Do Christians actually believe in God?

[Amittai]

Here we go, then. How about this: "I assure you that God really doesn't exist and that one day you'll realise that."

I like it when people reaffirm this about what Kuhlmann called her "God" (a job title). I know a *eck of a lot about Kuhlmannists.

 

[Tone]

Barker was overexposed at a young age to Kathryn Kuhlmann, of whom there are frightening pictures, and then was made preacher for a relatively unsteady denomination.

Not many forum members are Kuhlmannists which is why Kuhlmann's literal and inaccurately defined argument doesn't stick well enough for you.

Are you reacting in empathy with him over his having inappropriately been pressurised? So am I.

But why would you be dictated to by Kuhlmann? Some of us aren't.

Ohhhh...now I'm an interested non-athiest...!

 

[InterestedAtheist]

The book of Matthew tells us
“Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him.

When I pray it's for his will and the needs of others. Have I asked in the past, of course I have but I always feel bad about it because there are so many that have needs greater than mine.

And yet the bible clearly shows us many people who do pray to God asking for things, and receiving them.
I have some doubts as to whether you can build a case based on a single isolated line of text. Perhaps in this case the line merely means that you should not flaunt your piety in public, rather than meaning you should never ask God for anything.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Yes, we do.

In that case, I'd be very interested in seeing you address all of the points in the OP.

Thank you for the reply you have given.

As to the points you bring up, take Paul for example.

At one point, we see this:

Acts 19:11 And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul:
12 So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.

But by the end of his ministry, we see this:

2 Timothy 4:20 Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick.

These "special miracles" were given to confirm one's apostleship.

But with the completion of the Scriptures in AD 96, these special miracles were done away.

1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

That "which is perfect (i.e., complete)" came in AD 96 when John completed the book of Revelation.

Now, I believe this is not the first time I have received a reply of this sort, in this thread.
And my answer is that, very clearly, there are Christians - lots and lots of them, and I'd hazard a guess that it's probably most of them - who do believe that it's okay to ask God for things, and who dio ask God for things, and who do believe that God gives them gifts, including working miracles for them.

So my question is, why do Christians almost always confine their prayers to asking for things which might happen anyway?
And really, I've had very, very few direct answers to this question, and none of them seem satisfactory, and if you've seen this thread you'll know why.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Again, it is rather obvious that all of these things have been highly influenced and affected by Judeo-Christianity.

Since Christianity has been the dominant religion in Christendom/Europe for the last two millenia, it would be very surprising if they had not. And, of course, I'm happy to agree that Christianity has greatly affected these things, often for the better. But that does not at all entitle you to claim that we owe these things to Christianity, or that Christianity can claim sole credit for them.

"The declaration of Christianity as an accepted religion in the Roman Empire drove an expansion of the provision of care. Following First Council of Nicaea in 325 AD construction of a hospital in every cathedral town was begun. Among the earliest were those built by the physician Saint Sampson in Constantinople and by Basil of Caesarea in modern-day Turkey towards the end of the 4th century. By the beginning of the 5th century, the hospital had already become ubiquitous throughout the Christian east in the Byzantine world,[3] this being a dramatic shift from the pre-Christian era of the Roman Empire where no civilian hospitals existed.[1] Called the "Basilias", the latter resembled a city and included housing for doctors and nurses and separate buildings for various classes of patients.[11] There was a separate section for lepers.[12] Some hospitals maintained libraries and training programs, and doctors compiled their medical and pharmacological studies in manuscripts. Thus in-patient medical care in the sense of what we today consider a hospital, was an invention driven by Christian mercy and Byzantine innovation.[13]"

You yourself concede that there were hospitals before Christianity. Yes, Christianity can certainly take credit for huge developments and improvements in hospitals. But are you not aware of the doctors and healers and centres of healing before and around the Christian countries? In the Chinese or Indian civilisations, untouched by Christianity for centuries? Galen? Hippocrates?

"It was not until after the Middle Ages, however, that natural law became associated with natural rights. In Greco-Roman and medieval times, doctrines of natural law concerned mainly the duties, rather than the rights, of “Man.” Moreover, as evidenced in the writings of Aristotle and St. Thomas Aquinas, these doctrines recognized the legitimacy of slavery and serfdom and, in so doing, excluded perhaps the most important ideas of human rights as they are understood today—freedom (or liberty) and equality.

The conception of human rights as natural rights (as opposed to a classical natural order of obligation) was made possible by certain basic societal changes, which took place gradually beginning with the decline of European feudalism from about the 13th century and continuing through the Renaissance to the Peace of Westphalia (1648). During this period, resistance to religious intolerance and political and economic bondage; the evident failure of rulers to meet their obligations under natural law; and the unprecedented commitment to individual expression and worldly experience that was characteristic of the Renaissance all combined to shift the conception of natural law from duties to rights. The teachings of Aquinas and Hugo Grotius on the European continent, the Magna Carta (1215) and its companion Charter of the Forests (1217), the Petition of Right (1628), and the English Bill of Rights (1689) in England were signs of this change. Each testified to the increasingly popular view that human beings are endowed with certain eternal and inalienable rights that never were renounced when humankind “contracted” to enter the social order from the natural order and never were diminished by the claim of the “divine right of kings.”"
Human rights - Natural law transformed into natural rights

Well, you've said it yourself. Awareness of human rights came in reaction to revolt against cruel and unjust rule. The barons weren't rebelling against King John because their Christian faith led them to, but because they felt he was becoming too powerful. The Renaissance was a reaction to people looking back to the glories of classical civilisation. You speak of reaction against "divine right of kings". But a God-approved monarchy is the chosen form of government in the Bible. It was King Charles I who said that God gave him the right to rule, and the people who rebelled against him. And as for the USa, well, what clearer sign can you have? People decided that religion did not mix well in government, and it was up to people themselves to create a good society; and so they did, with a government that was in no sense based on Christianity, as it was famously put.

And while it would be foolish to deny, and I do not deny, that the whole of western culture was directly shaped by Christianity, that does not mean that Christianity can take credit for all its praiseworthy developments, many of which came about without the influence of the Church, or even in direct opposition to it. The French Revolution may have been a reign of terror, but it was one of the first governments to state the notion that all men were equal, and while we may abhor the horrors that were done in its name, never the less out current love of liberty and democracy owes it a huge debt. History, in short, is complicated!

 

[InterestedAtheist]

I truly think it isn't as sharply delineated as that. Most Christians and even (at former periods) some non-Christians have sometimes seen a "hand of providence" in occurrences of all kinds big and small, expected and unexpected. If God exists He will know which bits to chalk up to 53% miracle (whatever definition "He" Himself uses!), 28% accident, 11% serendipity, 17% clever effort, etc. We are just "grateful" or "glad" or "proud" (in the good sense) or "hopeful" or "longing" or "hanging in there" or "feeling like giving up", before we even begin factoring in time scales. I don't think we cheese-pare our attributions unless something is quite unusual, in which case some people's usage of the word "miracle" is still going to be far more extravagant than others'.

A church that canonises specific happenings (e.g Rome) does so solely for organisational purposes (to declare ceremonies in honour of particular personalities) and this does not (genuinely) bind the church members to perceiving the circumstances any way other than what they want.

I also think i) we ask God for anything we feel like and ii) it may be less than random to see whether what appears in prayer request threads is representative on a wider scale. In other words I'm sure there are "steep" requests of God that don't make it to the threads. Also, I expect the circumstances underlying prayer requests are often more unpredictable than you are allowing for. I'm not proving you are asking a bad question to begin with, but I'd like to help you shift your search for answers (which will make some Christians uncomfortable) to firmer ground. This will be several posts as I'm not sure how to combine the responses like you did.

I'm very sorry, Amittai, but I am simply not able to read and respond to ten different posts, some of them quite lengthy. If we're going to have a discussion, please could you be more concise?

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Hi again InterestedAtheist.

Civil is good, works for me. So thank you for being civil.

Interesting questions above.

I checked your link:
The Theist's Guide to Converting Atheists - Daylight Atheism

Again, it raises some very appropriate and fair questions that deserve to be answered.

Here is a link to a small publication that answers some of the questions that your link posed, such as: https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/publication/r1/lp-e/gm
The Bible—God’s Word or Man’s?

Verified, specific prophecies that couldn’t have been contrived.
Chpt 9. Bible Prophecies That Came True.
Chpt 10. A Bible Prophecy You Have Seen Fulfilled.

Scientific knowledge in holy books that wasn’t available at the time.
Chpt 8. Science: Has It Proved the Bible Wrong?

Miraculous occurrences, especially if brought about through prayer.
Chpt 6. The Miracles—Did They Really Happen?

A genuinely flawless and consistent holy book.
Chpt 7. Does the Bible Contradict Itself?
Chpt 11. The Overall Harmony of the Bible.
Chpt 12. A Higher Source of Wisdom.

A religion without internal disputes or factions.
A religion whose followers have never committed or taken part in atrocities.
Chpt 3. The Bible’s False Friend.

Stay safe and well.
LB

Thank you very much, LB. I'm afraid I wasn't able to access the link you sent, but I believe I might be familiar with some of the content from previous debates. Would it be possible for you to copy or summarise parts of the arguments on here, if they're not too lengthy?

 

[Arc F1]

And yet the bible clearly shows us many people who do pray to God asking for things, and receiving them.
I have some doubts as to whether you can build a case based on a single isolated line of text. Perhaps in this case the line merely means that you should not flaunt your piety in public, rather than meaning you should never ask God for anything.

You are learning. That's a good thing.

 

[Arc F1]

Strange that you should say this, one a thread filled with people telling us that they do ask things of God, and that they do receive them. You say that people cannot work miracles through prayer - and yet I have examples in this very thread of people saying they did just that.

I can only speak for what I believe and my relationship with the Lord. No matter how hard we try we are all sinners, we can't break those chains. Our flesh makes it impossible. I've never met a person who has enough faith to move mountains.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

You are learning. That's a good thing.

May I ask: do you see that remark as at all patronising?

 

[InterestedAtheist]

I can only speak for what I believe and my relationship with the Lord. No matter how hard we try we are all sinners, we can't break those chains. Our flesh makes it impossible. I've never met a person who has enough faith to move mountains.

I feel I must make the point again: we have examples on this very thread in which people say they do talk to God, they do expect God (as a loving Father) to help them, and they do believe they have received replies from God, including miracles.

 

[Arc F1]

I feel I must make the point again: we have examples on this very thread in which people say they do talk to God, they do expect God (as a loving Father) to help them, and they do believe they have received replies from God, including miracles.

I can't speak for them. I'm not in their shoes. It's possible that I'm wrong.

 

[Arc F1]

May I ask: do you see that remark as at all patronising?

No not at all.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

No not at all.

Well and good, then. I shall take it in the spirit it was meant.
It's night time in my time zone. Good night!

 

[Arc F1]

Well and good, then. I shall take it in the spirit it was meant.
It's night time in my time zone. Good night!

Good talking to you and good night.

 

[Amittai]

I'm very sorry, Amittai, but I am simply not able to read and respond to ten different posts, some of them quite lengthy. If we're going to have a discussion, please could you be more concise?

At the time, I was only trying to survey a range of issues that had come up, of varying importance. Please try picking one or two of my later, shorter ones, if you would like.

Edit:

To recap, this is what I put on another thread:

The repentance Jesus calls us to is from oppressing our fellows.

In other words, the Bible is essentially addressed to insiders. Someone else pointed out recently (in a third thread) it is the account of the inevitable collapse of theocracy, as object lesson.

 

[Tone]

that does not at all entitle you to claim that we owe these things to Christianity, or that Christianity can claim sole credit for them.

I never said that. But, the article does point out that the medical setup we have today stems from "Christian mercy".

are you not aware of the doctors and healers and centres of healing before and around the Christian countries?

Yes, mostly hocus pocus for the elite only.

a government that was in no sense based on Christianity, as it was famously put.

Yes, and as you pointed out, this concept was borne out of Judeo-Christian thought.

Christians went with it because they understood that we are awaiting the kingdom on Earth as it is in heaven, where no mere man will reign.

 

[AV1611VET]

Interested Atheist, one quick question:

Were you a bus kid at a Pentecostal church?

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Interested Atheist, one quick question:

Were you a bus kid at a Pentecostal church?

No, I wasn't. I don't know what one is, unless it's a child who takes a bus to go to a Pentecostal church? Anyway, I've never attended a Pentecostal church before.

 

[AV1611VET]

No, I wasn't. I don't know what one is, unless it's a child who takes a bus to go to a Pentecostal church? Anyway, I've never attended a Pentecostal church before.

Charismatic?