Divine punishment? Is it needed?

[Saint Steven]

The mind is included under the spirit.

Compare: spirit - soul - body.

And: heart - soul - mind - strength.

Mar 12:30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’

That's an interesting way to present it.
You almost convinced me. - lol

I just noticed that "spirit" is missing from the list in Mark twelve.
And Jesus is quoting, or should I say misquoting?, this scripture from Deuteronomy. The word "mind" is missing in Deuteronomy six. Therefore added to Mark. Why?; I wonder.

Deuteronomy 6:4-5 NIV
Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 5 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 5 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.

 

[Saint Steven]

https://www.zazzle.ca/wheel_of_emot...MIn7b4v5uv9wIVhKjICh1lzgeEEAQYAyABEgJfGvD_BwE

There is no indication that these emotions are produced by the spirit of a human. Animals have emotions as well.

 

[Andrewn]

I just noticed that "spirit" is missing from the list in Mark twelve.
And Jesus is quoting, or should I say misquoting?, this scripture from Deuteronomy. The word "mind" is missing in Deuteronomy six. Therefore added to Mark. Why?; I wonder.

Both Mark and Luke (and Matthew) add the word "mind." Commentators have noted this addition observing that "mind" was added for emphasis while Deuteronomy, written to the Hebrews, understood the "mind" to be included in the "heart," which in turn is part of the "spirit." So, in Deuteronomy, the word "heart" stands for both "mind" and "spirit." No misquote in the NT, only emphasis.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

Compare these verses to the OT:

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law within them and write it in their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Eze 11:19 I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within them. And I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and give them a heart of flesh,

Eze 36:26 Also, I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.

There is no indication that these emotions are produced by the spirit of a human. Animals have emotions as well.

My dog and cats experience some of these emotions: the emotions of the "soul." But they do not experience all the 120 emotions mentioned above.

 

[sawdust]

Is it fair to say that you believe the heart and the mind are components of the soul?

You're a person (soul) who has values (heart) and thinks (mind).

 

[Clare73]

Nor does "communicate vocally".

Vocal communication is not limited to language/speech.
Growling in quite effective communication in the animal world.

 

[Andrewn]

You're a person (soul) who has values (heart) and thinks (mind).

This is almost something I would agree with .

 

[sawdust]

Vocal communication is not limited to language/speech.
Growling in quite effective communication in the animal world.

If you think growling is language there is little more to say.

 

[sawdust]

This is almost something I would agree with .

Except you would say "you're a person" (spirit)? You did say earlier you believe the spirit is the seat of personality. Bit hard to be a person if you don't have a personality.

 

[Clare73]

If you think growling is language there is little more to say.

I think growling is communication, as is language.

I thereby see animals as able to communicate.

It is rationality and abstract thinking that sets man's communication apart from the animals.

 

[sawdust]

I think growling is communication, as is language.

I thereby see animals as able to communicate.

It is rationality and abstract thinking that sets man's communication apart from the animals.

But I wasn't talking about communication, you brought that up not me.

 

[Andrewn]

Except you would say "you're a person" (spirit)? You did say earlier you believe the spirit is the seat of personality. Bit hard to be a person if you don't have a personality.

Actually, in post #472 I wrote: "Soul" is also frequently used for the whole "person" as in saying, "We have 100 souls in church today."

Of course, one famous example for this usage in Gen 2:7.

 

[Saint Steven]

Both Mark and Luke (and Matthew) add the word "mind." Commentators have noted this addition observing that "mind" was added for emphasis while Deuteronomy, written to the Hebrews, understood the "mind" to be included in the "heart," which in turn is part of the "spirit." So, in Deuteronomy, the word "heart" stands for both "mind" and "spirit." No misquote in the NT, only emphasis.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

Compare these verses to the OT:

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law within them and write it in their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Eze 11:19 I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within them. And I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and give them a heart of flesh,

Eze 36:26 Also, I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.


My dog and cats experience some of these emotions: the emotions of the "soul." But they do not experience all the 120 emotions mentioned above.

I think my position is biblically based, but the references are scattered throughout the Bible. And I have none in mind that answer your big questions.

I focused on some of the mechanics (for lack of a better term) of physical life and the afterlife. I'm curious to know how you sort these things out from your perspective.

In this world we have a physical body. In the afterlife our physical body will be left behind and we will have a spiritual body. I attach our individuality to what I am calling the soul. Which would include the mind, will and emotions.

Our mind currently resides in our brain, which I liken to an organic computer hard drive. So the mind is like the data on the hard drive. (brain)

At physical death, the brain stays with the body, but the mind goes with the soul. (individuality - mind, will and emotions)

The soul goes with the spiritual body into the afterlife.

How do you see this?

 

[Clare73]

But I wasn't talking about communication, you brought that up not me.

You brought up language, which I applied in the sense of communication.

 

[Saint Steven]

1 Corinthians 15:42-48 NIV
So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven.

 

[Andrewn]

I think my position is biblically based, but the references are scattered throughout the Bible. And I have none in mind that answer your big questions.

I attach our individuality to what I am calling the soul. Which would include the mind, will and emotions.

I understand how you feel. It is hard to believe that you've been misguided for years, by people you trusted. It's a lot easier to believe that I'm wrong. But investigate the Bible yourself.

I focused on some of the mechanics (for lack of a better term) of physical life and the afterlife. I'm curious to know how you sort these things out from your perspective.

In this world we have a physical body. In the afterlife our physical body will be left behind and we will have a spiritual body.

The soul goes with the spiritual body into the afterlife.

1Co 15:44 it is sown a soulish body, it is raised a spiritual body.

The Apostle Paul calls our physical bodies "psychikos" or "soulish" governed by the soul. Our risen bodies will be "pneumatikos" or "spiritual" governed by the spirit.

Spiritual or Soulish?

Our mind currently resides in our brain, which I liken to an organic computer hard drive. So the mind is like the data on the hard drive. (brain)

At physical death, the brain stays with the body, but the mind goes with the soul. (individuality - mind, will and emotions)

There is enough evidence in the Bible that the soul becomes unconscious / asleep after death. If the mind, will, motives, and emotions were attached to it, then the whole person is unconscious - until the resurrection. I don't believe this.

Christian mortalism - Wikipedia

The original soul sleeper

 

[Saint Steven]

There is enough evidence in the Bible that the soul becomes unconscious / asleep after death. If the mind, will, motives, and emotions were attached to it, then the whole person is unconscious - until the resurrection. I don't believe this.

This is where I think you got off track. Just my opinion, but here's why.

There are 29 reference to "the realm of the dead" in the NIV translation. Also known as Sheol.
BibleGateway - Keyword Search: the realm of the dead

One of those 29 reference is in Ecclesiastes chapter nine.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 NIV
Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

 

[Saint Steven]

1Co 15:44 it is sown a soulish body, it is raised a spiritual body.

The Apostle Paul calls our physical bodies "psychikos" or "soulish" governed by the soul. Our risen bodies will be "pneumatikos" or "spiritual" governed by the spirit.

How does this relate to the spirit we have now?
And are you saying our soul is lost at physical death?
Who do we become at physical death?

 

[Saint Steven]

I understand how you feel. It is hard to believe that you've been misguided for years, by people you trusted. It's a lot easier to believe that I'm wrong. But investigate the Bible yourself.

Again, I start with some basic mechanics. There are two kinds of life and two kinds of death.

Physical life
Physical death
Spiritual life
Spiritual death

 

[Andrewn]

This is where I think you got off track. Just my opinion, but here's why. There are 29 reference to "the realm of the dead" in the NIV translation. Also known as Sheol. BibleGateway - Keyword Search: the realm of the dead One of those 29 reference is in Ecclesiastes chapter nine. Ecclesiastes 9:10 NIV Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

Some of the verses you quoted, and many others, suggest that the soul is unconscious after death and many Church writers over the centuries (including Luther) understood them as such. I stress the fact that the spirit is conscious.

How does this relate to the spirit we have now?

You brought up 1Co 15:44 into the discussion. How do you interpret this verse?

And are you saying our soul is lost at physical death?

No, not at all. The soul is resurrected w/ the body at the 2nd coming of Christ.

Who do we become at physical death?

2Co 5:1 For we know that if the tent, our earthly home, is torn down, we have a building from God—a home not made with human hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling— 3 if indeed, after we have put it on, we will not be found naked.

Is this your understanding, also? How do you interpret these verses?

 

[RickReads]

That's an interesting way to present it.
You almost convinced me. - lol

I just noticed that "spirit" is missing from the list in Mark twelve.
And Jesus is quoting, or should I say misquoting?, this scripture from Deuteronomy. The word "mind" is missing in Deuteronomy six. Therefore added to Mark. Why?; I wonder.

Deuteronomy 6:4-5 NIV
Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 5 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 5 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.

It`s interesting that you think you can correct Jesus. The mind reflects what a person believes in their heart, the way you play with the scriptures is weak sauce.