Do sacraments save?

[Xeno.of.athens]

Infant baptism is not at all biblical.. The households were preached to first they believed THEN they were baptized.

I can see that's your story and you will stick to it.

 

[Jamdoc]

I can see that's your story and you will stick to it.

yes, because Acts 8 and Acts 10 have believing as a prerequisite.

 

[Valletta]

but in those passages of acts, whole households were preached to and they believed first.
Acts 8 has the thing that would have hindered the Eunuch from being baptized was belief in Jesus. Acts 10 the rationale for baptizing the gentiles was that they had the Holy Spirit after being preached the Word of God (they believed). There isn't biblical support for baptism in unbelief. There's only support for people believing and getting baptized. even in John the Baptists' day his message was that the Kingdom of Heaven was at hand, and he preached that Jesus was coming soon. People believed, and they were baptized.

That is still how we still Baptize in the Catholic Church for non-baptized adults, a person believes and then that person is baptized. However, there is no Biblical support for your idea that the faith of the parents no longer should be sufficient for infants as it was with circumcision. Jesus came to FULFILL what was before, not to now deny infants into His Church. Why link circumcision to Baptism if one accepts infants on the faith of the parents and the other supposedly does not? If so why not state in Holy Scripture that Baptism is strictly for those over a specified age at the time when it is explained that Baptism replaces circumcision?

 

[bbbbbbb]

It is entirely possible for an unbaptized infant to be considered to be a Christian by the Catholic Church. It is one of the applications of the doctrine of baptism by desire.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

You didn't believe when you were "baptized" so, no.
People get baptized as a baby in the Catholic Church and then go apostate.
That's not salvation
that's not being born again.

I can not remember a time when I did not believe. Even preschool age, I was filled with awe when with my parents; we always prayed, we still do. Yes, I believe that it was the beginning of my faith. The support I got from my family kept/keeps me in that faith.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Infant "baptism" is not biblical, believer's baptism is.
Sprinkling is not biblical, immersion is.

Sinners baptism is more biblical. Denying grace from someone who needs it is not biblical at all.

 

[Jamdoc]

That is still how we still Baptize in the Catholic Church for non-baptized adults, a person believes and then that person is baptized. However, there is no Biblical support for your idea that the faith of the parents no longer should be sufficient for infants as it was with circumcision. Jesus came to FULFILL what was before, not to now deny infants into His Church. Why link circumcision to Baptism if one accepts infants on the faith of the parents and the other supposedly does not? If so why not state in Holy Scripture that Baptism is strictly for those over a specified age at the time when it is explained that Baptism replaces circumcision?

You know I had to look up where Catholics think that Baptism is supposed to be a replacement for Circumcision to justify the infant baptism doctrine.. and uh.. you guys still don't have it right

Colossians 2

11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

again baptism being a picture of being buried and then rising from the dead like Christ, a symbol of doing it WITH Christ, so immersion, because sprinkling doesn't bury, and you can't rise from the dead through sprinkling... and through faith, infants don't have faith, they don't even understand the gospel. They won't even understand the difference between right and wrong and be able to comprehend sin until they're at least a toddler and grasp theory of mind.

 

[Jamdoc]

I can not remember a time when I did not believe. Even preschool age, I was filled with awe when with my parents; we always prayed, we still do. Yes, I believe that it was the beginning of my faith. The support I got from my family kept/keeps me in that faith.

Most of my family (well the generation before me) was baptized Catholic, and none of them have faith now, they all utterly reject and mock religion, especially the one they're most familiar with.
They have no love for Jesus whatsoever, in fact some members hold Him in utter contempt (my mom particularly because she's pro choice)

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Most of my family (well the generation before me) was baptized Catholic, and none of them have faith now, they all utterly reject and mock religion, especially the one they're most familiar with.
They have no love for Jesus whatsoever, in fact some members hold Him in utter contempt (my mom particularly because she's pro choice)

Sad indeed.

 

[Valletta]

You know I had to look up where Catholics think that Baptism is supposed to be a replacement for Circumcision to justify the infant baptism doctrine.. and uh.. you guys still don't have it right

Colossians 2


again baptism being a picture of being buried and then rising from the dead like Christ, a symbol of doing it WITH Christ, so immersion, because sprinkling doesn't bury, and you can't rise from the dead through sprinkling... and through faith, infants don't have faith, they don't even understand the gospel. They won't even understand the difference between right and wrong and be able to comprehend sin until they're at least a toddler and grasp theory of mind.

As it was with circumcision, where you became one of God's chosen ones, so it is for Baptism. Nowhere in the Bible is it stated that the faith of the parents is no longer recognized for Baptism.

Mt 28:19-20 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you

Your regulations break with the practices of the early Christians for Baptism:

Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism. And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have no living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whoever else can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.

Didache. The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles (translation Roberts-Donaldson).

Didache. The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles (translation Roberts-Donaldson). On Early Christian Writings.

www.earlychristianwritings.com

 

[Jamdoc]

Sad indeed.

Point being, Baptism does not save.

 

[Jamdoc]

As it was with circumcision, where you became one of God's chosen ones, so it is for Baptism. Nowhere in the Bible is it stated that the faith of the parents is no longer recognized for Baptism.

Mt 28:19-20 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you

Your regulations break with the practices of the early Christians for Baptism:

Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism. And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have no living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whoever else can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.

Didache. The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles (translation Roberts-Donaldson).

Didache. The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles (translation Roberts-Donaldson). On Early Christian Writings.

www.earlychristianwritings.com

order of operations.. make disciples, then baptize.

 

[Valletta]

order of operations.. make disciples, then baptize.

Yes, for adults, as the Catholic Church still does today, but beyond that it shows the importance of Baptism. Never were children excluded, we know whole households were baptized.

 

[Valletta]

Point being, Baptism does not save.

The Bible says it does.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Yes, for adults, as the Catholic Church still does today, but beyond that it shows the importance of Baptism. Never were children excluded, we know whole households were baptized.

Which, of course, must have included all slaves and servants who may have not had any inclination to change their religious beliefs.

 

[Jamdoc]

The Bible says it does.

so why are all my family members not only non believers, but hold Jesus in contempt? They were baptized and raised Catholic.

 

[FenderTL5]

order of operations..

Matters of faith are not mathematical equations.

 

[Dan Perez]

You know I had to look up where Catholics think that Baptism is supposed to be a replacement for Circumcision to justify the infant baptism doctrine.. and uh.. you guys still don't have it right

Colossians 2


again baptism being a picture of being buried and then rising from the dead like Christ, a symbol of doing it WITH Christ, so immersion, because sprinkling doesn't bury, and you can't rise from the dead through sprinkling... and through faith, infants don't have faith, they don't even understand the gospel. They won't even understand the difference between right and wrong and be able to comprehend sin until they're at least a toddler and grasp theory of mind.

This what COL 2:12 means , Having been BURIED together with Him in the BAPTISMA and the translation is wrong and just look at the Greek text and all will see it is NOT the Greek word BAPTISM / BAPTISMO .

Rom 6:4 says that the HOLY SPRIT / BAPRISMA places all into his death .

BAPTISMA is used 22 times from MATTHEW , through 1 PETER 3:21 and BAPTISMA is the HOLY SPIRIT and not WATER BAPTISM , PERIOD .

dan p

 

[RileyG]

so why are all my family members not only non believers, but hold Jesus in contempt? They were baptized and raised Catholic.

People can choose to reject their Baptismal promises at any time. The Catholic Church teaches that those who die in mortal (very serious/reject God) sin will not go to heaven.

 

[RileyG]

It is entirely possible for an unbaptized infant to be considered to be a Christian by the Catholic Church. It is one of the applications of the doctrine of baptism by desire.

Correct. Through Baptism God pours grace into the soul and washes away sin. It gives the person grace to believe. By sanctifying grace we are filled with the indwelling of the Holy Trinity. God dwells in us.