Divine punishment? Is it needed?

[Andrewn]

Only God can generate a human spirit (Jn.3:6) yet like so many others, you have Him creating something initially that is anti-Him. Why? It's called born "again" because the text is comparing physical and spiritual birth not because it is something that happens twice to the human spirit. The actual wording says born form the "upward place" or from "above". This is how we know it is a birth from God and there is no "getting it wrong the first time" scenario only to have to redo it later on. There is nothing in the text of John 3 to suggest there are two spiritual births so that is not the meaning of regeneration.

Your insistence that unbelievers do not have a "spirit" is unusual. I see how you could reach this conclusion from Joh 3:6. But that conclusion contradicts the rest of the Bible. Nothing could live without "spirit" not even animals. And the list of verses I previously quoted shows that all people have "spirit." Their spirit may be unregenerate, but they have spirit. Have you read Watchman Nee's "The Spiritual Man"? One could reach your conclusion from that book, but it is not consistent with the Bible.

Guthrie places both the human pneuma and God’s pneuma, in the life of a believer, in a proper perspective:

‘It is difficult to conceive of pneuma as something added to man’s existing state. It is more reasonable to consider that man’s natural spirit, which in his unregenerate state is inactive, is revised at conversion by the Spirit of God. If this is so, a distinction must be made between man’s natural pneuma and his Christian pneuma, although the connection between them is close.’

I'll get back to the rest of your message. Meanwhile, I hope that other members could provide more insight about this issue. Meanwhile, I'd like to introduce one more biblical concept, in addition to soul and spirit. This is the concept of "heart / leb / kardia." It is relevant to the subject. How do you think it is related to the soul and spirit?

 

[com7fy8]

But is it cathartic or just never-ending?

God is good and kind; so I see how God does not take pleasure in evil people suffering because of their sinning. Plus, their evil-spirited way of suffering makes a horrible stench. So . . .

"I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live." (in Ezekiel 33:11)

So, punishment is not meant only to make wrong people suffer. But punishment manages evil so it does not do what is much worse.

But Satan's evil spirit (Ephesians 2:2) must go to the flaming sewer, with its horribly smelly and toxic waste of unforgiveness, nasty anger and complaining and arguing and blaming, and lusts driving and dominating and controlling. And ones who invest in these filthy anti-love things will go where they go.

Because their character has them submitting to Satanic things so they can not share with God in His goodness with His children. But they might worship excuses and blaming, instead of depending on God and enjoying His family.

Because of their character, they are like Satan who tried to overthrow and ruin Heaven; and so he had to be thrown out. We see how ones on this earth were right in the presence of Jesus, but they feared and hated and murdered Him. There are many whose character is also like theirs, though they have never heard of God's own Son. And even now they are getting "worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived." (in 2 Timothy 3:13) So, unless they trust in Jesus and be changed by God to love like Jesus . . . they are incapable of benefitting from Heaven.

And only fire, really, can manage such beings of Satan's evil kingdom.

So, I would say God is just being practical with each person.

 

[Hmm]

Your insistence that unbelievers do not have a "spirit" is unusual. I see how you could reach this conclusion from Joh 3:6. But that conclusion contradicts the rest of the Bible. Nothing could live without "spirit" not even animals. And the list of verses I previously quoted shows that all people have "spirit." Their spirit may be unregenerate, but they have spirit. Have you read Watchman Nee's "The Spiritual Man"? One could reach your conclusion from that book, but it is not consistent with the Bible.

Guthrie places both the human pneuma and God’s pneuma, in the life of a believer, in a proper perspective:

‘It is difficult to conceive of pneuma as something added to man’s existing state. It is more reasonable to consider that man’s natural spirit, which in his unregenerate state is inactive, is revised at conversion by the Spirit of God. If this is so, a distinction must be made between man’s natural pneuma and his Christian pneuma, although the connection between them is close.’

I'll get back to the rest of your message. Meanwhile, I hope that other members could provide more insight about this issue. Meanwhile, I'd like to introduce one more biblical concept, in addition to soul and spirit. This is the concept of "heart / leb / kardia." It is relevant to the subject. How do you think it is related to the soul and spirit?

I come at all this from a secular, atheistic background so I appreciate the ability that you and a few others have to explain these concepts in a way that someone like me can relate to. So, a question if I may...

I'm okay with the distinct between the material and the spiritual. The material world is explainable by science in the form of theories that are n the public space and are repeatable etc. So science can tell us about gravity, light and why my car brakes are suspect.

The spiritual deals with things that, in contrast, are in the private sphere and are not repeatable, even in theory, and so explains things like love, purpose, meaning etc. I'm simplifying of course.

So I get the difference between spirit and body, but what I don't get is the difference between spirit and soul.

So, your task, should you accept it, and even if you don't, is to explain this distinction in words of one syllable and preferably less...

 

[Clare73]

Your insistence that unbelievers do not have a "spirit" is unusual. I see how you could reach this conclusion from Joh 3:6. But that conclusion contradicts the rest of the Bible. Nothing could live without "spirit" not even animals. And the list of verses I previously quoted shows that all people have "spirit." Their spirit may be unregenerate, but they have spirit. Have you read Watchman Nee's "The Spiritual Man"? One could reach your conclusion from that book, but it is not consistent with the Bible.

Guthrie places both the human pneuma and God’s pneuma, in the life of a believer, in a proper perspective:

‘It is difficult to conceive of pneuma as something added to man’s existing state. It is more reasonable to consider that

man’s natural spirit, which in his unregenerate state is inactive, is revised at conversion by the Spirit of God. If this is so, a distinction must be made between man’s natural pneuma and his Christian pneuma, although the connection between them is close.’
I'll get back to the rest of your message. Meanwhile, I hope that other members could provide more insight about this issue. Meanwhile, I'd like to introduce one more biblical concept, in addition to soul and spirit. This is the concept of "heart / leb / kardia." It is relevant to the subject. How do you think it is related to the soul and spirit?

Man is born with his human spirit (as distinct from angelic spirit and divine spirit) in death, which occurred when Adam sinned, and which spiritual death his physical death was to demonstrate ("dying, you will die"--Genesis 2:17) . .the new birth is the (first) resurrection (of Rev. 20) of one's human spirit to eternal (God's) life by the Holy Spirit.

 

[sawdust]

Your insistence that unbelievers do not have a "spirit" is unusual. I see how you could reach this conclusion from Joh 3:6. But that conclusion contradicts the rest of the Bible. Nothing could live without "spirit" not even animals. And the list of verses I previously quoted shows that all people have "spirit." Their spirit may be unregenerate, but they have spirit. Have you read Watchman Nee's "The Spiritual Man"? One could reach your conclusion from that book, but it is not consistent with the Bible.

The problem is you listed of a heap of verses simply because they have the word spirit in them. Some of those verses are referring to believers who do have a human spirit and some are using the word spirit in a general sense like we would say "he has an adventurous spirit".

You didn't answer my question though. If God alone can generate spirit (and it is so), then why is He generating a spirit that is in opposition to Him or dead to Him? It makes no sense. Even if you can say "why", you still have the problem of answering "how". He is the God of the living not the dead. He does not produce death, He takes no pleasure in death.

Guthrie places both the human pneuma and God’s pneuma, in the life of a believer, in a proper perspective:

‘It is difficult to conceive of pneuma as something added to man’s existing state. It is more reasonable to consider that man’s natural spirit, which in his unregenerate state is inactive, is revised at conversion by the Spirit of God. If this is so, a distinction must be made between man’s natural pneuma and his Christian pneuma, although the connection between them is close.’

I see no problem in how a human spirit can be added to man's existence because I see man's humanity in their soul not their spirit as you do. How can there be anything like a "natural spirit" when it is God alone who generates it? It is important to recognise that God does not "create" a human spirit like He creates a soul (Gen.1:27) or creates the universe (Gen.1:1). It is said to be given or birthed because there is an "intimacy" involved. God is giving something of Himself in the process. It is the human spirit that connects us and receives the things of God. (Jn.3) It is what makes us spiritual. Even as believers who do have a spirit, if we walk outside of fellowship (ie outside the filling of the Spirit), we are known as "carnal" Christians because we behave just like unbelievers, unspiritual.

I'll get back to the rest of your message. Meanwhile, I hope that other members could provide more insight about this issue. Meanwhile, I'd like to introduce one more biblical concept, in addition to soul and spirit. This is the concept of "heart / leb / kardia." It is relevant to the subject. How do you think it is related to the soul and spirit?

The "heart" is the place that holds the values of one's thinking. It's the "treasure house" of the soul. It's connected to one's character.

Prov.23:7 For as he thinks in his heart, so is he.

Luke 6:45
A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.

 

[Saint Steven]

So I get the difference between spirit and body, but what I don't get is the difference between spirit and soul.

I'll weigh in on this with my off-beat perspective.

As I understand it, the soul is our individuality. Some have described it as our mind, will and emotions.

When our physical body dies and we depart from it, our spiritual body and our soul/mind go with it.

If you think of a brain as an organic computer hard drive where our mind is like the data, that might help to understand this. Your mind/soul, the data on the hard drive (brain), goes with your spirit into the afterlife. In fact we can't be judged without it. Every thought and careless word are in the memory.

 

[Andrewn]

The soul is rational, as well as the seat of emotion. There are so many verses that speak of seeking the Lord with your soul or saving your soul or how my soul rejoices in the Lord, I could easily fill the next ten pages. Even the pre-incarnate Lord Jesus speaks of His soul.

Lev.26:11 11 I will set My tabernacle among you, and My soul shall not abhor you.

Some emotions are governed by the animal soul. But I doubt that you will find anything to prove that it is rational. Saving the soul refers to saving one's life. But, it is occasionally mixed w/ the rational soul in late writings such as the Catholic Epistles and Revelation.

So unbelievers have no personality? They can't think rationally?

An unbeliever certainly has a rational soul / human spirit.

I see nothing in scripture that splits the soul into two different types of soul, (animal/rational)

The spirit / rational soul is different from the soul / life described in most of the Bible.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

Read the link and I agree with it. The only thing I believe it fails to realise is that when the scripture speaks of "life being in the blood" it is referring to animals.

The animal soul / life is in the blood this is what the Bible says. Your animal soul and mine are in the blood.

There is nothing in that link that suggested to me the human soul and spirit are one and the same thing, only different in their degree of capacity as you seem to be suggesting.

I never said that the animal soul and the spirit are one and the same.

I believe the heart of soul (nephesh) is consciousness. The difference between nephesh in animals and nephesh in humans is that when blood in animals stop flowing they no longer have consciousness whereas humans still have consciousness.

This is because our spirits continue to live, as the Bible says.

Some of those verses are referring to believers who do have a human spirit and some are using the word spirit in a general sense like we would say "he has an adventurous spirit".

The following verses show that all people have spirits:

Ecclesiastes 12:7 And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Job 32:8 But it is the spirit in man, the breath of the Almighty, that makes him understand.

1 Corinthians 2:11 For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

James 2:26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

Zechariah 12:1 The burden of the word of the Lord concerning Israel: Thus declares the Lord, who stretched out the heavens and founded the earth and formed the spirit of man within him:

Luke 1:46-47 And Mary said, “My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,

Ecclesiastes 3:21 Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down into the earth?

Proverbs 20:27 The spirit of man is the lamp of the Lord, searching all his innermost parts.

Numbers 16:22 And they fell on their faces and said, “O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and will you be angry with all the congregation?”

 

[Andrewn]

It is important to recognise that God does not "create" a human spirit like He creates a soul (Gen.1:27) or creates the universe (Gen.1:1). It is said to be given or birthed because there is an "intimacy" involved. God is giving something of Himself in the process. It is the human spirit that connects us and receives the things of God. (Jn.3) It is what makes us spiritual.

You're talking about the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father.

The human spirit is different.

 

[WarriorAngel]

I am curious of any doctrines about divine punishment, specifically as related to the afterlife, but in general, too.

I'll throw out a couple.

Anselm: Anselm argues the sin is not only disobedience, but it also dishonors God. Sin, therefore, incurs a double debt (disobedience and dishonor) that one must repay or for which one must be punished. He explains why punishment is needed. Punishment subjects the human creature, thereby putting them back in their place, which restores God's honor. So, punishment restores God's honor.

The Lord grieves the loss of souls.
But free will to choose leaves us to be separated from His Pure Essence, if we choose that separation.
Nobody carrying hate and all the taint of it can enter into His Presence.

Calvin: Calvin, ever the lawyer, said sin makes us criminals, essentially. Criminals must be punished. Sin incurs divine wrath, therefore, God must punish us. Of course, God punishes Jesus in our place so we don't have to be punished. He, too, will talk about punishment putting us back in our proper place.

John 1
“In the beginning was the Word. The Word was with God and the Word was God.”

He put Himself to death in our place.

Is that what divine punishment does? Is it a release valve for divine wrath? Does punishment restore God's honor? Are there any better ideas out there of what punishment is or does? Is divine punishment necessary? If so, why?

(The poll specifically concerns unrepentant sin at death so we can avoid wasting time getting to the point)

 

[sawdust]

You're talking about the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father.

The human spirit is different.

No, I'm not. The Spirit does not give birth to Himself. Without a human spirit we cannot comprehend the things of God. It's why we must be born from above. The Holy Spirit "takes the things of Christ" (who is the Word) and delivers the understanding but it is the human spirit that receives that understanding to be assimilated by the soul.

ps. I should add I am speaking here of the believer. The unbeliever has no apparatus for receiving which is why the Spirit Himself manifests the truth within the unbeliever. (cmp. Rom.1:19)

 

[Andrewn]

The Spirit does not give birth to Himself. Without a human spirit we cannot comprehend the things of God. It's why we must be born from above. The Holy Spirit "takes the things of Christ" (who is the Word) and delivers the understanding but it is the human spirit that receives that understanding to be assimilated by the soul.

True.

The unbeliever has no apparatus for receiving which is why the Spirit Himself manifests the truth within the unbeliever. (cmp. Rom.1:19)

You still insist that unbelievers do not have a spirit, even after reading the quotations in post #447. Compare the following verses, which completely contradict what you said:

Rom 1:19 because what can be known about God is plain to them—for God has shown it to them.

Rom 2:14 Therefore, when Gentiles, who do not have the Law, act by nature in conformity with the Law, they are a law for themselves, even though they have no Law.

The "heart" is the place that holds the values of one's thinking. . . . It's connected to one's character.

Prov.23:7 For as he thinks in his heart, so is he.

Luke 6:45
A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.

Perhaps we may agree that, in the Bible, the heart is the seat of the intellect, will, and emotion. We can leave what we do not agree about for a later time. Is the heart connected to the animal soul / life and becomes unconscious after death as SDAs and JWs believe? Is the heart connected to the spirit and remains conscious after death, as most Christians believe?

Exo 35:21 Everyone whose heart was moved and whose spirit prompted him came and brought an offering to the Lord for the work on the tent of meeting, for all its services, and for the holy garments.

Pro 17:22 A joyful heart is good medicine, but a broken spirit dries up the bones.

You may want to comment on post #446.

 

[sawdust]

You still insist that unbelievers do not have a spirit, even after reading the quotations in post #447.

Yes I do. I addressed (briefly) in #445 about the verses you quoted. I am still waiting for an answer to my question from that post.

Perhaps we may agree that, in the Bible, the heart is the seat of the intellect, will, and emotion. We can leave what we do not agree about for a later time. Is the heart connected to the spirit and remains conscious after death, as most Christians believe? Or, is it connected to the animal soul and becomes unconscious after death as SDAs and JWs believe?

As far as I'm concerned it's neither. Consciousness is in the soul, not the spirit. It is the soul that is created in God's image and likeness, invisible and having personhood. (Gen.1:27) It is the soul that is/was held in Sheol and those souls who Christ took captive when He returned to heaven now wait patiently for the Resurrection. We see a picture of some of those souls (those who died in the Tribulation) waiting under the altar in Revelation. (Rev.6:9)

It looks to me like you have God giving us a human spirit effectively twice. The first time it is defunct as it can't comprehend the things of God and then He has to fix it up at a later date so it works properly and can receive His teaching.

Makes no sense to me.

 

[Andrewn]

You didn't answer my question though. If God alone can generate spirit (and it is so), then why is He generating a spirit that is in opposition to Him or dead to Him? It makes no sense.

All spirits are created the same - a clean slate. No one is born w/ a spirit that is in opposition to Him. All are born w/ spirits that are dead to Him, that is separated from his Holy Spirit. OTOH, birth is integration. Physical birth is integration of flesh and spirit. Spiritual birth is integration of spirit w/ the Holy Spirit.

Even if you can say "why", you still have the problem of answering "how". He is the God of the living not the dead. He does not produce death, He takes no pleasure in death.

You seem to understand "death" as non-existence. This is not what death means. Death is separation. Physical death is separation of flesh and spirit. Spiritual death is separation of spirit and the Holy Spirit.

As far as I'm concerned it's neither. Consciousness is in the soul, not the spirit. It is the soul that is created in God's image and likeness, invisible and having personhood. (Gen.1:27)

Gen 1:27 doesn't even have the word "soul." Do you have other proof texts?

It looks to me like you have God giving us a human spirit effectively twice. The first time it is defunct as it can't comprehend the things of God and then He has to fix it up at a later date so it works properly and can receive His teaching.

You wouldn't say this if you read my previous messages, only those on page 23 of the thread are sufficient. It really doesn't sound like you read them.

Makes no sense to me.

I'm sure it doesn't. My position is very very different from yours. It's probably best if I stop discussing this issue.

 

[sawdust]

You seem to understand "death" as non-existence. This is not what death means. Death is separation. Physical death is separation of flesh and spirit. Spiritual death is separation of spirit and the Holy Spirit.

No I do not. I see it as separation same as you but you are the one who is having God produce everyone with a spirit that is dead to Him. Only God can generate the human spirit. Our spirit has to exist before it can be separated. You have God as the source of our separation rather than Adam.

I'm sure it doesn't. My position is very very different from yours. It's probably best if I stop discussing this issue.

Very different indeed. Even the world recognises itself as body and soul, not body and spirit.

 

[Andrewn]

Very different indeed. Even the world recognises itself as body and soul, not body and spirit.

For the record, I never said body and spirit. I consistently used the biblical expression flesh and spirit, for a very good reason .

 

[sawdust]

You wouldn't say this if you read my previous messages, only those on page 23 of the thread are sufficient. It really doesn't sound like you read them.

I've read all your messages. You don't seem to realise your own mistake. Unless you believe the source of the human spirit is something/someone other than God, you have Him generating a spirit that cannot comprehend Him only to have Him regenerate the same spirit at a later time so it can. The very purpose of the spiritual birth is to comprehend spiritual matters. We are not born of the Spirit to be a person, yet you place our personhood in our spirits.

 

[Clare73]

I've read all your messages. You don't seem to realise your own mistake. Unless you believe the source of the human spirit is something/someone other than God, you have Him generating a spirit that cannot comprehend Him only to have Him regenerate the same spirit at a later time so it can. The very purpose of the spiritual birth is to comprehend spiritual matters. We are not born of the Spirit to be a person, yet you place our personhood in our spirits.

Man is born with his human spirit (as distinct from angelic spirit and divine Spirit) in a state of death, which occurred when Adam sinned, his physical death thereby demonstrating his spiritual death ("dying, you will die"--Genesis 2:17). . .dying spiritually, you will die physically.
The new birth is the (first) resurrection (of Rev. 20) of one's human spirit to eternal (God's) life by the Holy Spirit.

 

[sawdust]

Man is born with his human spirit (as distinct from angelic spirit and divine Spirit) in a state of death, which occurred when Adam sinned, his physical death thereby demonstrating his spiritual death ("dying, you will die"--Genesis 2:17). . .dying spiritually, you will die physically.
The new birth is the (first) resurrection (of Rev. 20) of one's human spirit to eternal (God's) life by the Holy Spirit.

We've been through this in another thread so I'm not going to do it here. You keep ignoring the fact the purpose of the human spirit is to comprehend the things of God. It makes absolutely no sense that God would then generate a human spirit that cannot comprehend Him at birth. You are accusing God of generating "still born" spirits and what is really sad, is you don't even realise you are doing it.

The first resurrection is the whole person to eternal life, not just their spirit. The human spirit doesn't need to be resurrected, it needs to be born as per John 3. The second resurrection is to everlasting condemnation.

John 5:28&29
Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

 

[Clare73]

We've been through this in another thread so I'm not going to do it here. You keep ignoring the fact the purpose of the human spirit is to comprehend the things of God.

The purpose of the human spirit is that humans be spiritual beings, as are the angels and God himself, and not just animals like the apes.
That requires a human spirit from the get go. . .no spirit = no human, only animal.

And that human spirit also has an additional capacity to participate in divine life, which particular capacity can be lost, and it was in Adam's fall.
We inherit both a human nature that is fallen, and a human spirit without capacity to participate in divine life.

And not being able to participate in divine life, man therefore cannot comprehend the things of God
(1 Corinthians 2:14) until that particular capacity is restored, in its second birth from above.
(John 3:3-7)

It makes absolutely no sense that God would then generate a human spirit that cannot comprehend Him at birth.

You're using the wrong measuring rod.
Your issue is with Jesus, not me.

You are accusing God of generating "still born" spirits and what is really sad, is
you don't even realise you are doing it.

Maybe because I'm not.

Or maybe it is you who "doesn't realize" what Jesus is saying in John 3:3-7?

You sound like Nicodemus.

The first resurrection is the whole person to eternal life, not just their spirit.

Not according to the implications of what Jesus says in John 3:3-7.

The human spirit doesn't need to be resurrected, it needs to be born

No human spirit = no human, only animal.

as per John 3. The second resurrection is to everlasting condemnation.

CONTRAIRE!

The second resurrection is of all bodies reuniting with their spirits, some being resurrected to go to heaven while others being resurrected to go to condemnation.

John 5:28&29

Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

 

[Andrewn]

As I understand it, the soul is our individuality. Some have described it as our mind, will and emotions. . . . Your mind/soul, the data on the hard drive (brain), goes with your spirit into the afterlife.

Is there biblical evidence that the soul and the mind are the same or that the mind is a component of the soul?

Luk 10:27 He answered, “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’ and ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”

It sounds like the soul is different from the mind, doesn't it?