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Do Sabbath Keepers KEEP the Sabbath?

Yeshua HaDerekh

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Repeating my post back to me while telling me I'm wrong, without providing even a quark of evidence to support your contention, does not = "you answering my post"

A + B does not = 6

Are you breaking even the least of the Law's commands?
Yes or No?

Do you even know if you are or aren't?
I do.

You re making my point almost better than I am...
Keep it up if you wish to continue to corroborate my position with our readers as you have been doing... however, if you wish our readers to learn and understand YOUR point, maybe you should actually make one.

(good thing I'm a glutton for punishment - and an optimist to a fault, otherwise I'd have bowed out of this thread long ago... but you continue to make exposing your error so easy that I think I'll stick around and watch you spin...)

That just makes my point even stronger...you see your posts repeatedly and you still see nothing wrong with them. What is my error? I already answered you in regards to your silly question...it is YOUR error that is in question...the only thing spinning is your error, over and over...like a broken record...they were YOUR questions, not our "readers"... What have you exposed? The ONLY thing YOU exposed was your lack of knowledge. BTW, A+B can =6 IF A=3 and B=3. You have until 8:00, then we will have to continue this on Sunday. Like I said, if you were the least bit interested in truth, you would see that what Yeshua said was true and what you wrote in your questions is silly. So you keep berating me with them, like the Pharisees...
 
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parousia70

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That just makes my point even stronger...you see your posts repeatedly and you still see nothing wrong with them. What is my error? I already answered you in regards to your silly question...it is YOUR error that is in question...the only thing spinning is your error, over and over...like a broken record...they were YOUR questions, not our "readers"... What have you exposed? The ONLY thing YOU exposed was your lack of knowledge. You have until 8:00, then we will have to continue this on Sunday. Like I said, if you were the least bit interested in truth, you would see that what Yeshua said was true and what you wrote in your questions is silly. So you keep berating me with them, like the Pharisees...

Did you have a point to make?
Apparently you have until 8: PM to make it if so...

Here's my point:
You don't follow the law.
You break it's commands.
Jesus spelled out the consequences of your lawbreaking actions.

Prove me wrong.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Did you have a point to make?
Apparently you have until 8: PM to make it if so...

Here's my point. You don't follow the law.
You break it's commands.

Prove me wrong.

I already proved you know nothing of the Torah. So what is the law?...tell me... What commands? Torah shbaal peh? Torah she'bikhtav? Shulchan aruch? Yes, run away and look everything up on Wiki LOL!
 
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parousia70

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I already proved you know nothing of the Torah. So what is the law?...tell me... What commands? Torah shbaal peh? Torah she'bikhtav? Shulchan aruch? Yes, run away and look everything up on Wiki LOL!

I don't have to tell you.
You have to tell me.
What commands do you THINK constitute the Law?

You don't know do you?
Yet You break them daily.

Jesus tells us the price you'll pay.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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I don't have to tell you.
You have to tell me.
What commands do you THINK constitute the Law?

You don't know do you?
Yet You break them daily.

Jesus tells us the price you'll pay.

LOL, yeah I didn't think you knew! No, YOU say I break them, which ones? Come on, don't cop out! What is the law?

YOU wrote:
Here's my point:
You don't follow the law.
You break it's commands.

YOU wrote:
Are you keeping the Law of Moses even down to the very least of its 600+ commands (observing every jot and tittle of the Mosaic Law), and are you teaching others that they must keep all 600+ commands of the Mosaic Law?
 
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parousia70

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LOL, yeah I didn't think you knew! No, YOU say I break them, which ones? Come on, don't cop out! What is the law?
Read MOSES and his requirements. You demonstrably do NOT keep the Law of Moses now but have invented your own version of the "Law" to follow..

If you would just read Moses then you would have no confusion on this and make unsupportable claims that any people on our planet observe the Law of Moses today.

You think because you observe Saturday Sabbath that you "follow the Law"? LOL

Nothing could be further from the truth.

Nearly 1/2 of the Law of Moses required a Temple and legitimate Levitical priests just in order to observe the Law.

We know you don't keep the Law of Moses because of how many of Moses' precepts depended on Temple sacrifices and the mediation of the Levitical priesthood of Aaron, which went fully extinct at AD 70.

We know you don't keep the Law of Moses because of how few people you've stoned to death.

The Mosaic Covenant was a "tutorial" for Israel, to bring them to the Messiah (Gal 3:17-19,24-25). Once the Messiah had come, the jews were no longer under that tutorial system (Gal 3:24-25), but were redeemed from it (Gal 4:4-5). So, the apostles' ministry consisted of preparing God's people for the new covenant world in which the Mosaic Covenantal system wouldn't exist as it formerly did. This took place in AD 70, when the Temple was destroyed and the essential ceremonial distinctives of the Mosaic Temple practices went extinct.

The moral code that Moses established was taken into the New Covenant, but the ceremonial system of ordinances (blood sacrifices, jewish feasts, clean foods, etc.) was removed by Messiah's Cross.

Perhaps you will do a bible study on the book of Galatians, which lays out that the ceremonial law has reached its fulfillment in Christ Jesus. This is why the Old Covenant system of animal sacrifices, Levitical priesthood, circumcision, etc disappeared back in the first century. Paul specifically cites that all those things had at one time been introduced by God to prefigure the coming of Christ (Gal 3:23-29/Col 2:16-20). Now that the Christ has come, those things fall away like scaffolding, and what remains is Christ Himself and His New Covenant Law.

As for the Sabbath, as that is apparently the basket you're hanging all your eggs on, the Saturday Sabbath is not erased, but Col 2:15-17 explicitly says it was no longer binding once Christ came (as is also true of animal sacrifice, and physical circumcision). Mandatory Saturday observance was part of the Old Mosaic Covenant; and Christ abrogated the Mosaic Covenant by instituting His New Covenant (Hebrews 7:12-22; Galatians 3:17-29). So already in the New Testament era you see the apostles teaching men to shift away from mandatory observances of the Mosaic ceremonial practices (Gal 5:1-6; Acts 15:5-11, 24-29).

Jesus brought the Mosaic contract/economy to an end when he instituted his New Covenant contract/economy. The Mosaic contract began at Sinai and reached its consummation in the generation of The Christ. The Christic contract begins at Mt. Zion in the first century and has no end.

Hebrews 7:11-19 makes clear that the Mosaic constitution instituted by Moses and transacted through the Levitical priesthood was not the way to perfection. As such, it was made obsolete by the Christic constitution instituted by The Christ and transacted via the Melchizedekian priesthood.

We are now under the Law of Christ (1 Cor 9:21; Gal 6:2), which is New Covenant Law. The Mosaic Law Contract was annulled in full (Heb 7:11-19) and went extinct at AD 70 (it was "about to vanish" at the time Hebrews 8:13 was written). Many aspects of Mosaic law carry over into the Christic Law within the eternal New Covenant contract, but with important modifications:

(1) the Deuteronomy 27:26 "curse of the Mosaic Law" is abolished under the Christic Legal System (Gal 3:10-13)
(2) the Mosaic ceremonial and temple rites are done away (Col 2:14-17; Eph 2:14-18; Matt 12:1-7; Matt 15:15-20; Mk 7:14-15; John 4:21-23; Mark 13:1-4,30)
(3) the principle spirit of God's laws through Moses is to be applied and fully observed, and not a tortured application of the letter of Mosaic law (2 Cor 3:6, 1 Tim 1:8-10; Rom13:8-10; Rom 8:4; Rom 2:13)
(4) Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18 are the two greatest of the Mosaic laws from which all judicial observance must flow (Lk 10:27)

So, the New Covenant Law of Christ (1 Cor 9:21; Gal 6:2) is a modification of the old Mosaic Law system. The Law of Christ is the final code for true Israel. It contains The Christ's teaching on how to live by God's law under a New and everlasting Covenant.

* BTW, None of this can be found on Wiki lol
(and for our readers, I'm confident this puts to rest Derekh's spurious assault on my character that I "don't know scripture" lol)

Your Turn...
Show us what you claim constitutes the Law and how you follow it in totality.
 
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parousia70

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No one has the mark of the beast yet---it is when it [sunday observance] is made law.
As with Daniel's friends when the command to bow down to the image was made law, it then became a matter of to whom allegiance is due, God or man.
Revelation speaks of everyone receiving a mark that signifies unity with the evil Beast.

Everyone knows that a new "mark" arose among Christianity in recent centuries that for the first time in history caused some people to break away from Sunday observance of the Lord's Resurrection. This unique mark could be the one foreseen in Revelation.

History demonstrates that while the Christian Church observed Sunday celebration of the Lord's Resurrection from the first century onward, a new practice began marking certain people starting in 1860, when a new sect began introducing a practice that did not originate among the early Church up to that time: a mass boycott of the Lord's Day.

I'm becoming convinced that the Saturday Worship that this group promotes instead of the Lord's Day is so unique in Christian history as to represent a possible Mark of the Beast. The sect that launched the new movement even has a special prophet: Ellen G. White. And we all know that a false prophet figures large in the book of Revelation.

All the ingredients for the Mark of the Beast are right here:

(1) a radical change to the standard worship within Christianity
(2) obscure prophetesses who foretell strange things and deceive large numbers of people in their web of failed prophecies
(3) a clear mark that is related to worship (Saturday and rejection of the Lord's Resurrection Day).

To think that Sunday observance of the Lord's Resurrection Day, which has been the constant practice of all Christianity for 2,000 years, might be the mark doesn't make any sense whatsoever. However, the radical departure from that true and constant faith offered by the Sabbatarian prophetesses may very well be the mark of the beast.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Read MOSES and his requirements. You demonstrably do NOT keep the Law of Moses now but have invented your own version of the "Law" to follow..

If you would just read Moses then you would have no confusion on this and make unsupportable claims that any people on our planet observe the Law of Moses today.

You think because you observe Saturday Sabbath that you "follow the Law"? LOL

Nothing could be further from the truth.

Nearly 1/2 of the Law of Moses required a Temple and legitimate Levitical priests just in order to observe the Law.

We know you don't keep the Law of Moses because of how many of Moses' precepts depended on Temple sacrifices and the mediation of the Levitical priesthood of Aaron, which went fully extinct at AD 70.

We know you don't keep the Law of Moses because of how few people you've stoned to death.

The Mosaic Covenant was a "tutorial" for Israel, to bring them to the Messiah (Gal 3:17-19,24-25). Once the Messiah had come, the jews were no longer under that tutorial system (Gal 3:24-25), but were redeemed from it (Gal 4:4-5). So, the apostles' ministry consisted of preparing God's people for the new covenant world in which the Mosaic Covenantal system wouldn't exist as it formerly did. This took place in AD 70, when the Temple was destroyed and the essential ceremonial distinctives of the Mosaic Temple practices went extinct.

The moral code that Moses established was taken into the New Covenant, but the ceremonial system of ordinances (blood sacrifices, jewish feasts, clean foods, etc.) was removed by Messiah's Cross.

Perhaps you will do a bible study on the book of Galatians, which lays out that the ceremonial law has reached its fulfillment in Christ Jesus. This is why the Old Covenant system of animal sacrifices, Levitical priesthood, circumcision, etc disappeared back in the first century. Paul specifically cites that all those things had at one time been introduced by God to prefigure the coming of Christ (Gal 3:23-29/Col 2:16-20). Now that the Christ has come, those things fall away like scaffolding, and what remains is Christ Himself and His New Covenant Law.

As for the Sabbath, as that is apparently the basket you're hanging all your eggs on, the Saturday Sabbath is not erased, but Col 2:15-17 explicitly says it was no longer binding once Christ came (as is also true of animal sacrifice, and physical circumcision). Mandatory Saturday observance was part of the Old Mosaic Covenant; and Christ abrogated the Mosaic Covenant by instituting His New Covenant (Hebrews 7:12-22; Galatians 3:17-29). So already in the New Testament era you see the apostles teaching men to shift away from mandatory observances of the Mosaic ceremonial practices (Gal 5:1-6; Acts 15:5-11, 24-29).

Jesus brought the Mosaic contract/economy to an end when he instituted his New Covenant contract/economy. The Mosaic contract began at Sinai and reached its consummation in the generation of The Christ. The Christic contract begins at Mt. Zion in the first century and has no end.

Hebrews 7:11-19 makes clear that the Mosaic constitution instituted by Moses and transacted through the Levitical priesthood was not the way to perfection. As such, it was made obsolete by the Christic constitution instituted by The Christ and transacted via the Melchizedekian priesthood.

We are now under the Law of Christ (1 Cor 9:21; Gal 6:2), which is New Covenant Law. The Mosaic Law Contract was annulled in full (Heb 7:11-19) and went extinct at AD 70 (it was "about to vanish" at the time Hebrews 8:13 was written). Many aspects of Mosaic law carry over into the Christic Law within the eternal New Covenant contract, but with important modifications:

(1) the Deuteronomy 27:26 "curse of the Mosaic Law" is abolished under the Christic Legal System (Gal 3:10-13)
(2) the Mosaic ceremonial and temple rites are done away (Col 2:14-17; Eph 2:14-18; Matt 12:1-7; Matt 15:15-20; Mk 7:14-15; John 4:21-23; Mark 13:1-4,30)
(3) the principle spirit of God's laws through Moses is to be applied and fully observed, and not a tortured application of the letter of Mosaic law (2 Cor 3:6, 1 Tim 1:8-10; Rom13:8-10; Rom 8:4; Rom 2:13)
(4) Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18 are the two greatest of the Mosaic laws from which all judicial observance must flow (Lk 10:27)

So, the New Covenant Law of Christ (1 Cor 9:21; Gal 6:2) is a modification of the old Mosaic Law system. The Law of Christ is the final code for true Israel. It contains The Christ's teaching on how to live by God's law under a New and everlasting Covenant.

* BTW, None of this can be found on Wiki lol
(and for our readers, I'm confident this puts to rest Derekh's spurious assault on my character that I "don't know scripture" lol)

Your Turn...
Show us what you claim constitutes the Law and how you follow it in totality.

LOL, I see, you switched your tune now that you read some websites! You see I never claimed such, YOU did in your silly questions! As I said, NO ONE can keep the totality of the law. EVER. So now you have just proven that I was correct and now you know better! Hopefully now you know how silly your questions were. you can ONLY keep commandments that apply to you at the time. Since there is not a Temple, those laws can't be kept. Remember, the 1st Temple was also destroyed so some laws could not be kept then either or in captivity in Babylon. Then the 2nd temple was built. So your theory about "heaven and earth" passing away is wrong. Some laws were ONLY for woman and some ONLY for men, some ONLY for priests. A man can't keep laws that are ONLY for woman. So again, NO ONE could ever keep the totality of the Commandments and I have never said otherwise. Shabbat Shalom! See you on Sunday!
 
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mmksparbud

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LOL!!! The 10 commandments were written on stone by God Himself and kept in the ark of the testimony--the Mercy seat where God Himself sat. The Law of Moses was dictated by God, written by Moses on parchment and kept outside the ark. Stone is permanent--parchment is not. Inside the ark, versus outside the ark. The ark of the testi9mopny of which it is
Revelation speaks of everyone receiving a mark that signifies unity with the evil Beast.

Everyone knows that a new "mark" arose among Christianity in recent centuries that for the first time in history caused some people to break away from Sunday observance of the Lord's Resurrection. This unique mark could be the one foreseen in Revelation.

History demonstrates that while the Christian Church observed Sunday celebration of the Lord's Resurrection from the first century onward, a new practice began marking certain people starting in 1860, when a new sect began introducing a practice that did not originate among the early Church up to that time: a mass boycott of the Lord's Day.

I'm becoming convinced that the Saturday Worship that this group promotes instead of the Lord's Day is so unique in Christian history as to represent a possible Mark of the Beast. The sect that launched the new movement even has a special prophet: Ellen G. White. And we all know that a false prophet figures large in the book of Revelation.

All the ingredients for the Mark of the Beast are right here:

(1) a radical change to the standard worship within Christianity
(2) obscure prophetesses who foretell strange things and deceive large numbers of people in their web of failed prophecies
(3) a clear mark that is related to worship (Saturday and rejection of the Lord's Resurrection Day).

To think that Sunday observance of the Lord's Resurrection Day, which has been the constant practice of all Christianity for 2,000 years, might be the mark doesn't make any sense whatsoever. However, the radical departure from that true and constant faith offered by the Sabbatarian prophetesses may very well be the mark of the beast.

It is very easy to see that the mark will be a sign of worship---either to the beast or to God. Everyone will have a mark, you are either sealed by God, or by the beast. There is only one commandment given that refers to a day of worship. It was instituted at creation, written by God Himself, on stone and kept in the ark of the testimony which is also mentioned in Rev.

Rev_11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

And it is the day on which we will still be worshipping Him on the New Earth.
Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

Please name the verse that states God commanded the 1st day of the week is now the Sabbath instead of the 7th. Unless you do so---a command from God, written by His own hand on stone---stands.

And FYI---the 7th day Sabbath was, and is still, kept by other denominations long before there ever was an EGW born.
 
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parousia70

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LOL, I see, you switched your tune now that you read some websites! You see I never claimed such, YOU did in your silly questions! As I said, NO ONE can keep the totality of the law. EVER. So now you have just proven that I was correct and now you know better! Hopefully now you know how silly your questions were. you can ONLY keep commandments that apply to you at the time. Since there is not a Temple, those laws can't be kept. Remember, the 1st Temple was also destroyed so some laws could not be kept then either or in captivity in Babylon. Then the 2nd temple was built. So your theory about "heaven and earth" passing away is wrong. Some laws were ONLY for woman and some ONLY for men, some ONLY for priests. A man can't keep laws that are ONLY for woman. So again, NO ONE could ever keep the totality of the Commandments and I have never said otherwise. Shabbat Shalom! See you on Sunday!

So your position is that Jesus was simply mistaken, or perhaps completely ignorant of the knowledge you possess when He said:

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


Maybe you think He was outright Lying?
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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So your position is that Jesus was simply mistaken, or perhaps completely ignorant of the knowledge you possess when He said:

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


Maybe you think He was outright Lying?

No, I think YOU are mistaken...
 
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Saint Steven

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It seems to me that it helps to view the scripture in question (Matt.5:19) as a part of the Sermon on the Mount, rather than a reference to "the law". Chapters five through seven are bookended by these verses below. That being the case, what are "the least of these commands" and "these commands"?

Matthew 5:1-2
Now when Jesus saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, 2 and he began to teach them. ...

Matthew 7:28-29
When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching, 29 because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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It seems to me that it helps to view the scripture in question (Matt.5:19) as a part of the Sermon on the Mount, rather than a reference to "the law". Chapters five through seven are bookended by these verses below. That being the case, what are "the least of these commands" and "these commands"?

Matthew 5:1-2
Now when Jesus saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, 2 and he began to teach them.

Matthew 7:28-29
When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching, 29 because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law.

The sermon on the mount was really statements and not commands.

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

It was only after this statement, does He expound on the Law...
 
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parousia70

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The sermon on the mount was really statements and not commands.

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

It was only after this statement, does He expound on the Law...

Perhaps one day you will expound upon what you believe he meant.
 
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parousia70

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No, I think YOU are mistaken...
Well, we all know what opinions are like...
Perhaps one day you will support those opinions with scripture. We can only hope.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Well, we all know what opinions are like...
Perhaps one day you will support those opinions with scripture. We can only hope.

I have multiple times. It is you who only have unsupported theories...
 
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parousia70

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I have multiple times. It is you who only have unsupported theories...

I'm confident our readers have seen enough from us both to come to their own conclusions as to which of us has provided the greater weight of scriptural support.
 
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parousia70

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He meant what He said...

Yes, He did...
18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

I know how this applies to me.
Still waiting for you to explain how you think it applies to you.
 
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parousia70

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. The Law of Moses was dictated by God, written by Moses on parchment and kept outside the ark. Stone is permanent--parchment is not.

So your position is that Laws Given by God, dictated to men and written on parchment are not BINDING to men and can be disregarded as meaningless?

Please name the verse that states God commanded the 1st day of the week is now the Sabbath instead of the 7th. Unless you do so---a command from God, written by His own hand on stone---stands.

Straw Man.
Please show me where I claimed the Sabbath changed from the 7th to the first day?

I NEVER have made such a claim.

Why don't you argue against what I have ACTUALLY claimed instead of making up a Straw man to tear down?

And FYI---the 7th day Sabbath was, and is still, kept by other denominations long before there ever was an EGW born.

Show me where I have suggesting otherwise.
Go back and study my ACTUAL post.

Get back to me with a cogent reply.
 
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