Divine punishment? Is it needed?

[Saint Steven]

Is there biblical evidence that the soul and the mind are the same or that the mind is a component of the soul?

Luk 10:27 He answered, “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’ and ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”

It sounds like the soul is different from the mind, doesn't it?

Good question, thanks.
I think these things are hard to separate. (Hebrews 4:12)

How do we - love the Lord our God with all our soul - without involving the others? (heart, strength, mind)

 

[Andrewn]

Good question, thanks.
I think these things are hard to separate. (Hebrews 4:12)

This is not the first time I hear that the soul and the mind are the same. I've heard this for years and @sawdust has been saying the same thing.

Why do Christians repeat claims that have no proof in the Bible?

 

[sawdust]

The purpose of the human spirit is that humans be spiritual beings

Exactly!

That requires a human spirit from the get go. . .no spirit = no human, only animal.

Wrong. Our humanity is in our soul. It is created in the image and likeness of God, invisible and having personhood. No spirit = unspiritual. Animals don't have spirits, they are not, and never can be, spiritual beings. Animals have soul (nephesh) but it is basic and dependent on matter, hence when they die they cease to exist. Our soul is created at the highest level and is not matter dependent hence, it can only be destroyed by God who is the creator of our soul.

We inherit both a human nature that is fallen, and a human spirit without capacity to participate in divine life.

We do not inherit a human spirit from our parents. How many times must you be told! Flesh gives birth to flesh and Spirit gives birth to spirit. The only thing we get from our parents are our bodies, our flesh and that contains the sin nature.

And not being able to participate in divine life, man therefore cannot comprehend the things of God
(1 Corinthians 2:14) until that particular capacity is restored, in its second birth from above.
(John 3:3-7)

Christ does not say you must be restored from above, He says you must be born from above.

As for the rest of your post, believe what you will Clare. Maybe one day you will learn the difference between being born and being resurrected.

 

[Saint Steven]

Why do Christians repeat claims that have no proof in the Bible?

In my experience, Christians do it all the time. - lol

I'm exaggerating, but you get the idea.

 

[Saint Steven]

This is not the first time I hear that the soul and the mind are the same. I've heard this for years and @sawdust has been saying the same thing.

Why do Christians repeat claims that have no proof in the Bible?

To be clear, I'm not limiting the soul to the mind. I think the first thing I wrote about it was that our soul is our personal identity, which is, of course, tied to our mind.

If you got a brain transplant... who would you be? - lol

From post #446

As I understand it, the soul is our individuality. Some have described it as our mind, will and emotions.

 

[Saint Steven]

This is not the first time I hear that the soul and the mind are the same. I've heard this for years and @sawdust has been saying the same thing.

Why do Christians repeat claims that have no proof in the Bible?

I think there are a range of opinions about what the soul is. Do these NT references match your understanding?

1. John 12:27
   “Now my soul is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour’? No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour.
   
   
2. 1 Thessalonians 5:23
   May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
   
   
3. Hebrews 4:12
   For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
   
   
4. Hebrews 6:19
   We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain,
   
   
5. 1 Peter 1:9
   for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls.
   
   
6. 1 Peter 2:11
   Living Godly Lives in a Pagan Society
   Dear friends, I urge you, as foreigners and exiles, to abstain from sinful desires, which wage war against your soul.
   
   
7. 1 Peter 2:25
   For “you were like sheep going astray,” but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.
   
   
8. 2 Peter 2:8
   (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)—
   
   
9. 3 John 1:2
   Dear friend, I pray that you may enjoy good health and that all may go well with you, even as your soul is getting along well.
10. 
    
11. Revelation 6:9
    When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.
    
    
12. Revelation 20:4
    I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

[sawdust]

This is not the first time I hear that the soul and the mind are the same. I've heard this for years and @sawdust has been saying the same thing.

No I haven't. I haven't said a word about the mind. You asked about the heart.

Just as the body is composed of different organs to do particular jobs, so too the soul is comprised of different areas. The heart is where you keep your treasure, what you value in life. The mind refers to your thinking. Your soul refers to you as a person.

Why do Christians repeat claims that have no proof in the Bible?

Most probably for the same reason some Christians ignore the context of what's written.

The life that is in the blood is referring to animals. If humans were included then Adam would have been a living soul before God breathed into Him unless you think God formed Adam's body without blood.

 

[Clare73]

Our humanity is in our soul.

Indeed, but our spirituality, which distinguishes us from the rest of animate nature, is in our spirit.

Without our spirits, we are not spiritual human beings, we are only animate human beings as distinct from animate tiger beings, animate bear beings, and all other animate beings.

 

[sawdust]

Indeed, but our spirituality, which distinguishes us from the rest of animate nature, is in our spirit.

Without our spirits, we are not spiritual human beings, we are only animate human beings as distinct from animate tiger beings, animate bear beings, and all other animate beings.

No, what makes us different is being created in the image and likeness of God. The base characteristic that distinguishes us from animals is language. The Lord Jesus Christ is the Word. Think about it.

 

[Clare73]

No, what makes us different is being created in the image and likeness of God.
The base characteristic that distinguishes us from animals is language.

Actually, the distinguishing characteristic is abstract reasoning, for animals communicate vocally.

The Lord Jesus Christ is the Word. Think about it.

"The Word" (Logos) of John 1:1-14 does not mean language or speech.

Logos in Greek philosophy was the First Cause, the great Intelligence and Reason behind the Universe.
John, in choosing to call Jesus the Word, opens his gospel with the astounding claim that the despised and crucified man, Jesus of Nazareth, is the eternal Logos, source of all wisdom and power, who became flesh to reveal God to us.

"Word" is used in reference to Jesus nowhere else in the NT.

 

[sawdust]

"The Word" (Logos) of John 1:1-14 does not mean language or speech.

Nor does "communicate vocally".

 

[Andrewn]

To be clear, I'm not limiting the soul to the mind. I think the first thing I wrote about it was that our soul is our personal identity, which is, of course, tied to our mind.

I understood you correctly. This is why I wrote, "Is there biblical evidence that the soul and the mind are the same or that the mind is a component of the soul?"

I think there are a range of opinions about what the soul is. Do these NT references match your understanding?

Thank you for the quotations. These are lovely verses to meditate on but they say nothing about the mind.

John 12:27
“Now my soul is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour’? No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour.

The primary human psychological functions are cognition, volition, motivation, and affect (feeling or emotion). The quoted verse shows that the soul is the seat of some emotions.

1 Thessalonians 5:23
May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Spirit, soul, and body are components of human beings. Not necessarily all the components. Compare this to the 4 components mentioned in Luk 10:27.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

The soul, spirit, and heart are components of human beings.

Hebrews 6:19
We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain,

The soul's anchor is the hope of salvation expressed by God in his promise to Abraham. This hope comforts the soul, which is a seat of emotions.

1 Peter 1:9
for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

Our souls will also be saved at the resurrection. "Soul" is also frequently used for the whole "person" as in saying, "We have 100 souls in church today."

1 Peter 2:11
Living Godly Lives in a Pagan Society
Dear friends, I urge you, as foreigners and exiles, to abstain from sinful desires, which wage war against your soul.

Fleshly desires wage war against our soul. They cause emotional upheaval inside us and perturb our inner peace.

1 Peter 2:25
For “you were like sheep going astray,” but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

What comfort and peace we have knowing that Christ is the shepherd and overseer of our souls. The Apostle Peter seems to like to word "soul." This reminds me of an Assyrian friend, God bless her soul, who spoke Aramaic (the language of Jesus and Peter and John) and used the word "soul" quite often .

2 Peter 2:8
(for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)—

It tormented Lot's soul to look at the sin in his community. We may share a similar experience.

3 John 1:2
Dear friend, I pray that you may enjoy good health and that all may go well with you, even as your soul is getting along well.

John prays for well-being for his friend's body and soul. Again, stressing the fact that the soul is the seat of emotions.

Revelation 6:9
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.

In this vision, Christ is represented as a lamb who opens a seal on a scroll. As the seal is opened, John sees souls (feels the emotions) of those who had been martyred for Christ. Their souls are under the altar of incense, which means that the prayers they prayed continue to exist in the presence of the Lamb.

Revelation 20:4
I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Again, John sees / feels the emotions of those who had been beheaded. But in Revelation, written later to churches in Asia Minor, John could be using Greek philosophical terminology and by "souls" he meant what the rest of the Bible would call "spirits." This is the traditional interpretation, where spirits of the saints are now reigning w/ Christ in Paradise.


Conclusion: I enjoyed meditating on these verses. But could not find any suggestion that the soul is seat of the mind, let alone that the soul is the mind. It is sad that we got this notion from Greek philosophy and most Christians heard it so often from Christian pastors that they thought it is a biblical concept.

 

[Andrewn]

No I haven't. I haven't said a word about the mind. You asked about the heart.

Just as the body is composed of different organs to do particular jobs, so too the soul is comprised of different areas. The heart is where you keep your treasure, what you value in life. The mind refers to your thinking. Your soul refers to you as a person.

Is it fair to say that you believe the heart and the mind are components of the soul?

 

[Saint Steven]

I understood you correctly. This is why I wrote, "Is there biblical evidence that the soul and the mind are the same or that the mind is a component of the soul?"

Thank you for the quotations. These are lovely verses to meditate on but they say nothing about the mind.

Perhaps you are being too literal?

Let's look at the first one from post #466. (quoted below)
How is it that a "soul" could be troubled? That sounds like worry.
Troubling thoughts happen where? (the mind)

John 12:27
“Now my soul is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour’? No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour.

Should we continue through the list, or can you see it now?
Great discussion, BTW.

--- EDIT ---

Oops, sorry. I see that you already responded to each one.

 

[Saint Steven]

The primary human psychological functions are cognition, volition, motivation, and affect (feeling or emotion). The quoted verse shows that the soul is the seat of some emotions.

It seems that supports my view. Soul = mind, will and emotions. (and personal identity, of course)

Saint Steven said: ↑
John 12:27
“Now my soul is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour’? No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour.

 

[Saint Steven]

Spirit, soul, and body are components of human beings. Not necessarily all the components. Compare this to the 4 components mentioned in Luk 10:27.

Doesn't that mean that the mind is included under one of these categories?
Which one?
Unless the mind is off-the-hook in terms of being kept blameless?

Saint Steven said: ↑
1 Thessalonians 5:23
May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Andrewn]

It seems that supports my view. Soul = mind, will and emotions. (and personal identity, of course)

Saint Steven said: ↑
John 12:27
“Now my soul is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour’? No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour.

No, it doesn't. I agreed that the soul is seat of emotions but not mind or will.

Doesn't that mean that the mind is included under one of these categories?
Which one?
Unless the mind is off-the-hook in terms of being kept blameless?

Saint Steven said: ↑
1 Thessalonians 5:23
May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The mind is included under the spirit.

Compare: spirit - soul - body.

And: heart - soul - mind - strength.

Mar 12:30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’

 

[Saint Steven]

The soul's anchor is the hope of salvation expressed by God in his promise to Abraham. This hope comforts the soul, which is a seat of emotions.

Our souls will also be saved at the resurrection. "Soul" is also frequently used for the whole "person" as in saying, "We have 100 souls in church today."

Doesn't that fit the individual identity aspect I am promoting?


Saint Steven said: ↑
Hebrews 6:19
We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain,
The soul's anchor is the hope of salvation expressed by God in his promise to Abraham. This hope comforts the soul, which is a seat of emotions.

Saint Steven said: ↑
1 Peter 1:9
for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

 

[Saint Steven]

No, it doesn't. I agreed that the soul is seat of emotions but not mind or will.

Please name three emotions that are not produced by the mind. Thanks.

 

[Andrewn]

Please name three emotions that are not produced by the mind. Thanks.

https://www.zazzle.ca/wheel_of_emot...MIn7b4v5uv9wIVhKjICh1lzgeEEAQYAyABEgJfGvD_BwE