Do sacraments save?

[MarkRohfrietsch]

and here we get to another crime of the RCC. Burning Anabaptists at the stake for "rebaptizing" when they were practicing believer's baptism since they found the RCC's "baptism" unbiblical.

and.. there is biblical support of "rebaptism" if the first is felt to be invalid, and as far as I can remember, no scripture forbidding rebaptism, especially if the first wasn't really a baptism.

Acts 19


Basically, these people were baptized incorrectly, they didn't believe in Jesus, they hadn't really gotten John's teachings about Jesus coming after him. They were baptized for repentance of sin rather than hope in a savior. But their faith had to be in the savior.

However for my personal experience, not that I can remember. the church I was saved at did not have a baptismal. Maybe I got splashed with some water, I honestly don't remember, that was about 30 years ago.

Great argument. So are you implying that it is OK for Reformed Protestants to do the same to Lutherans and Catholics, buecause that type of persecution was one of the reasons my Ancestors fled to the USA, and then to Canada in the very late years of the 1700s?

Burning Anabaptists was wrong, but those are sins of men, just like the persecution of Catholics in England. Be careful who you blame for what; there are skeletons in everyone's closets.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Church tradition does not hold the same weight of authority as scripture and that's another mistake the RCC makes, one of the primary ones in fact.

You really do have an anti-Catholic bias; what about Lutherans, Anglicans, Orthodox; and everyone else that practices infant baptism? Not enough hate to go around for the rest of us. With all the evils in this world, Catholics are the least of your worries. LOL.

 

[PsaltiChrysostom]

You really do have an anti-Catholic bias; what about Lutherans, Anglicans, Orthodox; and everyone else that practices infant baptism? Not enough hate to go around for the rest of us. With all the evils in this world, Catholics are the least of your worries. LOL.

We're all just regarded as wanna be Catholics and Luther "didn't go far enough".

 

[Dan Perez]

I'd agree primarily but even if you take it to mean water baptism it's still supporting the Baptist definition of Baptism, which is full immersion believer's baptism, not sprinkling babies.

I figure if they're not going to be convinced that it's faith in Christ that saves but Baptism, they could at least follow the biblical pattern for Baptism which would get them saved in the process through belief at the start.

And was BAPTIZED and just got wet , and just where can you find the Greek word for IMMERSION ?

And just where di it begin in the bible ?

The only word I see in the OLD TESTAMENT is SPRINKING and in Hebrews 9:10 IS called WASHINGS / BAPTISMOS and in Mark 7:4 they WASHED their cups , pots , and beds , couches BEFORE they ate and Christ says that He will CLEAN by SPRINKING in Eze 36:25 .

dan p

 

[Jamdoc]

Yes. Salvation is not a one time even. Men often fall. God continues to save us.
Mt 24:13 “He who endures to the end will be saved”

really, a part of a verse without context, ..
context of that verse is the great tribulation, not normal everyday life

 

[Jamdoc]

Scripture is part of tradition.

Scripture is the Inspired Word of God. there's a reason why they chose out some books for the bible and not every early church writing.

The view that scripture is just "Church traditions that are written down" is one of the worst failures of the RCC.

 

[Jamdoc]

Oh no, I was just curious. Not debating with you or anything. Thanks for the feedback.

Well, it is a thing within the RCC that you can only be baptized once. I wasn't kidding that they used to kill Anabaptists for doing believer's baptism because it was "rebaptizing" something the RCC considers anathema, but in scripture there's nothing forbidding it I guess. But again it comes down to the view on baptism.. a ritual that saves, or a picture of Christ's burial and resurrection.

 

[Jamdoc]

This is not a thread for you to accuse the Catholic Church of crimes.

Why Were the Anabaptists Persecuted During the Counter-Reformation? | Anabaptist Faith

Why would a peace-loving people, who taught nonviolence, be persecuted? Why would the Dutch Anabaptist Dirk Willems be burned to death, after rescuing his enemy from drowning? Many Anabaptists, especially Anabaptist leaders, were drowned, beheaded, or burned at the stake. During the Reformation...

anabaptistfaith.org

okay I'll be fair, Lutherans burned them at the stake for "rebaptizing" too.

 

[Jamdoc]

Great argument. So are you implying that it is OK for Reformed Protestants to do the same to Lutherans and Catholics, buecause that type of persecution was one of the reasons my Ancestors fled to the USA, and then to Canada in the very late years of the 1700s?

Burning Anabaptists was wrong, but those are sins of men, just like the persecution of Catholics in England. Be careful who you blame for what; there are skeletons in everyone's closets.

No, it's not okay at all, no one professing Christ should be persecuting other Christians who are just trying to obey the Word of God, and they may disagree with interpretation. Doctrine should be debated, not killed over.

 

[Valletta]

No, it's not okay at all, no one professing Christ should be persecuting other Christians who are just trying to obey the Word of God, and they may disagree with interpretation. Doctrine should be debated, not killed over.

You are not responsible for any of your ancestors that may have killed Anabaptists or Catholics or anyone else. Please let's get back to debating doctrine. Just like with circumcision, baptizing does not mean you can't commit any more grave sins, we still fall and God continues to save us. David is an example, he gravely sinned and repented.

 

[Jamdoc]

You are not responsible for any of your ancestors that may have killed Anabaptists or Catholics or anyone else. Please let's get back to debating doctrine. Just like with circumcision, baptizing does not mean you can't commit any more grave sins, we still fall and God continues to save us. David is an example, he gravely sinned and repented.

Where we were getting that topic from, was I was asked if I was baptized more than once, which is a doctrine in the Catholic church, and I guess Lutherans as well, that they were willing to kill people over in the past. Not saying you or anyone else participated in it, but I am saying that that doctrine resulted in people being killed.. and it's not even in the bible.

 

[Valletta]

Where we were getting that topic from, was I was asked if I was baptized more than once, which is a doctrine in the Catholic church, and I guess Lutherans as well, that they were willing to kill people over in the past. Not saying you or anyone else participated in it, but I am saying that that doctrine resulted in people being killed.. and it's not even in the bible.

The Bible is a collection of various writings that the Catholic Church determined are the Word of God. Never was the Bible intended to contain all doctrine. Some things are spelled out clearly in the Bible and some are not, remember it was a "stretch" to find the age you think a person should be before being baptized. If you went by Bible alone, how would you know Baptisms are acceptable in North America, because there is no regulation stated, just examples. Thus with Bible only there could be a religion that does not accept Baptisms outside of the area covered by the Bible. Finally, people killed over all kinds of things in the name of religions.

 

[Jamdoc]

The Bible is a collection of various writings that the Catholic Church determined are the Word of God. Never was the Bible intended to contain all doctrine. Some things are spelled out clearly in the Bible and some are not, remember it was a "stretch" to find the age you think a person should be before being baptized. If you went by Bible alone, how would you know Baptisms are acceptable in North America, because there is no regulation stated, just examples. Thus with Bible only there could be a religion that does not accept Baptisms outside of the area covered by the Bible. Finally, people killed over all kinds of things in the name of religions.

and if there had been more doctrine that was actually revealed by God it'd have been added as scripture. not just a tradition of men. Jesus railed against the Pharisees because they went beyond what God had revealed and had their own traditions that they held as high as what was revealed by God.

 

[ViaCrucis]

so why are all my family members not only non believers, but hold Jesus in contempt? They were baptized and raised Catholic.

Christians, tragically, sometimes fall away. Scripture routinely warns us of this danger, and is why we are called to abide in Christ and to hold firm to the faith.

Those warnings and instructions aren't there just to take up space.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Jamdoc]

Christians, tragically, sometimes fall away. Scripture routinely warns us of this danger, and is why we are called to abide in Christ and to hold firm to the faith.

Those warnings and instructions aren't there just to take up space.

-CryptoLutheran

and here we come to one of the failings of that theology. In a system where salvation can be gained or lost based on performance, nobody has any assurance. Salvation is a free gift, and it is based on the work of Jesus Christ, not you or me. If we were to be judged on our performance we'd all fail. Every single one of us.

That said I'm not OSAS in the context of say a sinner's prayer and then you're saved forever even if you stop believing.
But I also don't believe that what cannot be gained through moral perfection cannot be lost due to moral imperfection.

So both the idea of OSAS after saying a sinner's prayer and the idea of people losing salvation and having to get re-saved over and over based on their failing performance are rather ludicrous.

Rather I believe much simpler than that. it's not DID you believe on Christ but DO you believe on Christ.
If you lose faith and stop believing.. well. that's not saved. Then the theology is whether they were ever saved in the first place. John writes that they weren't, but Paul writes that people will go apostate, leaving the faith, meaning they had to have it at one point.. and Jesus also gives it in the parable of the sower, the seed on the stony ground that doesn't take root, and withers from persecution, and the seed that grew in thorny vines and got choked up by the cares of this world.
So Jesus and Paul seem to agree that one can walk away from the faith while John seems to disagree?

anyway I think we'd both agree that faith has to be maintained, and that someone who is baptized as a baby but then goes apostate ... not saved.

 

[RileyG]

Scripture is the Inspired Word of God. there's a reason why they chose out some books for the bible and not every early church writing.

The view that scripture is just "Church traditions that are written down" is one of the worst failures of the RCC.

How so? The Canon of Scripture was decided at certain Church councils, but that's for a different topic.

 

[RileyG]

Well, it is a thing within the RCC that you can only be baptized once. I wasn't kidding that they used to kill Anabaptists for doing believer's baptism because it was "rebaptizing" something the RCC considers anathema, but in scripture there's nothing forbidding it I guess. But again it comes down to the view on baptism.. a ritual that saves, or a picture of Christ's burial and resurrection.

Re-baptism is considered anathema in most Christian traditions regardless, not just the RCC.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

We're all just regarded as wanna be Catholics and Luther "didn't go far enough".

More like "Catholics call them protestants so they are the same as we are". LOL I just shake my head at the profound ignorance of some Christians' to other Christians around them. Even more frustrating is entrenched ignorance that simply refuses to understand. Christian Narcissism (is that a term).

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

No, it's not okay at all, no one professing Christ should be persecuting other Christians who are just trying to obey the Word of God, and they may disagree with interpretation. Doctrine should be debated, not killed over.

Well then, stop calling out Catholics for their atrocities when Protestantism has plenty of their own to go around. See my point??

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Re-baptism is considered anathema in most Christian traditions regardless, not just the RCC.

You are correct; in our Lutheran Tradition there are records of Pastor's who were excommunicated for knowingly rebaptizing people. Our synod still has a strict prohibition to rebaptizing.