Do sacraments save?

[RileyG]

Because John 3:16, John 5:24, Acts 16:31, Romans 10:9, etc, etc, etc. If you make baptism a requirement you make Jesus, John, and Paul liars

What about Mark 16:16 or Acts 2:38?

 

[Jamdoc]

What about Mark 16:16 or Acts 2:38?

"but he who does not believe will be condemned", not he who is not baptized. All those scriptures that attach another condition to salvation, always involve faith, but there are verses that have faith alone, with no other strings attached. If salvation is purely by faith, then all those verses involving salvation are true.
But if Salvation is multi-step with multiple conditions and laws involved, then the simplest statements, like Acts 16:31 and John 3:16 become lies.

Acts 2:

36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

They believed before they were baptized. In no case does a baptism in unbelief save.
then the baptism came after.

The pattern always holds in the bible that they believe before they are baptized.
again
Acts 8

36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

There was a condition to even getting baptized, and it is belief.

 

[concretecamper]

The simplest scriptures on salvation boil it down to faith in Christ

finish the thought. Faith demands something. Search the scriptures to find out what faith demands.

 

[FenderTL5]

..there are verses that have faith alone..

There is precisely one verse that addresses "faith alone". It says we are not justified by faith alone.

You have seemingly reduced faith to be something that's all in your head, something you believe. Faith requires action.
Just as works are useless in and of themselves, a faith that's just in your head is a dead notion.

This topic is about the sacraments. The sacraments are acts of faith, obedience, following Christ. Baptism, the Eucahrist etc are actions that impart and are a product of the Grace of God. Grace is God's work, His energies that are to transform us into His likeness.
Ephesians 2 says, "It is by Grace through faith you* have been saved.." not by works nor by faith alone.

(*the faithful at Ephesus)

 

[Dan Perez]

What about Mark 16:16 or Acts 2:38?

I would like to see your thoughts on Mark 16:16 OR Acts 2 :38 and if you pick Acts 2:38 , I would like for you write why Jesus was WATER BAPTIZED , since he had no SIN ,

Check Gen 6:6 to see what Christ did REPENT OF !!

Then read Gen 6:7 and your thoughts ?

dan p

 

[Jamdoc]

finish the thought. Faith demands something. Search the scriptures to find out what faith demands.

you act on faith, but it is the faith itself that saves.

 

[Jamdoc]

There is precisely one verse that addresses "faith alone". It says we are not justified by faith alone.

You have seemingly reduced faith to be something that's all in your head, something you believe. Faith requires action.
Just as works are useless in and of themselves, a faith that's just in your head is a dead notion.

This topic is about the sacraments. The sacraments are acts of faith, obedience, following Christ. Baptism, the Eucahrist etc are actions that impart and are a product of the Grace of God. Grace is God's work, His energies that are to transform us into His likeness.
Ephesians 2 says, "It is by Grace through faith you* have been saved.." not by works nor by faith alone.

(*the faithful at Ephesus)

Apparently Acts 16:31, John 3:16, John 5:24, and Romans 4 and Romans 10:9 don't exist.

 

[RileyG]

I would like to see your thoughts on Mark 16:16 OR Acts 2 :38 and if you pick Acts 2:38 , I would like for you write why Jesus was WATER BAPTIZED , since he had no SIN ,

Check Gen 6:6 to see what Christ did REPENT OF !!

Then read Gen 6:7 and your thoughts ?

dan p

to fulfill all righteousness.

 

[ViaCrucis]

The simplest scriptures on salvation boil it down to faith in Christ.

And the Lutherans in this thread who are among those whom you've been debating believe that salvation is faith alone in Christ alone.

Telling a Lutheran that salvation is based in faith in Christ alone is like telling the Pope to be Catholic.

If you tack anything else on as necessary, it makes those other passages lies, for the passages that have other things tied to salvation, faith is involved in all of them. So the thing that saves is faith.

And this is the problem, you think baptism is a work being added to faith as necessary for salvation.

Which means you haven't been listening to a single thing anyone here has been saying.

That's the mental block you need to get past.

Otherwise you have a bible that contradicts itself, in some passages requiring faith alone, other passages tacking on baptism, others tacking on communion, others tacking on good works, etc, etc.

A good biblical hermeneutic addresses this. That's one of the many reasons why I'm a Lutheran.

Why do you think that the Sola Fide people--Lutherans--believe that baptism is salvific? Is it because Martin Luther and all the early Evangelical Reformers were dinguses sitting there with their fingers up their nose and blowing hot air?

Do you care to find out why? Are you willing to have some of your assumptions challenged?

If faith wasn't enough, then Jesus would have been lying to the "thief" on the cross next to Him.

That is what colors interpretation of other passages. That if more is required than faith, then Jesus is a liar, and there's no salvation in Him at all.

Nobody can force a horse to drink.

I've been on your side of the theological fence. So I know what it's like over there. Are you willing to see what it's like on this side of that fence? And learn why those of us who believe the way we do believe as we do?

I believe that I am justified by God's grace alone, on Christ's account alone, through faith alone. And God does all of this by Himself alone.

That's Lutheranism.

Do you think I believe that baptism is salvific because I believe in the insufficiency of faith? Because that's false.

Here's the river, do you want to sip? Do you want to see what it's like on this side of the fence?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Jamdoc]

And the Lutherans in this thread who are among those whom you've been debating believe that salvation is faith alone in Christ alone.

Telling a Lutheran that salvation is based in faith in Christ alone is like telling the Pope to be Catholic.



And this is the problem, you think baptism is a work being added to faith as necessary for salvation.

Which means you haven't been listening to a single thing anyone here has been saying.

That's the mental block you need to get past.



A good biblical hermeneutic addresses this. That's one of the many reasons why I'm a Lutheran.

Why do you think that the Sola Fide people--Lutherans--believe that baptism is salvific? Is it because Martin Luther and all the early Evangelical Reformers were dinguses sitting there with their fingers up their nose and blowing hot air?

Do you care to find out why? Are you willing to have some of your assumptions challenged?



Nobody can force a horse to drink.

I've been on your side of the theological fence. So I know what it's like over there. Are you willing to see what it's like on this side of that fence? And learn why those of us who believe the way we do believe as we do?

I believe that I am justified by God's grace alone, on Christ's account alone, through faith alone. And God does all of this by Himself alone.

That's Lutheranism.

Do you think I believe that baptism is salvific because I believe in the insufficiency of faith? Because that's false.

Here's the river, do you want to sip? Do you want to see what it's like on this side of the fence?

-CryptoLutheran

We've already been over this bridge.

You act as if these sacraments is the same as believing the gospel, where I've pointed out that the sacraments take effort to go out and do. Nobody's just baptizing you while you're minding your own business and you just passively accept it, you have to go to a church, you have to schedule it usually like they won't do baptisms every single day on a whim, and it's usually a thing of church membership, and communion is even more selective.

Meanwhile you really can be just minding your own business as an unbeliever and someone even some random person on the street will strike up a conversation with you about Jesus and try to hand you a tract, you don't even have to go out on the street. They will come to your front door and witness to you, total strangers. That is passive. that isn't a work.

But it's quite possible someone can go decades of believing in Christ but not being baptized or ever taking communion. They could be in a place where there are no churches or it's just a house church, they could be in prison and having been witnessed to in prison in some part of the world where they wouldn't allow prisoners to go to a church and act on their faith. They could be disabled and unable to physically be baptized (if they're a baptist or some other denomination that does immersion baptism)....

they could be nailed to a cross next to Jesus.
faith is sufficient, even without baptism, or communion.

 

[concretecamper]

you act on faith

but it is the faith itself that saves

you make the perfect argument against yourself.

You say you act on faith, said another way your actions driven by your faith and grace (my little addition) from God are needed too.

 

[FenderTL5]

..the thing that saves is faith.

That's not Biblical. James 2 says, "not so."

faith is sufficient

That's not Biblical either. Holy Scripture says Grace is sufficient but does not say the same of faith.

the sacraments take effort to go out and do.

It was Christ who gave the instruction to baptize and make disciples. It was Jesus who instituted the Eucharist. It was Jesus who said if you do not eat his flesh and drink His blood there's no life in you. It was Christ who said take up your cross and follow me.
All of which take effort to go out and do. Are you willing to contradict this?

 

[SeventhFisherofMen]

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