Do we want to 'be taken' or 'left behind'?

[cf4rc]

Peace to you all...

Hmmmm...As I might have expected..."off the top of my head" on the 144,000 was not adequate by any means.
That proves that I, and we, should not just use opinion with no real substance to it as part of our posts...it may make one look foolish.

Thank you all for giving me some enlightenment on the subject...as it looks like you will continue to do...as there seems to be a few different views on it...

peace and love...God Bless

 

[Bible2]

cf4rc said:

I assure you, this is not some stamp of 666 on our forehead.

Note that it could come to something like that, in that the mark of the beast (Revelation 13:16-17, Revelation 16:2) could be a physical mark which will be placed on people via ritual scarification. For in the Bible the original Greek word used to refer to the "mark" of the beast can refer to a scratch or etching, and scarification is the scratching or etching of the skin just deep enough to leave a permanent mark.

The mark will be the name of the man who is the Antichrist (the beast) "or" the gematrial number of his name (Revelation 13:17-18), meaning that the mark will be the Antichrist's name for some people and the gematrial number of his name for other people. The mark will be placed on the right hand (probably on the palm) "or" on the forehead (Revelation 13:16), meaning that it will be placed on the right hands of some people and on the foreheads of other people. The Antichrist may reserve the mark of his name for only a special class of his followers, such as a faux 144,000, who could also be the only ones to receive the mark on the forehead (as a counterfeit of Revelation 14:1), instead of on the right hand (Revelation 13:16).

Those who refuse to receive the mark of the beast won't be allowed to buy or sell anything (Revelation 13:17), and they'll be executed by being beheaded if they refuse to worship the Antichrist and his image (Revelation 13:15, Revelation 20:4). Christians must be willing to suffer this fate rather than agree to receive the mark of the beast or worship the Antichrist or his image, for those who agree to do those things (even if they're Christians) will suffer God's wrath in fire and brimstone forever (Revelation 14:9-13), while those Christians who refuse to do those things, even though they'll be beheaded, will subsequently be resurrected into immortality (along with the rest of the church) at Jesus Christ's second coming (Revelation 20:4-6, 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-58). And even before their resurrection, at the moment of the death of their bodies their still-conscious souls will be brought into the presence of Jesus himself in heaven (cf. 2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23, Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 23:43,46).

The institution of the mark of the beast (the Antichrist) will occur in the future in connection with the world being deceived, through the amazing miracles of the False Prophet of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), into worshipping Lucifer (the dragon, the devil) and the Antichrist (the beast) and an image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-18).

In their devotion to the Antichrist as God (Revelation 13:8, 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36), some people could gladly be willing to have his name engraved on their right palms, just as lovers in the past were sometimes known to engrave the initials of their loved ones on their palms. Other people could gladly be willing to have the Antichrist's name engraved on their foreheads, thinking (wrongly) that they're fulfilling the idea of Revelation 22:4, which refers to the future point in time when Jesus will have the name of God written on the foreheads of all obedient Christians (Revelation 3:12). The miracle-working False Prophet of the Antichrist (Revelation 19:20, Revelation 13:11-17), who will be the one to cause everyone to be marked with the mark of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:16), could even convince people that he (the False Prophet) is Jesus returned (but he won't say that he's Christ/God, for he and the Antichrist will deny that Jesus is Christ/God: 1 John 2:22).

Instead of having the name of the Antichrist engraved on their right hands or foreheads, some people will have the gematrial number of his name (Revelation 13:17-18) engraved on their right hands or foreheads. The gematrial number of the Antichrist's name is 666 (Revelation 13:17-18). But because some people could refuse to have this evil number engraved upon their bodies, in order to make a mark of 666 acceptable to all people, it could be disguised to look like something else in those cases where people request something other than "666". For example, it could be disguised in some cases to look like "777", "WWW", "VVV", "|| || ||", or "FFF". For the sixth letter of the ancient Hebrew alphabet represents the number 6, but it looks like a "7", and it's transliterated into English either as a "W" or a "V". Also, two thin vertical lines "||" represent the number 6 on many UPC codes. And the letter "F" also has a numerical value of 6, in English gematria.

Those assigned to have the mark placed on their foreheads could be those who will be an elite, illumined, cognoscenti class of Gnostic Luciferians who alone will have been given knowledge of the ultimate secrets of the Antichrist's Gnostic Luciferianism. The Antichrist will be both a Luciferian (Revelation 13:4) and a Gnostic, denying that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3), and forbidding marriage and the eating of meat (1 Timothy 4:1-3). The cream of his cognoscenti could be a faux 144,000, consisting of male virgins (as a counterfeit of Revelation 14:4) who have never eaten meat. If they receive the mark of the Antichrist's name on their foreheads, this will be as a counterfeit of YHWH's 144,000 in Revelation 14:1. But the Antichrist won't pretend that he's YHWH, just as he won't pretend that he's Christ. Instead, as a Gnostic he will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). And his Gnostic denial that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3) will disqualify him (under his mistaken Gnostic doctrine) from being the Christ.

Note that "anti"-Christ doesn't have to mean "instead of" Christ, in the sense of referring to a false Christ, but can refer to anyone who is "against" the true Christ, as in anyone who denies that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22) and denies that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3). The spirit of antichrist (1 John 4:3) has been working since the first century (2 Thessalonians 2:7), animating many human antichrists since that time (1 John 2:18, 2 John 1:7).

Because the Antichrist and his False Prophet (possibly masquerading as Jesus) will deny that Jesus himself is the Christ (1 John 2:22) and will deny that Christ himself is in the flesh (1 John 4:3), and because the Antichrist and his False Prophet will bring the world into the worship of Lucifer instead (Revelation 13:4), the Antichrist and his False Prophet could say that (the non-flesh) Lucifer is the Christ, that the "new name" of Christ (Revelation 3:12b) is "Lucifer Christ". For just as "Lucifer" (Isaiah 14:12) means "the morning star", so Christ is the morning star (Revelation 22:16b). Also, Christ identified himself with the serpent (John 3:14), and Lucifer (the devil) is the serpent (Revelation 12:9).

The truth is that Lucifer fell from his office of morning star (Isaiah 14:12) and became Satan (cf. Luke 10:18); Jesus the Christ has taken over the office of morning star (Revelation 22:16). And Jesus the Christ identified himself only with the brass serpent on the pole in Numbers 21:8-9 (John 3:14), which typified Jesus the Christ's crucifixion for our sins (John 19:16, Matthew 26:28).

Nonetheless, the Antichrist could falsely say that Lucifer is the Christ and the true and beneficent God of mankind, and that the False Prophet is the miracle-working prophet Jesus (John 3:2, Acts 3:22-24), returned to point the world to the true Christ/God. The Antichrist could falsely say that he (the Antichrist) is the human/divine "Son" of Lucifer, who must be be worshipped as God along with Lucifer (Revelation 13:4,8). This would be similar to how Biblical Christians now rightly worship the human/divine Jesus Christ (John 1:1,14) as God (the Son) along with God the Father (John 20:28, Hebrews 1:8).

 

[cf4rc]

It will be no such pre tribulation. If you read carefully in the parable of the ten virgins and in the other instances mentioned before, the amount of persons taken is equal to the amount of persons left.
This is a clear indication that instead referring to different persons, Jesus makes allusion of the spiritual and physical qualities of the same persons. In other words, our physical bodies will be the only ones left behind.
1 Cor 5:5 "To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the lord Jesus."

Mike214, I hope I have understood what you are saying here...
Either way this is what I have to say...
Peace to you...

We are a spirit born in a flesh body to live in this flesh age?

Our body can not have life, exist, without our spirit. Which means our body can not be left behind and still be alive.

It is just dead meat once the spirit is gone. And, will never be needed or used again for anything.

Our spirit can leave our physical body only at the death of the body or when our physical flesh body is 'changed' into our spiritual body at the second coming of our Lord and will therefore no longer exist anywhere, ever again.

peace and love...God Bless

 

[cf4rc]

Peace to you...

Ha, you get going like I do sometimes...oh, all right...most of the time...

Interesting analysis...

Some of it right...some wrong...some a little too much off the 'mark' to convince me...

A few to many if's and maybe's...but that can be a very good sign that you are still a humble person...looking for answers...not thinking you know it all...yet...still willing to listen and possibly learn as we all should be...

Antichrist does all things through lies and deception and stealth...nothing will be as it seems...he will do all as foretold but not in ways easily seen as so many expect.

I can see that you are a good man dedicated to the Lord and the study of His Word...
So, be a watchman...be aware of the subtle things that are happening all around you right now...that will make you wise to where we are in biblical prophecy of our time...

peace and love...God Bless

 

[zeke37]

Good morning to you Zeke.

Ok, we won't call them Jews.

The 144,000 are from the 12 tribes of Israel. They are not gentiles. The Bible is pretty specific about who these 144,000 are.

Israel was one nation of 12 tribes.
Those 12 tribes were split into 2 parts a long time ago....
basically north and south...2 kingdoms...

the 10 northern tribes kept the name Israel at the split...
the southern 2 tribes chose Judah for it's name, because it was much larger and more prominent than the other tribe of Benjamin.

God punished the 10 northern tribes (Israel) for their Idolatry,
and scatter them to the four winds, after their captivity under the Assyrian

God did the same to the southern kingdom of Judah,
after their captivity under the Babylonian
and scattered them too

many many years later, SOME/A FEW came back to settle in Judah.



getting back to the ones that were scattered, their descendants live on today,
and OT prophesy about the scattered, shows them to be Christians...

God will deliver Israel, through His faithful Christian descendants.


"we who believe in Christ" are Israel, whether by heritage or by choice.

Even some of the Egyptians believed and joined in with Israel at the freedom of their bondage (plagues)...
and were considered part of Israel.

Provision is made in the Word for an individual to choose to join Israel
as long as they followed the rules!

Israel in prophesy relates to the descendants of those scattered tribes, all around the world,
many of which / most of which do not even know their heritage

Judah in prophesy relates to the Jews.

Israel and Judah are even mentioned in the exact same prophesy
They are not one in the same.

 

[yedida]

wrong parable...

my original post in this thread, shows that taken or left,
depends on which parable we are speaking about

since the taken or left part (the OP's question) is in Mat24
and NOT talking about the 10 virgins,
it is inappropriate for you to use that parable in your explanation...
a fact that I already shared in this thread.

seriously...
the parables to use for understanding this,
follow the taken or left, in the scriptures...understand?

so look to Mat24 for the explanation....not to the 10 virgins.

again, wrong parable..

stick with the context...Mat24...
remember the OP

the "they" that were taken in Noah's flood, was not Noah and his family
that is how it will be in the end times...

read the scriptures...the answer is right there, as I have posted twice in this thread.

the They/Them are the ones on whom judgment fell...
they were taken in the flood.
Noah was not

depends on which angle you see the events from...

a rescue boat comes to rescue,
and everyone that does not get into the boat will be taken to death....by the flood....

only those left behind on the boat will not perish

note what the WORK is...
grinding at the Mill, a watchman, and someone working in the fields...
these are metaphors for working for the Lord

on the other hand, 5 of those virgins WENT/TAKEN to get oil at the last moment.
and 5 STAYED/WERE LEFT, they did not go and look for oil at the last moment.

instead, THEY STAYED and married the Groom when He came HERE

REMEMBER THAT THE 5 THAT WENT AWAY FOR OIL, MISSED THE WEDDING.
only the 5 that were LEFT married the Groom.

and we are...
what is simple, is that the Lord already explaining who the THEY were that were taken by the flood in Noah's day...

THEY who got taken, are the ones that Judgment falls on.

those who are left, were saved.

not...they came out of tribulation....their tribulation...
they died in the flesh and are now in heaven...

simple...the dead.

the dead part of the church that is considered first fruits,
just as the 144,000 alive on earth are considered first fruits

they are not any raptured group.

KJV-14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

you (or your translation) have added a "the" to "great tribulation".
these are simply the dead believers.

we have to stay because God said so.
Christ comes to gather us at the end...after....
so, that is good enough for me

well, to many, those parable are not meant to be understood...
hence the parable in the first place.

and since His Children are rather split on their opinions on what the LEFT BEHIND means,
i'd say that some of us are not hearing Him

lol...not.

look in Mat24...the THEY that got TAKEN in the flood of Noah'as day
same example is given to us...
Hey, Satan even has a flood that come out of his mouth in the end times.
no coincidence.

no kidding...no disappearance period.

since when is literal action a seal that is OPENED by CHRIST?
Aren't these the same seals as Daniel was told to close?
can you CLOSE a literal event?

info, not literal events.
the literal events are seen in the following chapters of Rev.

wrong parable...stay in context...
even so, the 5 that were LEFT, STAYED and MARRIED the Groom.
the 5 that went, missed the wedding.

and you just do not understand that Rev repeats itself over and over again...

we are here for it all...
the wrath of God is REALIZED later in Rev....

see Rev11 and Rev16
God's wrath follows the trib

but Satan's wrath, that is the trib. and we are here for it all.

yep! all this has to happen before Christ comes a gatherin'!

exactly...see there are some things we can agree on!

but lets not forget the context in which the OP was asked...
so I'll repeat again....and repeat my post to Choose Wisely,
which seems strait forward enough...

stay in context...
the context is, who is working for the Lord when He comes?
be edified!

Zeke....
Finally, someone else who sees that all of the troubles of that 7yr period are NOT the wrath of God, but the wrath of satan against God's man (permitted by God, yes, wrought by Him, no).
Then between the 6th and 7th seals, a removal (if there is going to be one), and then God's wrath. I believe that this Day of the Lord is tied into Yom Teruah, the Feast of Trumpets and culminates approximately 27 days later at the last day of Sukkot, Hoshanna Rabbah.
The Lord never promised we'd not see terrible times, He just promised His own would not see the wrath of God.

 

[yedida]

Peace to you...
Please consider this:

The church is not spoken directly to or mentioned again after the seven letters written to them (the churches of that time and what we compare to the churches of today) for a reason...it was no longer necessary!

First: All the book of Revelation is to be revealed to and for the church!
What God gave to Jesus Christ He in turn sent to John by His angel.

John wrote what the angel revealed to him for the church.
Revelation 1:1; *The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants (the churches then and now) things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John:

The following is revealed by Jesus Christ Himself to John the Revelator of the Book of Revelation.
Christ is telling John to send (reveal) all of what is to be spoken by Him to the churches (to them then and also for us now).

This is how He begins;
Revelation 1:11; *Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send [it] unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Then the letters to the individual churches begins with Revelation 2:1 with what was repeated six times and ends with the seventh time in
Revelation 3:22; *He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Second: Every word from Revelation 1:11 to Revelation 3:22 has been to, about and for the churches (then and now).

In these passages all that needs to be said to, about and for the churches in a direct way, talking to and mentioning them, has been accomplished...
Christ has finished giving them (and us) all the commendations, criticism, instruction and promises that He deems necessary.

Therefore, there is no reason at all for Him to repeat what has been said to them or to mention them again!

Third: Revelation 1:1 clearly explains to us now that the entire remaining book of Revelation is, without the church being mentioned again, about what He wants revealed for the church (us) to know.

Israel and the 12 tribes...12,000 per tribe x 12 = 144,000

Now,of this subject I will definately be speaking off the top of my head at this time as I have not given study to this subject...

But this is what "I think" may be true...
The Lord is going to use these 144,000 to be a witness of Him and are the chosen from Israel. They have lived a life of celebacy because they are "virgins" in respect to women and their commitment to God and are therefore probably of Priestly lineage.

But, I don't believe that God would use just those of Israel, including His "two witnesses" from Revelation chapter 11, to be His witnesses. They, I believe, are to be witnesses of Him in Israel only.

If I am correct, it only makes sense that God would want witnesses from all over the world helping lead people to salvation through Christ. Especially in these times which may be the last chance for many to hear, see and understand the Gospel of Christ which will unbind the chains of sin and redeem them to the forgiveness and grace of God the Father.

Each one of us, as here, might be "the one" person to say the "right thing" at the "right time" to influence a person for the "fist time" to see things differently and "make a choice" they have never been willing to do before.

I want to be here to continue obeying the command of Matthew 28:19-20 so that I may be pleasing to and love our God as He first loved us.

peace and love...God Bless

Shalom friend mine,
Let me interject here just a little thought.
As of right now, the only people who know for sure that they are of the descendants of Jacob are the Jews who came out of Judah and Benjamin (with some from the other 10 tribes that did not want to assimilate into the nations). Rev. distinctly states 12000 from each tribe and proceeds to name the tribes.
You said you think they will be in Israel, and that is possible but I think it is just as possible that they will be world wide, for the diaspora remains, at least for the 10 "lost tribes." These were the Israelites who chose not to return to Jerusalem after the Babylonian (or Assyrian?) exile. They made a decision for themselves to assimilate but those today who have descended from them never had the chance to make a choice. They don't know their heritage, and for right now, there is no way to find this out, but I'll bet God will be able to send His 144,000 to just the right places and then there shall be another "regathering" to Israel.
You think?

 

[cf4rc]

Hello Zeke37...and Hellooooo to Yedida my friend......Good to have you here!!!

Zeke37 is right on...except for...and you too Yedida...except for...

Peace to you both...

The Zeke37 except for is:
we are here for it all...
Amen...Agree...
the wrath of God is REALIZED later in Rev....
see Rev11 and Rev16
God's wrath follows the trib
Sort of Agree...
As you say,the wrath you speak of in Revelation 11:18 and 16:19 "follows the tribulation"...for this is speaking of the wrath of Christ, God the Son, on the nations at His return...seventh trumpet and seventh bowl...it ends all tribulation of that time.
Disagree...
The 'wrath of God the Father' , not that of the Son, is mentioned 5 times...Revelation 14:10,19; 15:1,7 and 16:1...and are all speaking of the Trumpet and Vile/Bowl Judgments of His wrath as revealed in His scroll that was sealed (shut up and closed up to us) with seven seals. All that God's scroll reveals, Seals and the judgments of the Trumpets and the Viles/Bowls, does not come after or at the end of tribulation but are shown to absolutely be a part of the trib.

Revelation 5:7; And He (the Lamb) came and took the book (scroll) out of the right hand of Him (God the Father) that sat upon the throne.

The Lamb opens the scroll to loose the Seals, first 42 months of tribulation, and also reveal the Trumpets and Viles/Bowls written within and on the backside of the scroll which are the second 42 months of Great Tribulation...that is shortened.

Rev. 5:1; *And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne (God the Father) a book (scroll) written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
Rev. 5:2; *And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book (G455; to open - from the root word G303; into the midst, in the midst, amidst, among - to reveal what is in the midst of the book/scroll to the readers of Revelation), and (G2532; and, also, even, indeed - Webster's Dictionary; in addition to; and also) to loose (G3089; to loose any person or thing tied or fastened; to unbind, release from bonds, set free) the seals thereof (so they may be revealed, become active and be realized in that first 42 months).

What was shut up/closed up/sealed, in Daniel 12:4,9 until the time of the end, are now loosed by the Lamb in Revelation to give us knowledge and wisdom in these end days of the first 42 months of tribulation...revealed by the Seals...that we will not be deceived!

but Satan's wrath, that is the trib. and we are here for it all.
True, but only to a certain extent...
Satan's wrath comes when we are still here for it all as you said but it is only a part of Great Tribulation...which is the wrath of both Satan and God the Father here on earth at the same time...
The wrath of Satan, Rev.12:12, comes when he is cast out of heaven to the earth by Michael (an Arch Angel). This is also the beginning of God the Father's Wrath during the Great Tribulation seen in Revelation 14:6 to 16:16.

The Yedida except for is:
Finally, someone else who sees that all of the troubles of that 7yr period are NOT the wrath of God, but the wrath of satan against God's man (permitted by God, yes, wrought by Him, no).
Disagree...
Some of this is answered above...the wrath of Satan and God are both here during Great Tribulation...don't understand how someone can miss it.

Speaking of the 7 years:
There is no longer a seven year period as in Daniel 9:27...it is shortened in Matthew 24:22 and Mark 13:20; to 5 months in Revelation 9:5 and 9:10 and in Daniel 12:11-12 is stretched out from what was originally 1,260 days (shortened to 5 months, above) to 1,290 days (plus 30 days that equals 6 months) and 1,335 days (plus 45 days) that equals 71/2 months.

I have given this information before but I reckon, my dear friend, it just hasn't sunk in yet...maybe never will...huh...oh well, I sure wish you could see this...it is just so evident, to me, in these scriptures...

Hey, I respect your commitment to the Word and love ya anyway...and you know that is true...

Not many exceptions really.........out of all that was presented...
but, I believe these few are important ones...

peace and love to you both...God Bless

 

[cf4rc]

Shalom friend mine,
Let me interject here just a little thought.
As of right now, the only people who know for sure that they are of the descendants of Jacob are the Jews who came out of Judah and Benjamin (with some from the other 10 tribes that did not want to assimilate into the nations). Rev. distinctly states 12000 from each tribe and proceeds to name the tribes.
You said you think they will be in Israel, and that is possible but I think it is just as possible that they will be world wide, for the diaspora remains, at least for the 10 "lost tribes." These were the Israelites who chose not to return to Jerusalem after the Babylonian (or Assyrian?) exile. They made a decision for themselves to assimilate but those today who have descended from them never had the chance to make a choice. They don't know their heritage, and for right now, there is no way to find this out, but I'll bet God will be able to send His 144,000 to just the right places and then there shall be another "regathering" to Israel.
You think?

Peace to you...
You know much more about this than I do Yedida...so therefore I will trust you and readily accept your teaching at this time...I have heard what you are saying before...never studied it though...but I do believe us Gentiles are to be a part of this too...especially if one or more of the tribes of Israel spread across the Caucasus (sp) mountains to America as I have also heard but am not sure of...did they?
I added a post apologizing after my "off the top of my head" post and know much more than I did before thanks to you now and posts by others on this subject.

thanks...peace and love to you my friend...God Bless

 

[Choose Wisely]

.........

This eminent return doctrine does nothing more than make Christ himself a false prophet................

Eminent return................he could come at any time
Christ................................I will return when these events come to pass that I personally have foretold...........not to mention all of God's prophets who were inspired to foretell the same.

So what needs to happen before Christ can return?

 

[Almighty's humble servant]

So what needs to happen before Christ can return?

Let's see.....

The earth must be rocked as the bithpangs climax, preceding the depature from the faith, caused by the strong delusion that the revealed antichrist has all the answers to our problems following the cataclysmic events which I earlier touched upon. This is of course all followed by another series of cataclysmic events signaling us to furhter ourselves from this false deliverer, while crying out to the Lord for forgiveness and protection.

The for the sake of the elect, us, He shortens the time, returns, calls us up, and smotes the earth who has rejected Him.

Praise and exalt Him above all forever!

 

[Choose Wisely]

Let's see.....

The earth must be rocked as the bithpangs climax, preceding the depature from the faith, caused by the strong delusion that the revealed antichrist has all the answers to our problems following the cataclysmic events which I earlier touched upon. This is of course all followed by another series of cataclysmic events signaling us to furhter ourselves from this false deliverer, while crying out to the Lord for forgiveness and protection.

The for the sake of the elect, us, He shortens the time, returns, calls us up, and smotes the earth who has rejected Him.

Praise and exalt Him above all forever!

No, I meant what needs to happen before Christ comes in the clouds and catches up the believers that have made themselves ready.

 

[Truth Files]

Nothing

Pentecost has come and gone .... and a remnant part of Israel has returned to the land in position to experience the time of "Jacob's" trouble

Could happen before this day is over

Are you ready?

..... and when the "snatching" takes place .... the Lord's judgment will then fall, suddenly and with no warning [Revelation 3:10; Luke 21:35; Revelation 6:12-17]

 

[Super Kal]

you're going to be sorely disappointed when it doesn't happen.

for your own sake, be ready for it to not happen, because it's not going to happen when you say it will

certain things must happen before Christ returns

 

[B1inHim]

Exactly.

There are specific events that MUST take place before the "harpazo".

Not quite as many as some believe, but more, than many have come to believe.

KEY ingredient, being ready, no matter when, what and/or how.

By and in His Love,
Brother Jerry

YouTube - Lead me

 

[zeke37]

Hello Zeke37...and Hellooooo to Yedida my friend......Good to have you here!!!

Zeke37 is right on...except for...and you too Yedida...except for...

Peace to you both...

The Zeke37 except for is:
we are here for it all...
Amen...Agree...
the wrath of God is REALIZED later in Rev....
see Rev11 and Rev16
God's wrath follows the trib
Sort of Agree...
As you say,the wrath you speak of in Revelation 11:18 and 16:19 "follows the tribulation"...for this is speaking of the wrath of Christ, God the Son, on the nations at His return...seventh trumpet and seventh bowl...it ends all tribulation of that time.
Disagree...
The 'wrath of God the Father' , not that of the Son, is mentioned 5 times...Revelation 14:10,19; 15:1,7 and 16:1...

hi...
I view Jesus as God, and the wrath that HE brings happens all after the tribulation/Satan's wrath.

and are all speaking of the Trumpet and Vile/Bowl Judgments of His wrath

i disagree, as I do not view the trumpets as judgments or God's wrath.
I view it as Satan's wrath, and the hour of our temptation.

as revealed in His scroll that was sealed (shut up and closed up to us) with seven seals. All that God's scroll reveals, Seals and the judgments of the Trumpets and the Viles/Bowls, does not come after or at the end of tribulation but are shown to absolutely be a part of the trib.

i agree...the sealed info is info about the trib.
however the trib, or trumpets, is Satan's wrath, not God's judgments/wrath.
the vials are God's wrath...which IMO is the same as the wrath of the Lamb,
since the Lamb is the power of God

Revelation 5:7; And He (the Lamb) came and took the book (scroll) out of the right hand of Him (God the Father) that sat upon the throne.

symbolism...but i guess that is for another thread

The Lamb opens the scroll to loose the Seals, first 42 months of tribulation, and also reveal the Trumpets and Viles/Bowls written within and on the backside of the scroll which are the second 42 months of Great Tribulation...that is shortened.

again, i agree...
but the Lord's wrath (His Coming and the Vials) does not occur(begin)
until the last day of Satan's tribulation (trumpets)

Rev. 5:1; *And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne (God the Father) a book (scroll) written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
Rev. 5:2; *And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book (G455; to open - from the root word G303; into the midst, in the midst, amidst, among - to reveal what is in the midst of the book/scroll to the readers of Revelation), and (G2532; and, also, even, indeed - Webster's Dictionary; in addition to; and also) to loose (G3089; to loose any person or thing tied or fastened; to unbind, release from bonds, set free) the seals thereof (so they may be revealed, become active and be realized in that first 42 months).

What was shut up/closed up/sealed, in Daniel 12:4,9 until the time of the end, are now loosed by the Lamb in Revelation to give us knowledge and wisdom in these end days of the first 42 months of tribulation...revealed by the Seals...that we will not be deceived!

i agree....

but Satan's wrath, that is the trib. and we are here for it all.
True, but only to a certain extent...
Satan's wrath comes when we are still here for it all as you said but it is only a part of Great Tribulation...which is the wrath of both Satan and God the Father here on earth at the same time...

i disagree...God's wrath comes after Satan's wrath...

The wrath of Satan, Rev.12:12, comes when he is cast out of heaven to the earth by Michael (an Arch Angel). This is also the beginning of God the Father's Wrath during the Great Tribulation seen in Revelation 14:6 to 16:16.

i disagree...Rev14 and 16 are after the tribulation/Satan's wrath/trumpets

The Yedida except for is:
Finally, someone else who sees that all of the troubles of that 7yr period are NOT the wrath of God, but the wrath of satan against God's man (permitted by God, yes, wrought by Him, no).
Disagree...
Some of this is answered above...the wrath of Satan and God are both here during Great Tribulation...don't understand how someone can miss it.

it's funny, no offense but I was thinking along the same lines,
but of how one could think that the trumpets/Satan's wrath were God's wrath?

Speaking of the 7 years:
There is no longer a seven year period as in Daniel 9:27...it is shortened in Matthew 24:22 and Mark 13:20; to 5 months in Revelation 9:5 and 9:10 and in Daniel 12:11-12 is stretched out from what was originally 1,260 days (shortened to 5 months, above) to 1,290 days (plus 30 days that equals 6 months) and 1,335 days (plus 45 days) that equals 71/2 months.

I agree with the 5 months as the shortened time...
but not about the rest.
I have my own opinions about the other days in Daniel,
based off of a study in the Companion Bible's appendix'.

I have given this information before but I reckon, my dear friend, it just hasn't sunk in yet...maybe never will...huh...oh well, I sure wish you could see this...it is just so evident, to me, in these scriptures...

Hey, I respect your commitment to the Word and love ya anyway...and you know that is true...

Not many exceptions really.........out of all that was presented...
but, I believe these few are important ones...

peace and love to you both...God Bless

time will tell i guess...
the point is that the trib is Satan's wrath, and we are appointed to go right through that wrath....
God's wrath is another story all together, and it begins as Satan's ends.

 

[cf4rc]

So what needs to happen before Christ can return?

Hi Choose Wisely...
Peace to you...
Let's see if this makes sense to you or drives you to drinkin' in your hotrod Lincoln...hahaha...tryin' to be funny...and probably not to good at it...

A quick glance at what I believe has been done already:
1. Jews must be gathered back to their land from among the nations...
Israel became a nation again after around 2,500 years; May 14th,1948.
2. 'The parable of the fig tree' in Matthew 24:32-35
a. The generation of the fig tree must be present and active which
it is...70 year generation born from 1948 thru 2018.
3. The seals on the scroll of God must be revealed and active...and I
believe, as shown in a recent post, they are now in progress.
4. The 4 horsemen of Revelation chapter 6 must be present...and I believe
they are here and active on earth now.
5. The Antichrist, the first horseman on the white horse, must be in a very
powerful position and looked upon by many as the one leader able to
bring peace and safety to the world...which I believe is done but I can
not get into it right now for fear of being suspended from CF.
6. I believe the first half, or 42 months, of tribulation has begun.
7. A covenant must be confirmed between Antichrist and Israel...and I
believe it is already done but can not show why for the same reason as
in #5.
But, I can say this: Daniel 9:27 does not mean a signed 7 year peace
treaty between Israel and the Palestinians or the Arab nations brokered
by the Antichrist as taught by many leaders in our churches of today.
He does not need to do this but rather just 'confirm' a previous
'covenant' already made with Israel.

What still must happen:
1. A Socialist One World Order/Government must be sanctioned and come
to power.
2. The Antichrist, or a clone, must receive a 'mortal' head wound that will
be miraculously healed after he has been pronounced dead.
I believe this may have already happened by a symbolic mortal wound.
3. The Jewish tabernacle in Jerusalem, or a semile of, must be rebuilt.
4. Blood sacrifice must be allowed in the temple/tabernacle.
5. The Antichrist must break the covenant with Israel.
6. The Antichrist or his image, maybe a clone, while in the temple, must
demand to be worshiped as God.
7. The 'False Prophet' will have arrived on the scene to perform miracles
before the eyes of the whole world while in the presense of the man
beast...Antichrist...and demand that all people take his 'mark'.
8. The devil will be cast out of heaven to the earth with great wrath for
a short time and be the real power behind the Antichrist and the False
Prophet during the Great Tribulation.
9. Great Tribulation / the Trumpets and the Bowls of the Wrath of God and
the wrath of Satan begins on earth.
10. God's Two Witnesses will prophesy during this time.
11. World War, most likely nuclear, will erupt but will not be world wide.
But, most every nation in the world will be involved in one way or the
other. As we even see now, they will be aligned together just as the
Bible foretold.
12. Nations of the world will gather their armies to a place in Israel for the
great battle called Armageddon
13. The Two Witnesses will be killed and left where they are for 3 1/2
days and then be told to 'come up here' and be resurrected and it will
be witnessed by the whole world.
14. Within one hour of their resurrection our Lord will return and do His
Mighty Works as foretold.

This is a synopsis and probably somewhat inaccurate as I posted most of this information from my memory of what I have learned during my studies of the biblical end time prophecies.

I am sure I will have some of you come at me pretty hard now... especially with the unanswered questions...enjoy yourself friends...that's part of what we are here for...right?

peace and love to all...God Bless

 

[cf4rc]

time will tell i guess...
__________________
we just plant the seed, God grows It.

Isn't that the truth...

Isn't it somthin' that two men of God...along with all the multitudes of others...can see things so differently...when we have received the exact same knowledge and wisdom from the Holy Spirit...for He never lies cause He can't tell a lie, and therefore will tell each and every one of us the exact same thing...so, that can't be the problem...

It is the discernment of the Word as we so diligently study and search for the truth of what "God Said" that can go in so many different directions that it is shocking at times...huh?...and boy, can we do some mighty different discerning...as is so obvious to all right now.

This post between us has just hit me hard...made me realize neither one of us will change our opinions no matter what we say to each other...so what are we doing???...besides posting what will most likely never become 'fruitful' to anyone. We just agree or disagree...yippie yi ki yay...is that all there is to it?

Hey, you and I and most others here are gonna be fine...we are saved no matter what having repented and come to Christ as long as we do not fall away of our own volition or are deceived by Antichrist in these end times.

This 'ole country boy is contemplating on gettin' outta here...as I was just doing recently...to go out on the streets with our little 20' Terry God mobile and make it simple...forget all this technical stuff...and be a witness for Christ and the necessity of all to come to the Father and the Holy Spirit and salvation through Him. To witness to those who are not 'witnesses' themselves so our own prejudices don't get in our own way.

Imagine us trying to spread the Word together Zeke...what a disaster that would probably be...and that is sooooo bad and sooooo sad...but the truth!

Hey Zeke, I am sure you are a good man......thanks for 'listening' brother...
Enjoy...peace and love to you and yours...God Bless

 

[zeke37]

and to you....

 

[yedida]

I enjoy the study of olam haba, but I try to keep in mind that the only 20/20 vision of anything is in hindsight. No matter how "wrong" one view may appear, as long as there is some foundation for it, it deserves viewing, so I tend to talk in terms of "more probable, more likely possible." The ONE thing all agree on and must hold to the death is the knowledge of WHOSE we are. We hang tight to that and less tightly to believing we are right, we will overcome whatever is in store - shock, amazement, puzzlement, disappointment even - but if we are sure of Who we belong to we can pick our chin up off the ground and keep on working towards the goal.
Very good discussion here, thank you each and every one of you.