Do Christians actually believe in God?

[Amittai]

Christians believe that ... rationalisations for it.

Some Christians may think they are supposed to ask for miracles but most won't think that.

Your very good question is mainly:

- why do Christians pray?

I think it is:

- for providence (and that's a big subject)
- for growth in our selves and relationship (also a big subject)

The main trouble is churches' doctrines are against these things.

This is why Christians are so conflicted.

Spreading a gospel to outsiders is supposed to be only one fifth of what we do. When we get the rest wrong we either bother badly, or we rationalise about everything.

I had to invent my own doctrines from thin air. When I run them by people if they understand at all they don't seem to find anything wrong with them. But they so obviously conflict with what authority tells them we are onto a non starter.

Most Christians' belief starts with a relationship. Some Christians will tell you you are under obligation and this is why I keep on insisting you are not.

Most Christians at CF are long since several times burned-over by Kuhlmannism, Falwellism and their similar variants.

In many cases our relationships have gone backwards or been destroyed. There aren't effective channels in churches. I have factual answers and not many of those, and no practical ones. This is why it is premature for the indefinite term for me to invite you into any church. The product of Scripture and Holy Spirit ought to be good and has been ruined by power struggles by church authorities against isolated individual members who aren't trying to get at them in the first place. Our gifts were actually supposed to be diverse.

 

[LightBearer]

Thank you very much, LB. I'm afraid I wasn't able to access the link you sent, but I believe I might be familiar with some of the content from previous debates.

Hi InterstedAtheist, hope you and yours are well.

I'll post the link again seeing as it's working for me at the moment. If you have a problem with it, simply cut and paste into a browser.

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/publication/r1/lp-e/gm

I doubt you'll be familiar with this content, it's a real eye opener.

Would it be possible for you to copy or summarise parts of the arguments on here, if they're not too lengthy?

It may be a bit lengthy and really no substitute for checking the material from source.

I'll post the preview to one of the chapters that I feel have answers to one of the important/serious questions in your link.

From your link:
A religion without internal disputes or factions.
A religion whose followers have never committed or taken part in atrocities.

The Bible—God’s Word or Man’s?
Chapter 3

The Bible’s False Friend

"In this chapter, we discuss the major reason why many from non-Christian lands refuse to accept the Bible as the Word of God. Historically, Christendom has claimed to believe in the Bible and to be its guardian. But the religious organizations of Christendom have been associated with some of the most appalling horrors of history, from the Crusades and pogroms of the Middle Ages to the Holocaust of our own time. Is the conduct of Christendom a good reason to reject the Bible? The truth is, Christendom has proved to be a false friend of the Bible. Indeed, when Christendom emerged in the fourth century C.E., the Bible’s fight to survive was by no means over."

Here's a link to this chapter: https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101989033

I feel that this chapter alone is a real eye opener.

Stay safe and well.
LB

 

[AV1611VET]

I feel that this chapter alone is a real eye opener.

Re the Crusades, I like asking people if the Crusades were with respect to the Bible, or in spite of It.

Usually they'll come back with, "Well, the Crusaders did it with respect to the Bible."

But that's not what I'm asking.

I'm asking them what they think.

I.e., if they think the Crusaders were right or wrong, according to the Bible.

 

[LightBearer]

Re the Crusades, I like asking people if the Crusades were with respect to the Bible, or in spite of It.

Usually they'll come back with, "Well, the Crusaders did it with respect to the Bible."

But that's not what I'm asking.

I'm asking them what they think.

I.e., if they think the Crusaders were right or wrong, according to the Bible.

Absolutely wrong. Check out the link.

 

[AV1611VET]

Absolutely wrong. Check out the link.

I'll pass.

If that link favors the Crusades and the Holocaust as being Christian endeavors done with respect to the Bible, then it must be in cahoots with academia.

Many educated people here think that, just because Hitler wore a belt buckle that said GOTT MIT UNS on it, that made him a Christian.

I don't know what our colleges are teaching today in their history classes, but it's wrong.

 

[AV1611VET]

Indeed, when Christendom emerged in the fourth century C.E.,

By the way, what's this "C.E." stuff?

Does supplanting "Anno Domini" with "Common Era" make this guy some kind of authority on Christianity?

May I ask what college he graduated from?

(ETA: He doesn't need CE, he needs CF. We'll set him straight! )

 

[InterestedAtheist]

I never said that. But, the article does point out that the medical setup we have today stems from "Christian mercy".

If you're not saying that, then what point are you trying to make? I'm quite happy to accept that Christianity has had a great influence on society in many ways, some of them for the better.

Yes, mostly hocus pocus for the elite only.

Hocus pocus? Do you know anything about the medical practices of medieval Europe? Partly based on astronomy, partly based on the idea that illness was a punishment from God for sin, and partly based on the ideas of the ancient Greeks. Pre-scientific though they were, the third element was the most rational and useful of the lot.

Yes, and as you pointed out, this concept was borne out of Judeo-Christian thought.

the concept of a secular state was based on the perfectly sensible idea that a religious state was unfair, caused wars, and was generally a bad idea.

Christians went with it because they understood that we are awaiting the kingdom on Earth as it is in heaven, where no mere man will reign.

That's just not true. Christians either went along with it because they realised it was the best way to create a state, or bitterly opposed it because they thought it was blasphemy not to include God in the constitution.

 

[Tone]

That's just not true. Christians either went along with it because they realised it was the best way to create a state, or bitterly opposed it because they thought it was blasphemy not to include God in the constitution

Oh He's included. If you don't believe anything else, believe this.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Oh He's included. If you don't believe anything else, believe this.

I don't believe it. Tell me where the word "God" is in the Constitution of the United States of America.
I believe it mentions "the year of our Lord," of course, but I doubt you were referring to a dating convention.
I do know that the United States is on record as saying that the United States of America is in no sense founded on the Christian religion.

 

[Tone]

I don't believe it. Tell me where the word "God" is in the Constitution of the United States of America.
I believe it mentions "the year of our Lord," of course, but I doubt you were referring to a dating convention.
I do know that the United States is on record as saying that the United States of America is in no sense founded on the Christian religion.

Even better, "the year of our Lord"--that narrows it down to the Messiah!

The "United States"? You mean "We the People" right?

Again, you can't take one line of quoted text, and dismiss the reality of the situation.

 

[Tone]

"United States, the federal constitution does not make a reference to God as such, although it uses the formula "the year of our Lord" in Article VII. At the state level, the constitutions of the states of California, Florida, Georgia, Illinois, Kansas, Kentucky, Michigan, Minnesota,[7] New Jersey, New Mexico, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Colorado, Washington, Nevada, Iowa, Texas, and Massachusetts, and the U.S. territory Puerto Rico, make a reference to God. They generally use an invocatio of "God the Almighty" or the "Supreme Ruler of the Universe".[8][9]"
Constitution of the United States - Wikipedia

My state does!

But, this is beside the point.

Point being, any time you mention justice, peace, liberty, etc..., you're including God.

Believe me, you do not want a godless constitution.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

"United States, the federal constitution does not make a reference to God as such, although it uses the formula "the year of our Lord" in Article VII. At the state level, the constitutions of the states of California, Florida, Georgia, Illinois, Kansas, Kentucky, Michigan, Minnesota,[7] New Jersey, New Mexico, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Colorado, Washington, Nevada, Iowa, Texas, and Massachusetts, and the U.S. territory Puerto Rico, make a reference to God. They generally use an invocatio of "God the Almighty" or the "Supreme Ruler of the Universe".[8][9]"
Constitution of the United States - Wikipedia

My state does!

But, this is beside the point.

Point being, any time you mention justice, peace, liberty, etc..., you're including God.

Believe me, you do not want a godless constitution.

You've said it yourself. The fact that your state mentions God is beside the point.

Point being, any time you mention justice, peace, liberty, etc..., you're including God.

No, you're not. Look, this is a debating forum, you can't just make baseless assertions. Not to mention assertions that are insulting to all the many citizens of your country who are not Christians.

 

[Tone]

No, you're not. Look, this is a debating forum, you can't just make baseless assertions. Not to mention assertions that are insulting to all the many citizens of your country who are not Christians.

I'd rather insult people than God.

What an insult to Him to say you can have any good thing apart from Him.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

I'd rather insult people than God.

What an insult to Him to say you can have any good thing apart from Him.

You're in a debating forum, and you've just lost the debate. You admitted that God is not in the US constitution. That may or may not be a blasphemous or evil or ill-advised thing, but it is the truth.

If I may, I think this is a good time to stop our dialogue.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

I'm sorry, Amittai. I hope we will be able to pick things up here.

Some Christians may think they are supposed to ask for miracles but most won't think that.

But why not? The collected accounts of Christianity, from the Bible to Christian history over the last two thousand years, are full of God sending miracles in answer to prayer. We have claims of them in this very thread.

Your very good question is mainly:
- why do Christians pray?

That's very kind of youy! But pardon me, that's not my question. I am asking why Christians who do pray to God, asking Him for things, only ask Him for things that might happen anyway.

The main trouble is churches' doctrines are against these things.
This is why Christians are so conflicted.

I think, honestly, that this is a problem between you and other Christians, not for me.

 

[Tone]

You admitted that God is not in the US constitution.

Never that.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Never that.

You did in post #172, in the first line you quoted.
How about we take a break now?

 

[Tone]

You did in post #172, in the first line you quoted.
How about we take a break now?

Okay, the word "God" is not in there.

Have a nice break!

*"Lord" is though...

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Okay, the word "God" is not in there.

Have a nice break!

*"Lord" is though...

It's bedtime in my time zone. Goodnight, and thank you for the conversation!

 

[Tone]

It's bedtime in my time zone. Goodnight, and thank you for the conversation!

Buenos noches mi amigo!


*Buenas?