture" that is not what I am saying.

i am saying that there is no PRE trib rapture.

there is a gathering to Christ, (rapture if you must) but it is POST trib

i love that chapter
Jesus comes to gather the faithful for sure!
and it is after the wrath of Satan..after the 7th trump has sounded
(which is before He pours out His vials of wrath in Rev16)

so, what do I do with Rev14? I wait for it's fulfillment eagerly!
But I sure hope that I am in the other group mentioned...the 144,000...

Yes I am a post tribber!

Hi again Zeke,

The 144,000 are Jews. The time of Jacobs trouble is about the Jew and the nation of Israel.

 

[realtruth101]

So the Church of Jesus Christ's, the bride isn't presented or availed by the Holy spirit to Christ? What makes you think or believe that the Church is left in the world? The Church isn't talked about or to........shows they have left the room ,no? The 12 tribes of Israel is on the scene.

Israel and the 12 tribes 12000 per tribe x 12 = 144000.

A good rule to follow in bible doctrine, NEVER build doctrine on silence in the scripture.

 

[Bible2]

cf4rc said:

All the book of Revelation is to be revealed to and for the church!

Amen (Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16).

So we shouldn't read any significance into the fact that the specific word "church" is mentioned many times in Revelation chapters 1-3, but not mentioned again until Revelation 22, just as we shouldn't read any significance into the fact that the specific word "church" is mentioned many times in Romans 16, but not mentioned in Romans chapters 1-15.

The reason the word "church" is mentioned many times in Revelation chapters 1-3 is because those chapters are referring to seven literal first-century local church congregations in seven cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11).

The church (in the general sense) will definitely be in the tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18, because believers will definitely be in the tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18 (e.g. Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4), and there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5).

Also, just as the pre-tribulation-rapture view admits that Revelation 19 includes references to the church without using the specific word "church", so the pre-tribulation-rapture view should admit that Revelation chapters 6-18 can include references to the church without using the specific word "church".

cf4rc said:

Israel and the 12 tribes...12,000 per tribe x 12 = 144,000

Note that the 144,000 (Revelation 7:4-8, Revelation 14:1,3) are Christians (Revelation 14:4), and so they are members of the church (cf. Ephesians 4:4-5). They're the firstfruits of the church (Revelation 14:4) in the sense of them being the best part (cf. Numbers 18:12) of the church. They're male virgins (Revelation 14:4), and they could all be alive on the earth today. They will all be alive when the tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18 begins in the future, and so they will all enter into the tribulation (Revelation 7:4, Revelation 9:4), just as all the rest of the church alive on the earth when the tribulation starts will enter into the tribulation (cf. Revelation 7:9,14). For there will be no pre-tribulation rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Mark 13:24-27).

Also, note that the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church (Revelation 14:4) being from the twelve tribes of Israel (Revelation 7:4) doesn't require that the 144,000 consists of only Jewish Christians, who remain members of the tribe of Israel into which they were born (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). Instead, the 144,000 can include both Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians, for Gentile Christians will be in the tribulation (cf. Revelation 7:9,14), and all Gentile Christians of all times have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church of all times is the twelve tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9b,12b). This is necessary because the entire church of all times is saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, 1 Corinthians 11:25, 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), and the New Covenant is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34).

Note that the tribe of Dan is missing from the list of the twelve tribes of the 144,000 (Revelation 7:5-8). This is because the Israel the 144,000 are from isn't genetic Israel, with its twelve genetic tribes (Genesis 49:28) which include Dan (Genesis 49:17). Instead, the Israel the 144,000 are from is spiritual Israel, which is different than genetic Israel (Romans 9:3-8), and which consists of all the elect (Romans 9:11-13), both Jews and Gentiles (Romans 9:24).

Everyone in the church will be spiritually protected during the coming tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18, no matter what happens to them physically (Romans 8:35-37). And some in the church will also be physically protected during some or all of that time, while others in the church won't be physically protected during that time:

The 144,000 male-virgins part of the church (Revelation 14:4), along with some others in the church, will be physically protected so that they will survive the first stage of the coming tribulation (Revelation 6), while many others in the church won't be physically protected, so that they will die during that first stage, and their souls will enter into heaven (Revelation 7:9,14).

After the first stage of the tribulation is over, only the 144,000 part of the church will be sealed (Revelation 7:3-4) for physical protection (Revelation 9:4) before the seventh seal of the tribulation is unsealed (Revelation 8:1). Out of the seventh seal will come the seven trumpets of the tribulation (Revelation 8:1-2). The events of the first six trumpets up to Revelation 9:19 will be the second stage of the tribulation. The seal that the 144,000 will receive (which will be different from and in addition to the seal of the Holy Spirit himself which they and all other believers receive: Ephesians 1:13b) will physically protect them during this second stage (Revelation 9:4). Everyone else in the church still alive on the earth at that time won't necessarily be physically protected, but at least some will be.

This physical protection of some in the church but not others in the church during the coming tribulation will be similar to how the literal first-century local church congregation in the city of Philadelphia in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) was physically protected during one specific first-century tribulation (Revelation 3:10) while the literal first-century local church congregation in the city of Smyrna in the Roman province of "Asia" wasn't physically protected during that one specific first-century tribulation (Revelation 2:10).

After the second stage of the future tribulation is over, the 144,000 male virgins will be caught up as the "man child" to the throne of God in heaven (Revelation 12:5, Revelation 14:4-5, KJV), right before the third stage of the tribulation, the 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the beast), begins (Revelation 12:5-6, Revelation 13:5-8). This 3.5-year time period is shown from four different angles in Revelation chapters 11-14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5b, Revelation 14:9-11).

The 144,000 male-virgins part of the church (Revelation 14:4) will remain up in heaven before God's throne (Revelation 14:5, KJV) during the 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 14:9-11, Revelation 13:5-8) while two other parts of the church will still be on the earth: the figurative "woman" who represents all those in the church who will flee into places in the wilderness and be physically protected (Revelation 12:6,14), and the remnant of the woman's seed (Revelation 12:17) who will be all those in the church who will remain in the cities and not be physically protected (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13).

After the 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist is declared legally over at the sounding of the seventh trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the seven plagues of the seven vials of God's wrath will come out of the heavenly temple opening of the seventh trumpet (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5-16:1). These seven vials will be the fourth and final stage of the tribulation (Revelation 16). Because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of the vials of God's wrath will be directed at any of those in the church who will still be alive on the earth during that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they'll go into protective chambers which they'll have built for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had built for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:7).

So some in the church will survive the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18 while remaining on the earth. They are those who will be "alive and remain" on the earth at the second coming to be raptured (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27) of Revelation chapters 6-18. These survivors will have experienced God's miraculous physical protection (Psalms 91) throughout the entire tribulation, without having to have been part of the 144,000.

 

[allhart]

Johova Witness anybody?

 

[cf4rc]

Hey my friend......all I can say is that in my humble opinion......I hope we aren't here in the tribulation time. For evil will be running ramped. Right now I believe we are going to see the separation of the shaft and the wheat. The people that prefer God's way of life and those that live it out, out of conviction. All in all we better be on the guard and stand close to God. For if we don't decide before the fact we will land wherever we fall. Are we willing to die for God? Love ya brother thanks for all your time and information.

Very well said my brother......
Peace to you...

I freely admit that not being here during that time sounds pretty good "to me too". I understand that what you say here is definately a possibility. I could be wrong in what I believe, that's for sure!
And, I know this: if the pre-trib rapture is true I will not be judged to be 'left behind' but will still 'be taken' along with all those in Christ. Fore He will take all His body of believers with Him in the rapture, no matter what.

I just do not see this as what God Said is His desire and Will to be done with us at this time of tribulation now and the great tribulation to soon come.

I have touched on this in a previous post but I want to stress this very important point once again.

This is about fellow believers in Christ who are my brothers and sisters in the faith. They alone are my concern on this subject because if what they believe is wrong it can be deadly to their souls! This is the main reason I started this thread in the first place. This is not about the unbelievers.

To be told not to look for the Antichrist, to look only for Christ to 'rapture' us out of here, will cause us to "never" recognize him for who he is no matter when it is that he comes if we are still waiting to be 'raptured'. This doctrine teaches that we MUST be gone before he shows up on the scene!

What happens if he comes while we are waiting to be 'raptured' when we may never be 'raptured' at all?
We could fall for his lies and deceptions, possibly support him or even love and adore him, which will condemn us to the lake of fire as clearly told to us in Revelation 14:9-11. We Christians, as well as all other people, must not take "his mark" in "the mind" which is "in the forehead" or "in the hand" which is to support him, work for him and bring others to him. And, I assure you, this is not some stamp of 666 on our forehead. To me, it is ridiculous and unbelievable that anyone could be foolish enough to believe that.

Satan and Antichrist are much to smart to do something as blatant and silly as that! Antichrist will use stealth and lies to deceive. Which is the only way, other than a pre-trib rapture belief, that Christians can be misled enough to make such a huge mistake. We would immediately know who he is if he started having 666 slapped on our head. Right?

In congregations all over America and the world there are good God loving saved people that would not recognize him if he was here right now, even having the Word of God telling us what to watch for, because we have not been 'raptured yet'...there are many that will not even know when they are commiting a mistake that will condemn them!

This assured condemnation is clearly seen in Revelation 14:9-11 as I have shown in a previous post. This is "a salvation issue" for whoever takes his mark!

Remember, there has been "spiritual warfare" over our souls between good and evil, between God and the devil, since the beginning unto this time. And, Ephesians 6:10-20 and Revelation chapters 12 and 13 explain this very well don't they?

Once again, this is my concern! It is for my brothers and sisters who have chosen to believe in the Pre-tribulation Rapture Doctrine and want to be 'taken' first rather than be 'left behind' to wait for Christ at His only second and final return to earth. Trust God! DO NOT FEAR!

Yes, I am willing and ready and we should all be willing to die for God! If not then we have a major problem ahead of us! For God knows us by what is in our hearts!

Ha...guess that is quite enough said from me for now...

peace and love to all...God Bless

 

[zeke37]

GREAT POST! No matter how simple you explain it, no matter how clearly the bible speaks about it, there are those who for the life of me, I can't understand, would rather set aside the plain and easy to understand passages and all the prophetic scripture about the second coming, and build a whole new second coming doctrine using vague and obscure passages, parables, and verses out of complete context. I just can't figure it out.

10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.





even though many of us here try real hard,

some believers have simply been blinded by God to the truth,
and nothing we can ever say will change that...

 

[zeke37]

Hi again Zeke,

The 144,000 are Jews.

hi again....I guess we shall butt heads on this issue...


no they are not...Jews=Judah...
the Jews are but 1 tribe of 12, and 1 house of 2.

you are effectively leaving out at least 10 other tribes when you say that Jews are Israel.

Jews are PART of Israel,
and there are a bunch of Christian Jews even today...

but Jews do not equate to Israel.

Israel is scattered abroad.

1James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.



we know that, of the 144000, the 12000 Judah-ians and the 12000 Benjamin-ites
will be Messianic for sure...whether they are called Jew today or not.



the other 10 tribes of Israel are NOT known as Jews today.

as my post said, this is a very important biblical truth that goes a long way to helping understand end time prophesy...

IOW, the prophesy's that some presume are about the currently non believing Jews,
are really about us who believe.



the 144000 were sealed before the 4 winds blow (Rev7)
so they are not Jewish converts....
and they are Christians because of Rev14, they follow the Lamb
and are gathered to Him as the ONLY redeemable folks on earth...

The time of Jacobs trouble is about the Jew and the nation of Israel.

Jacob was NOT a Jew.
Jacob's name was changed to Israel-
Jacob had 12 children, 1 named for EACH tribe.
Judah (Jews) are ONE of the twelve.

look into it

 

[Choose Wisely]

Jacob was NOT a Jew.
Jacob's name was changed to Israel-
Jacob had 12 children, 1 named for EACH tribe.
Judah (Jews) are ONE of the twelve.

look into it

Good morning to you Zeke.

Ok, we won't call them Jews.

The 144,000 are from the 12 tribes of Israel. They are not gentiles. The Bible is pretty specific about who these 144,000 are.

 

[interpreter]

Good OP. As in the days of Noah and Lot, the bad guys will be taken and the good guys left. I pray that I am one of those "left behind."

 

[Mike214]

It will be no such pre tribulation. If you read carefully in the parable of the ten virgins and in the other instances mentioned before, the amount of persons taken is equal to the amount of persons left.
This is a clear indication that instead referring to different persons, Jesus makes allusion of the spiritual and physical qualities of the same persons. In other words, our physical bodies will be the only ones left behind.
1 Cor 5:5 "To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the lord Jesus."