Do Sabbath Keepers KEEP the Sabbath?

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Well, are you or aren't you?

Its a simple question that should be simple to answer without having to employ such gymnastics.

19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Which one of these types of people Jesus is describing are you?

Maybe you believe there is a 3rd option?

It is a silly question and you don't even know why. Someone who even knows the least bit about the law would understand why...but you don't.

I will refresh your memory again:

YOU wrote: Are you keeping the Law of Moses even down to the very least of its 600+ commands (observing every jot and tittle of the Mosaic Law), and are you teaching others that they must keep all 600+ commands of the Mosaic Law?

 

[parousia70]

It is a silly question and you don't even know why. Someone who even knows the least bit about the law would understand why...but you don't.

I will refresh your memory again:

YOU wrote: Are you keeping the Law of Moses even down to the very least of its 600+ commands (observing every jot and tittle of the Mosaic Law), and are you teaching others that they must keep all 600+ commands of the Mosaic Law?

And if you do not keep and teach others to keep them, Jesus says you will be called least in the kingdom of heaven.
Simple.

So which one are you?

Why you seem to go to herculean lengths to avoid answering is fascinating.

Jesus walked righteously according to the Law and Prophets. So why are you stalling on Matt 5:17-19? I just want to get back to what Matthew 5:17-19 SAYS, but you are trying to get away from looking at the verse.

I'll state it in the positive: the passage of Matthew 5:17-19 says that not one jot nor tittle of the Law of Moses will pass UNTIL heavens/earth pass away and, THEREFORE, whoever breaks the very least of the commands in the Law of Moses and teaches others to do so will be the least in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Now, friend, Jesus said that until Heaven/earth passes the Law of Moses must be kept even to its very least commands.

Are you doing so or not?

Simple, wasn't it?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

And if you do not keep and teach others to keep them, Jesus says you will be called least in the kingdom of heaven.
Simple.

So which one are you?

Why you seem to go to herculean lengths to avoid answering is fascinating.

Jesus walked righteously according to the Law and Prophets. So why are you stalling on Matt 5:17-19? I just want to get back to what Matthew 5:17-19 SAYS, but you are trying to get away from looking at the verse.

I'll state it in the positive: the passage of Matthew 5:17-19 says that not one jot nor tittle of the Law of Moses will pass UNTIL heavens/earth pass away and, THEREFORE, whoever breaks the very least of the commands in the Law of Moses and teaches others to do so will be the least in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Now, friend, Jesus said that until Heaven/earth passes the Law of Moses must be kept even to its very least commands.

Are you doing so or not?

Simple, wasn't it?

Your question makes no sense because you do not understand the law nor scripture. If you would ask it correctly I would and could answer. Simple...

Again, here is the problem:
"Now, friend, Jesus said that until Heaven/earth passes the Law of Moses must be kept even to its very least commands. Are you doing so or not?"

YOU wrote:
"Are you keeping the Law of Moses even down to the very least of its 600+ commands (observing every jot and tittle of the Mosaic Law), and are you teaching others that they must keep all 600+ commands of the Mosaic Law?"

What is wrong here? You do not know...do you...

 

[parousia70]

Your question makes no sense because you do not understand the law nor scripture. If you would ask it correctly I would and could answer. Simple...

Again, here is the problem:
"Now, friend, Jesus said that until Heaven/earth passes the Law of Moses must be kept even to its very least commands. Are you doing so or not?"

YOU wrote:
"Are you keeping the Law of Moses even down to the very least of its 600+ commands (observing every jot and tittle of the Mosaic Law), and are you teaching others that they must keep all 600+ commands of the Mosaic Law?"

What is wrong here? You do not know...do you...

Being Passive/Aggressive isn't helping you.

At this point I'd have to say it's YOU who has demonstrated your lack of understanding of the Law and Scripture.

The only thing wrong I see is your unwillingness (or perhaps inability - I'm not sure which yet) to answer the question posed.

Would you care to say what you mean in a direct straightforward fashion?
Or is Cryptic-ism your MO not to be deviated from?

I've been direct and straightforward, even to the point of asserting Heaven and Earth HAVE passed, therefore this admonition has expired, on time, as prophesied.

How Am I wrong?
Please be as detailed and direct as you can, if that is even possible for you.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Being Passive/Aggressive isn't helping you.

At this point I'd have to say it's YOU who has demonstrated your lack of understanding of the Law and Scripture.

The only thing wrong I see is your unwillingness (or perhaps inability - I'm not sure which yet) to answer the question posed.

Would you care to say what you mean in a direct straightforward fashion?
Or is Cryptic-ism your MO not to be deviated from?

I've been direct and straightforward, even to the point of asserting Heaven and Earth HAVE passed, therefore this admonition has expired, on time, as prophesied.

How Am I wrong?
Please be as detailed and direct as you can, if that is even possible for you.

Not being passive/aggressive at all! Just pointing out that you have no idea what you are asking nor do you know anything about the law or you would not have even asked it. I have already pointed you to your failure but you are blind to the law so you can't see it. The question you posed IS the problem. I don't believe
1 + 1 = 4 so I can't answer your question.

 

[parousia70]

Not being passive/aggressive at all! Just pointing out that you have no idea what you are asking nor do you know anything about the law or you would not have even asked it. I have already pointed you to your failure but you are blind to the law so you can't see it. The question you posed IS the problem. I don't believe
1 + 1 = 4 so I can't answer your question.

That's Convenient.

Let's look at the CF Guidelines for such a situation:

• When you disagree, address the content of the post and not the poster. (oops... strike one already)
• When you disagree with someone's position, you should post evidence and supporting statements for your position. This policy, sometimes referred to as "X means Y because of Z", must be followed especially when posting claims that are widely considered to be controversial.

Statement of Purpose - Statement of Purpose

How about you post some evidence and supporting statements for your disagreement with me?
Show me HOW "my question is the problem", if you can.
Lets examine your position in the light of day, and test it against scripture to see if it is so, shall we?

I've done just that. I have offered up statements, scripture and evidence to support my position. You have offered up, in contrast, well, nothing. Even beyond supporting your own position, you have shown us NOTHING from scripture or otherwise, that demonstrates for our readers HOW my position is incorrect, as you claim.

I've even given you the benefit of the doubt, allowing for your potential disagreement with the premise of my question, by asking if there is a 3rd option I am unaware of, and if so, hoping you might elaborate upon it for our readers...

At this point, after my multiple attempts to get you to offer up ANYTHING, anything at all, to support your disagreement, I can only assume that is because you have nothing TO offer in support of your disagreement with me.

Am I wrong?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

That's Convenient.

How about you post some evidence and supporting statements for your disagreement with me?
Show me HOW "my question is the problem", if you can.
Lets examine your position in the light of day, and test it against scripture to see if it is so, shall we?

I've done just that. I have offered up statements, scripture and evidence to support my position. You have offered up, in contrast, well, nothing. Even beyond supporting your own position, you have shown us NOTHING from scripture or otherwise, that demonstrates for our readers HOW my position is incorrect, as you claim.

I've even given you the benefit of the doubt, allowing for your potential disagreement with the premise of my question, by asking if there is a 3rd option I am unaware of, and if so, hoping you might elaborate upon it for our readers...

At this point, after my multiple attempts to get you to offer up ANYTHING, anything at all, to support your disagreement, I can only assume that is because you have nothing TO offer in support of your disagreement with me.

Am I wrong?

It is not convenient, it is fact. I can't answer because you are asking me if I believe and teach that 1 + 1 = 4. Your question makes no sense because 1 + 1 = 2. I can not have a conversation with someone regarding math if they clearly do not understand simple mathematics. You clearly do not understand the law nor scriptures relating to it.

Again, here is the problem:
"Now, friend, Jesus said that until Heaven/earth passes the Law of Moses must be kept even to its very least commands. Are you doing so or not?"

YOU also wrote:
"Are you keeping the Law of Moses even down to the very least of its 600+ commands (observing every jot and tittle of the Mosaic Law), and are you teaching others that they must keep all 600+ commands of the Mosaic Law?"

What is wrong here? You do not know...do you...

 

[claninja]

Your question makes no sense because you do not understand the law nor scripture. If you would ask it correctly I would and could answer.

As an audience member reading between you and parousia's dialogue, parousia's question makes sense and is pretty straight forward.

Jesus clearly states that anyone who teaches or breaks the least of the commandments of the law, will be least in the kingdom of heaven. Jesus' statement is pretty straight forward. So do you or do you not follow, and do you or do you not teach others, all 600 some laws of the Law of Moses?

Matthew 5:19 So then, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do likewise will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever practices and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven

It is not convenient, it is fact. I can't answer because you are asking me if I believe and teach that 1 + 1 = 4. Your question makes no sense because 1 + 1 = 2. I can not have a conversation with someone regarding math if they clearly do not understand simple mathematics. You clearly do not understand the law nor scriptures relating to it.

However, you appear to avoid answering the question and even provide vague reasons such as 1+1 does not equal 4. I'm not even sure how that relates to Parousia's question, so maybe you could be specific on how parousia is wrong so that the audience can see a possiblly effective argument against parousia, in order for them to draw their own conclusions.

Again, here is the problem:
"Now, friend, Jesus said that until Heaven/earth passes the Law of Moses must be kept even to its very least commands. Are you doing so or not?"

ok so you address Parousia's interpretation by providing scripture to show that "heaven and earth must pass away" prior to the law passing away. This doesn't really help address how you interpret Jesus in matthew 5:17-19. Parousia gives a straight forward answer by stating he believes heaven and earth have passed away to support that we do not need to keep or teach all 600 some laws of the old covenant.

You, on the other hand, don't appear to believe heaven and earth have passed away yet. Which means you don't believe the Law has passed away yet? which means you believe in following and teaching all 600 some laws today, correct?

 

[parousia70]

What is wrong here? You do not know...do you...

No I don't.
Now, For the love of all things Holy, Please enlighten me to what you believe is wrong here.

I'm eager to test your view against scripture and see if it is so.

Hopefully you will give us that option, because right now, nobody knows what your view even is.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

As an audience member reading between you and parousia's dialogue, parousia's question makes sense and is pretty straight forward.

Jesus clearly states that anyone who teaches or breaks the least of the commandments of the law, will be least in the kingdom of heaven. Jesus' statement is pretty straight forward. So do you or do you not follow, and do you or do you not teach others, all 600 some laws of the Law of Moses?

ok so you address Parousia's interpretation by providing scripture to show that "heaven and earth must pass away" prior to the law passing away. This doesn't really help address how you interpret Jesus in matthew 5:17-19. Parousia gives a straight forward answer by stating he believes heaven and earth have passed away to support that we do not need to keep or teach all 600 some laws of the old covenant.

You, on the other hand, don't appear to believe heaven and earth have passed away yet. Which means you don't believe the Law has passed away yet? which means you believe in following and teaching all 600 some laws today, correct?

You also, by what you have written, do not understand it and are making the same mistake as Parousia. As you have written it, my answer to both of you is no. No one can. BUT, what Yeshua said is still true...

You wrote:
Jesus clearly states that anyone who teaches or breaks the least of the commandments of the law, will be least in the kingdom of heaven. Jesus' statement is pretty straight forward. So do you or do you not follow, and do you or do you not teach others, all 600 some laws of the Law of Moses?

Do you see the problem????

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

No I don't.
Now, For the love of all things Holy, Please enlighten me to what you believe is wrong here.

I'm eager to test your view against scripture and see if it is so.

Hopefully you will give us that option, because right now, nobody knows what your view even is.

It is not "my view". It is reality. There is nothing to test. This reality you know nothing of because you keep saying and asking the same thing, which is not reality. You are not interested in truth nor enlightenment, only testing like the Pharisees.

Again, here is the problem:
"Now, friend, Jesus said that until Heaven/earth passes the Law of Moses must be kept even to its very least commands. Are you doing so or not?"

YOU wrote:
"Are you keeping the Law of Moses even down to the very least of its 600+ commands (observing every jot and tittle of the Mosaic Law), and are you teaching others that they must keep all 600+ commands of the Mosaic Law?"

 

[Saint Steven]

Were you a slave in Egypt?
Were you or your ancestors in the Exodus?

Deuteronomy 5:15
Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the Lord your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Were you a slave in Egypt?
Were you or your ancestors in the Exodus?

Deuteronomy 5:15
Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the Lord your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day.

Remember it every Pesakh and Shabbat.

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God

The Sabbath belongs to all members of Israel. The natural branches as well as those grafted in.

 

[parousia70]

Again, here is the problem:
"Now, friend, Jesus said that until Heaven/earth passes the Law of Moses must be kept even to its very least commands. Are you doing so or not?"

YOU wrote:
"Are you keeping the Law of Moses even down to the very least of its 600+ commands (observing every jot and tittle of the Mosaic Law), and are you teaching others that they must keep all 600+ commands of the Mosaic Law?"

Yes. I am correct. you are wrong.
Do you know why you are wrong?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Yes. I am correct. you are wrong.
Do you know why you are wrong?

Um, 1 + 1 = 2, it does not equal 4 like you are saying, so no, you are wrong...and I DO know why you are wrong but you only want to play games because you do not see your large error...

 

[parousia70]

Um, 1 + 1 = 2, it does not equal 4 like you are saying, so no, you are wrong...and I DO know why you are wrong but you only want to play games because you do not see your large error...

Rather, You are the one playing games and confronting me as a person, instead of addressing the content of my posts.

You have provided and grand total of ZERO pieces of evidence to support your view.. in fact you haven't eve stated WHAT your view even is...

1 +1 does in fact = 2
1) Jesus says until heaven and earth pass away not one Jot or tittle shall pass from the law
+
1) Jesus says that until heaven and earth pass anyone who breaks even the least of the Law's commands will be called Least in the kingdom
=
2) You, Yeshua HaDerekh, are demonstrably breaking hundreds of the commands of the Law, willfully, perhaps even arrogantly, and according to Jesus, (if Heaven and earth have not yet passed) will be called least in the kingdom for doing so.

Simple math.

Again, by an overwhelming avalanche of proof, I have shown unequivocally that I am correct, you are not.
I have demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt to any logical thinking person why I believe what I do, posting copious scripture in support.

You have done nothing to support a view you haven't even articulated at all.
You stand Soundly and concretely refuted.
Your view has been examined and found wanting.

And you don't even know why do you?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Rather, You are the one playing games and confronting me as a person, instead of addressing the content of my posts.

You have provided and grand total of ZERO pieces of evidence to support your view.. in fact you haven't eve stated WHAT your view even is...

1 +1 does in fact = 2
1) Jesus says until heaven and earth pass away not one Jot or tittle shall pass from the law
+
1) Jesus says that until heaven and earth pass anyone who breaks even the least of the Law's commands will be called Least in the kingdom
=
2) You, Yeshua HaDerekh, are demonstrably breaking hundreds of the commands of the Law, willfully, perhaps even arrogantly, and according to Jesus, (if Heaven and earth have not yet passed) will be called least in the kingdom for doing so.

Simple math.

Again, by an overwhelming avalanche of proof, I have shown unequivocally that I am correct, you are not.
I have demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt to any logical thinking person why I believe what I do, posting copious scripture in support.

You have done nothing to support a view you haven't even articulated at all.
You stand Soundly and concretely refuted.
Your view has been examined and found wanting.

And you don't even know why do you?

I addressed your posts, you just don't like my answers. What Yeshua said IS true, what you said IS NOT. That is the problem. So no, you are NOT correct. You have proven you know nothing regarding what Yeshua said nor anything about the law. You again made a major mistake in your #2. And no, your math is wrong again. Yes, #1 is correct, but you added #2 to your equation which made it = 3. Your avalanche crushed your proof, of which there was none. You can post 1000s of scriptures, but if your interpretation is wrong, which it most definitely is, then you are still wrong. You have done nothing to examine your error, which you keep repeating over and over...which just makes you look foolish...

Again, here is the problem:
"Now, friend, Jesus said that until Heaven/earth passes the Law of Moses must be kept even to its very least commands. Are you doing so or not?"

YOU wrote:
"Are you keeping the Law of Moses even down to the very least of its 600+ commands (observing every jot and tittle of the Mosaic Law), and are you teaching others that they must keep all 600+ commands of the Mosaic Law?"

 

[parousia70]

I addressed your posts, you just don't like my answers.

You haven't answered anything. You have impugned my character and attacked me as a person, but you have failed miserably when it comes to addressing the content of my posts.
All our readers know this to be true, even though you appear to have buried your head in the sand.

Again, here is the problem:
"Now, friend, Jesus said that until Heaven/earth passes the Law of Moses must be kept even to its very least commands. Are you doing so or not?"

Well? .....Are you or are you not?
Your refusal to answer indeed IS the problem.
Why won't you answer?
I know why. Do you?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

You haven't answered anything. You have impugned my character and attacked me as a person, but you have failed miserably when it comes to addressing the content of my posts.
All our readers know this to be true, even though you appear to have buried your head in the sand.


Well? .....Are you or are you not?
Your refusal to answer indeed IS the problem.
Why won't you answer?
I know why. Do you?

I ONLY commented on what you have written and I have answered you. Again, the problem is your questions and their lack of understanding. You keep equating what Yeshua said, which IS true, with what you say, which is not. This just shows your lack of knowledge of the subject. Our "readers" who understand the subject would never agree with you...

I guess I will have to remind you yet again:

Again, here is the problem:
"Now, friend, Jesus said that until Heaven/earth passes the Law of Moses must be kept even to its very least commands. Are you doing so or not?"

YOU wrote:
"Are you keeping the Law of Moses even down to the very least of its 600+ commands (observing every jot and tittle of the Mosaic Law), and are you teaching others that they must keep all 600+ commands of the Mosaic Law?"

 

[parousia70]

I ONLY commented on what you have written and I have answered you. Again, the problem is your questions and their lack of understanding. You keep equating what Yeshua said, which IS true, with what you say, which is not. This just shows your lack of knowledge of the subject. Our "readers" who understand the subject would never agree with you...

I guess I will have to remind you yet again:

Again, here is the problem:
"Now, friend, Jesus said that until Heaven/earth passes the Law of Moses must be kept even to its very least commands. Are you doing so or not?"

YOU wrote:
"Are you keeping the Law of Moses even down to the very least of its 600+ commands (observing every jot and tittle of the Mosaic Law), and are you teaching others that they must keep all 600+ commands of the Mosaic Law?"

Repeating my post back to me while telling me I'm wrong, without providing even a quark of evidence to support your contention, does not = "you answering my post"

A + B does not = 6

Are you breaking even the least of the Law's commands?
Yes or No?

Do you even know if you are or aren't?
I do.

You re making my point almost better than I am...
Keep it up if you wish to continue to corroborate my position with our readers as you have been doing... however, if you wish our readers to learn and understand YOUR point, maybe you should actually make one.

(good thing I'm a glutton for punishment - and an optimist to a fault, otherwise I'd have bowed out of this thread long ago... but you continue to make exposing your error so easy that I think I'll stick around and watch you spin...)