Divine punishment? Is it needed?

[Andrewn]

The point.of both passages seems obvious. We are all tested by fire. All the goodness in us is preserved (perhaps in the same way salt preserves meat) while all the rubbish (wood, hay, and straw IOW hatred, envy, argumentativeness etc) is burned away. The point is clear: we're all saved but we all have to pass through the fire.

So, God's fire is a consuming fire, not an eternally torturing fire or an annihilating fire. It's a fire that consumes everything wrong in us so that we can live as we were meant to, at peace with one another and God. That is heaven but we all need to experience a sort of hell to get there.

Yes, we all go through trials during this life or after this life. The question, in my mind, is whether there are people who are so strongly against God that no goodness remains after everything that is wrong with them is consumed. I realize that you don't think so.

 

[RileyG]

I am talking about there being no text nor person addressed indicated in your response, it's just hanging out there in thin air.

Oh, excuse me.

 

[Saint Steven]

Yes, we all go through trials during this life or after this life. The question, in my mind, is whether there are people who are so strongly against God that no goodness remains after everything that is wrong with them is consumed. I realize that you don't think so.

UR proponents hear this argument all the time. That there are those who "hate God". Or as you put it, are "strongly against God". And thus "no goodness remains" after judgement/correction.

These people may have been hurt by life circumstance, for which they blame God. Or they actually "hate" the church or a member of the church for some hurt. Even for political reasons, I suppose.

I love to watch restoration videos. I especially like this one. Actually a great channel. Jun's relationship with his cats is amazing.

Of course, there are videos of things in much worse shape than this knife that are restored to like new condition.

I think these are good examples of what God can do with even the worst of us.

 

[Hmm]

Yes, we all go through trials during this life or after this life. The question, in my mind, is whether there are people who are so strongly against God that no goodness remains after everything that is wrong with them is consumed. I realize that you don't think so.

I think the question you pose is the key one. It's hypothetical because we have never encountered anyone in whom all badness has been consumed and only goodness remains, and we have not experienced this in ourselves.

So the question becomes a speculative/philosophical one. If everything wrong in us - our ignorance, fear and self-centredness - is removed, is it a possibility that could we still be against God? My view is that we couldn't. I think that once we truly see how wonderful God is and how our own happiness depends on us being rightly connected with God then we would gladly embrace Him. Scripture says this when it says that we will all one day bow down and confess that Christ is Lord.

It could be argued that we could still be against God even if we know that He is where our greatest happiness lies. But I would say that this would be so irrational and against our own interests that it would be as reasonable for God to overrule this decision as it would be for a father to overrule his child who wants to run across a busy the road - the strawman of God respecting free-will simply doesn't come into either scenario.

 

[Saint Steven]

I think the question you pose is the key one. It's hypothetical because we have never encountered anyone in whom all badness has been consumed and only goodness remains, and we have not experienced this in ourselves.

So the question becomes a speculative/philosophical one. If everything wrong in us - our ignorance, fear and self-centredness - is removed, is it a possibility that could we still be against God? My view is that we couldn't. I think that once we truly see how wonderful God is and how our own happiness depends on us being rightly connected with God then we would gladly embrace Him. Scripture says this when it says that we will all one day bow down and confess that Christ is Lord.

It could be argued that we could still be against God even if we know that He is where our greatest happiness lies. But I would say that this would be so irrational and against our own interests that it would be as reasonable for God to overrule this decision as it would be for a father to overrule his child who wants to run across a busy the road - the strawman of God respecting free-will simply doesn't come into either scenario.

My observation is that running away from God is a full circle. When you come around the last bend, you run right into him again. Then what? - lol

 

[Hmm]

My observation is that running away from God is a full circle. When you come around the last bend, you run right into him again. Then what? - lol

I remember a newspaper article a couple of years ago about a woman in Austria, I think, who was discovered living in a cellar and it transpired that she had been down there ever since a child. She lived with her mother who said that she had gone down to the cellar as a young child to play and had liked it so much that she decided to let her stay there.

I can't help thinking of this story whenever I hear Team Hell's plaintive free will argument that God would respect our choice to go to an eternal hell.

 

[Mark Quayle]

This is not true. The rational part of humans that survives death is frequently referred to as the "spirit." When Jesus was about to die, He said:

Luk 23:46 He cried out, “Father, into your hands I commend my spirit.” And with these words he breathed his last.

We also read:

Ecclesiastes 12:7 And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Job 32:8 But it is the spirit in man, the breath of the Almighty, that makes him understand.

1 Corinthians 2:11 For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

Romans 8:16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

John 4:24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

1 Thessalonians 5:23 Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

James 2:26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

Zechariah 12:1 The burden of the word of the Lord concerning Israel: Thus declares the Lord, who stretched out the heavens and founded the earth and formed the spirit of man within him:

Luke 1:46-47 And Mary said, “My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,

Romans 1:9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I mention you

Ecclesiastes 3:21 Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down into the earth?

Proverbs 20:27 The spirit of man is the lamp of the Lord, searching all his innermost parts.

Numbers 16:22 And they fell on their faces and said, “O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and will you be angry with all the congregation?”

Acts 7:59 And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”

Thanks for that post. It has been some time since I've read several of those verses, and specially in the context of this thread.

Some of these verses may be very relevant to the question of what happens to the lost when they die unrepentant. If the spirit is only the part of a person that God breathed into them, regenerated or not, the soul may be considered the actual person himself, the spirit what makes him alive. I would like to look into this more, as it seems it would speak to all sorts of -ologies. So far, I have not come to a firm conclusion on just what is what in the matter of body, soul and spirit. As things go, haha, it is easier to say what is NOT true, than what IS true.

 

[Mark Quayle]

My observation is that running away from God is a full circle. When you come around the last bend, you run right into him again. Then what? - lol

Well, when I run away, I can only run around the block —I'm not old enough to cross the street yet!

 

[Clare73]

.

 

[Clare73]

Responding to @Andrewn

Click on the vertical arrows to see where it came from. Lol, I just copied and pasted the series, and then killed the browser. Can't seem to resurrect it.

There are none, there is no heading whatsoever on your post, nor on several others lately.

 

[Andrewn]

If the spirit is only the part of a person that God breathed into them, regenerated or not, the soul may be considered the actual person himself, the spirit what makes him alive. I would like to look into this more, as it seems it would speak to all sorts of -ologies. So far, I have not come to a firm conclusion on just what is what in the matter of body, soul and spirit.

Until relatively recently, I believed in tripartite theology: that the person is a spirit + soul + body. Now, I think bipartite theology is the biblical view, which also happened to be Calvin's view. I agree w/ Calvin for once, but not completely.

I will not make arguments for either side. After looking into this more, with your sola scriptura methodology, let me know what you think .

 

[sawdust]

The point is the the spirit is the element that survives death. The soul generally does not survive death in the OT, the Gospels, and Paul's epistles. (I know that the soul survives death in Greek philosophy.)

Only God can destroy the soul and He does so in hell. (Matt.10:28) Men do not have spirits unless they are born from above (Jn.3:3) so if their souls died there would be no need for Sheol, especially the Torment side.

This is because before death, people are not spirits. We are both spirit + flesh.

Animals are also called "living soul" in a lot of verses. In the beginning chapters of Genesis alone, they are called souls in Gen 1:20, 21, 24, 30; 2:19; 9:4, 10, 12, and many many more.

We are body and soul before death unless we are born again then we are spirit, soul and body. It is the soul that makes one conscious. The difference between animals and us are we are made in God's image and therefore have all that is capable in a soul. We are not only conscious but we are self-aware, can think in all it's forms, analytical, creatively, problem solving etc., have a full spectrum of emotion and have volition.

There is much to be said but it is off topic.

 

[sawdust]

There are none, there is no heading whatsoever on your post, nor on several others lately.

You might want to do a health check on your pc Clare as there were quotes and arrows linking back to who Mark was responding to for me.

 

[Oleaster]

you misrepresented the scenarios I offered as if they were supposed to be understood in a non-Christian milieu.

I didn’t intend to misrepresent those scenarios, but to point out what seems to me to be the “root error” of each, all of which do seem to me to have a non-Christian origin. But I'm content to be wrong too.

The Catholic Catechism confirms that salvation is only through Jesus Christ. But it also presents the possibility that unbelievers may be saved. (I can provide quotations but you're quite familiar w/ Catholic theology.) The Catechism does not tell us how and thus it allows speculation. God wants to save people, and only He knows how He will reach the billions of people who do not believe in Christ. Still, our speculation is not harmful so long it is understood as such.

Yes. So my speculation is that, since there is no salvation outside Christ, and since Christ is God and God is love, then one way somebody could be saved without formally recognizing Christ is to nevertheless be found in Him, which is to say, to be found in love. Someone could theoretically trust their Creator and be thankful to Him and strive to love Him in whatever ways are known to them, and strive to love their neighbors, and thus be saved without ever hearing the gospel of Christ. Theoretically. By contrast, someone else could know all there is in the Bible and catechism and yet be damned because they don’t really trust Him or love Him or love their neighbors. Love is key.

Why do you deny the importance of knowledge and pretend that conveying knowledge through evangelism is not a Christian principle in this life?

I don’t deny the importance of knowledge, nor did I mean to pretend that evangelism has no place in Christian life, but only to place knowledge in proper context relative to love. To know what love is (or, in our case, who love is) means nothing unless one actually begins to love. Love without knowledge is greater than knowledge without love. The Pharisees and Sadducees who crucified Christ had much knowledge but little love. The poor fishermen whom Christ chose to be His apostles were ignorant men who loved much.

 

[Clare73]

Thanks for that post. It has been some time since I've read several of those verses, and specially in the context of this thread.
Some of these verses may be very relevant to the question of what happens to the lost when they die unrepentant. If the spirit is only the part of a person that God breathed into them, regenerated or not, the soul may be considered the actual person himself, the spirit what makes him alive.

I would like to look into this more, as it seems it would speak to all sorts of -ologies. So far, I have not come to a firm conclusion on just what is what in the matter of body, soul and spirit. As things go, haha, it is easier to say what is NOT true, than what IS true.

What about our spirit animates our souls which animate our bodies,
and, therefore, our bodies are animated by soul and spirit?

Don't expect much help from the Biblical texts, which present the soul and the spirit as alike in both their nature and in their activities.

 

[Clare73]

You might want to do a health check on your pc Clare as there were quotes and arrows linking back to who Mark was responding to for me.

Yep, I was wondering that. . .thanks.

 

[Saint Steven]

Well, when I run away, I can only run around the block —I'm not old enough to cross the street yet!

And you always end up at home, right? - lol

 

[Andrewn]

So my speculation is that, since there is no salvation outside Christ, and since Christ is God and God is love, then one way somebody could be saved without formally recognizing Christ is to nevertheless be found in Him, which is to say, to be found in love. Someone could theoretically trust their Creator and be thankful to Him and strive to love Him in whatever ways are known to them, and strive to love their neighbors, and thus be saved without ever hearing the gospel of Christ. Theoretically.

This is certainly possible. I still think they would need an introductory course about Christ and his sacrifice. But they may not need the syllabus I was starting to work on after all .

By contrast, someone else could know all there is in the Bible and catechism and yet be damned because they don’t really trust Him or love Him or love their neighbors. Love is key.

And you see no chance / hope for those who do not learn to trust God and love Him and love their neighbors in this life.

I don’t deny the importance of knowledge, nor did I mean to pretend that evangelism has no place in Christian life, but only to place knowledge in proper context relative to love. To know what love is (or, in our case, who love is) means nothing unless one actually begins to love. Love without knowledge is greater than knowledge without love.

Absolutely.

 

[Andrewn]

If everything wrong in us - our ignorance, fear and self-centredness - is removed, is it a possibility that could we still be against God? My view is that we couldn't. I think that once we truly see how wonderful God is and how our own happiness depends on us being rightly connected with God then we would gladly embrace Him. Scripture says this when it says that we will all one day bow down and confess that Christ is Lord.

Yes, this is why I believe / hope in post-mortem progression one way or another.

It could be argued that we could still be against God even if we know that He is where our greatest happiness lies. But I would say that this would be so irrational and against our own interests that it would be as reasonable for God to overrule this decision as it would be for a father to overrule his child who wants to run across a busy the road - the strawman of God respecting free-will simply doesn't come into either scenario.

This scenario I cannot agree with. God wants with mature free will, as far as I understand.

 

[Andrewn]

Only God can destroy the soul and He does so in hell. (Matt.10:28)

I admit that this is one of the rare occasions in the NT where the soul seems to survive the death of the body. But there is manuscript variability and the corresponding verse in Luke reads:

Luk 12:4 ‘So, my friends, I have this to say to you: don’t be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have nothing more they can do. 5 I will show you who to fear: fear the one who starts by killing and then has the right to throw people into Gehenna. Yes, let me tell you, that’s the one to fear!

No mention of "soul" here. So, did Jesus say "soul" or didn't He? And if He did say soul, did He mean the rational soul (which is a Greek concept)? Like all of us, He certainly was familiar with that Greek concept. But, the ancient jewish concept is that the soul is attached to the body and goes with the body to the grave.

Men do not have spirits unless they are born from above (Jn.3:3)

We are body and soul before death unless we are born again then we are spirit, soul and body.

What's your source for the idea that non-christians do not have spirits?

so if their souls died there would be no need for Sheol, especially the Torment side.

You believe in annihilation immediately after death? No resurrection?