Divine punishment? Is it needed?

[public hermit]

I am curious of any doctrines about divine punishment, specifically as related to the afterlife, but in general, too.

I'll throw out a couple.

Anselm: Anselm argues the sin is not only disobedience, but it also dishonors God. Sin, therefore, incurs a double debt (disobedience and dishonor) that one must repay or for which one must be punished. He explains why punishment is needed. Punishment subjects the human creature, thereby putting them back in their place, which restores God's honor. So, punishment restores God's honor.

Calvin: Calvin, ever the lawyer, said sin makes us criminals, essentially. Criminals must be punished. Sin incurs divine wrath, therefore, God must punish us. Of course, God punishes Jesus in our place so we don't have to be punished. He, too, will talk about punishment putting us back in our proper place.

Is that what divine punishment does? Is it a release valve for divine wrath? Does punishment restore God's honor? Are there any better ideas out there of what punishment is or does? Is divine punishment necessary? If so, why?

(The poll specifically concerns unrepentant sin at death so we can avoid wasting time getting to the point)

 

[public hermit]

For Aquinas, punishment settles a debt or functions as a remedy. I think there is this idea that punishment can be cathartic, but obviously that's not the case for those punished eternally.

Aquinas has that lame argument that sin against God is infinite and deserves infinite punishment. Obviously, God can't handle it and must take it out on God's own creation. Strange.

 

[Sabertooth]

I think that it is the natural (though clearly not preferred) consequence of sin in the presence of Holiness.

Even with God's favor, Moses was at risk for death in his unredeemed state [Exodus 33:18-23].

 

[public hermit]

I think that it is the natural (though clearly not preferred) consequence of sin in the presence of Holiness.

Even with God's favor, Moses was at risk for death in his unredeemed state [Exodus 33:18-23].

That makes a bit more sense, perhaps. It's not punishment, per se, but a natural outcome. So, it's not punishment; it just feels really bad like punishment, I guess. But is it cathartic or just never-ending?

 

[Andrewn]

But is it cathartic or just never-ending?

I don't see how God destroying a major portion of his creation forever makes sense. People who reject God, through their behavior or by denying his existence, deserve correction. But the Bible seems silent about the mechanism of correction. This silence gives rise to concluding that the punishment is never-ending. There are hints in the NT that the punishment may be limited, at least in some cases. But the mechanism of correction is never stated.

Advocates of ultimate reconciliation are not interested in speculating about the mechanism, perhaps out of fear of retribution because speculations by definition are unbiblical.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I am curious of any doctrines about divine punishment, specifically as related to the afterlife, but in general, too.

I'll throw out a couple.

Anselm: Anselm argues the sin is not only disobedience, but it also dishonors God. Sin, therefore, incurs a double debt (disobedience and dishonor) that one must repay or for which one must be punished. He explains why punishment is needed. Punishment subjects the human creature, thereby putting them back in their place, which restores God's honor. So, punishment restores God's honor.

Calvin: Calvin, ever the lawyer, said sin makes us criminals, essentially. Criminals must be punished. Sin incurs divine wrath, therefore, God must punish us. Of course, God punishes Jesus in our place so we don't have to be punished. He, too, will talk about punishment putting us back in our proper place.

Is that what divine punishment does? Is it a release valve for divine wrath? Does punishment restore God's honor? Are there any better ideas out there of what punishment is or does? Is divine punishment necessary? If so, why?

(The poll specifically concerns unrepentant sin at death so we can avoid wasting time getting to the point)

I'm going with "other" as my answer, but the way I arrive at my view is a little different than the [supposed] traditional one which we hear so much about, and it's part of the reason that I lean toward Annihilationism.

For me, the particular situation you speak of is contingent upon a person's death having already taken place and it becomes, rather than a mere case of restoring God's honor or paying for sins, a matter of failure on the part of the sinner to apprehend God's Grace and Mercy through the New Covenant in Christ.

And so, in sum: he fails to secure (i.e. to lay hold of) that which God has provided.

 

[Mr. M]

That makes a bit more sense, perhaps. It's not punishment, per se, but a natural outcome. So, it's not punishment; it just feels really bad like punishment, I guess. But is it cathartic or just never-ending?

The irony of God is that His Mercy feels like punishment, until
we rightly comprehend the result, without such loving kindness.
Hebrews 12:11

 

[Pavel Mosko]

I guess I'm going with the other. Although that does quite represent my viewpoint. The analogy of the Sufi Blind men and the elephant is my general position when it comes to these mysteries of the World beyond.

Their are certainly passages that speak of God's wrath, as well as the fiery gehenna. But there are passages which speak of things like being cast into outer darkness etc. I think the Eastern Orthodox River of Fire view is very interesting, as far as reconciling certain paradoxes and conflicts in a lot of the Western Hell theology (Having an Omnipresent God absent from Hell, not to mention a God that is perfect Fatherly love etc. being more wrathful and vengeful than an imperfect earthly father).

I guess I tend to see this more in terms of people opting out salvation, and some of that comes from free will. The whole thing remind me of one of my old psychology professor's that did this bonding therapy with severe autistic kids. In the therapy you embrace them tightly, for them to hopefully get use to what the rest of us get use and enjoy as infants, while the autistic kids find the whole thing very noxious. That kind is what Hell/Heaven is like with the River of fire view of the afterlife, it is a joy for those who are in communion with God but a nightmare for the other folks.

Of course I am aware of the other points of view, especially folks claiming to have near death experiences and claim to be spared from a literal fiery hell.... But that sort of thing is also why this stuff is a Mysterion, and it may not be possible to have a fully orbed cohesive theory of hell that fits everything and resolves all the conflicts other than the realizing that everything that is true points to something complex, multisided, like the Blind men and the Elephant parable.

 

[public hermit]

I don't see how God destroying a major portion of his creation forever makes sense. People who reject God, through their behavior or by denying his existence, deserve correction. But the Bible seems silent about the mechanism of correction. This silence gives rise to either concluding that the punishment is never-ending. There are hints in the NT that the punishment may be limited, at least in some cases. But the mechanism of correction is never stated.

Advocates of ultimate reconciliation are not interested in speculating about the mechanism, perhaps out of fear of retribution because speculations by definition are unbiblical.

What do you think the mechanism of correction is?

 

[Sabertooth]

But is it cathartic or just never-ending?

God does not apologize for His Justice, but it coexists with His Love.
Jesus' death on the Cross satisfied both.

 

[public hermit]

And so, in sum: he fails to secure (i.e. to lay hold of) that which God has provided.

So it's not punishment, per se, but a failure to secure life or blessedness? Is punishment a metaphor for that experience, maybe?

 

[public hermit]

God does not apologize for His Justice, but it coexists with His Love.
Jesus' death on the Cross satisfied both.

No apologies needed, but it seems God is in the restoration/redemption business until God's not. But I take your point as saying-no- punishment is not restorative but simply everlasting pain that is the unavoidable consequence of the clash between God's greatness and human sin. God just can't help it, I guess.

 

[Andrewn]

What do you think the mechanism of correction is?

LOL. the NT talks about fire, but I doubt very much that that is literal. There are publicly known speculations about this in LDS and JW circles. Perhaps I should be smart and keep my speculations to myself .

 

[public hermit]

That kind is what Hell/Heaven is like with the River of fire view of the afterlife, it is a joy for those who are in communion with God but a nightmare for the other folks.

I think this makes sense. Everyone is at the same "place" but it's experienced differently depending. I think, in this case, punishment is basically a metaphor communicating that the experience of some in the divine presence might be painful.

 

[public hermit]

The irony of God is that His Mercy feels like punishment, until
we rightly comprehend the result, without such loving kindness.
Hebrews 12:11

Good point. I think there are two general ideas.
1. Punishment is cathartic; it heals.
2. Punishment is retributive; pays back a debt.

We might add 3. Punishment deters evil. But that function has nothing much to do with the one actually being punished.

 

[Sabertooth]

God just can't help it, I guess.

Even if there were no "fire" in the Lake of Fire, a willful separation from God would be a separation from all of His care & virtues, like

• love,
• joy,
• peace,
• gentleness &
• goodness.

Absence of those in such a place would be

• selfishness,
• misery,
• anxiety,
• harshness &
• treachery.

That is Hell enough, by itself.

 

[public hermit]

Even if there were no "fire" in the Lake of Fire, a willful separation from God would be a separation from all of His care & virtues, like

• love,
• joy,
• peace,
• gentleness &
• goodness.

Absence of those in such a place would be

• selfishness,
• misery,
• anxiety,
• harshness &
• treachery.

That is Hell enough, by itself.

That sounds like where we're at right now. So punishment is further removal from the divine presence. It's interesting that some will say punishment is being further removed from the divine presence, which is suffering. Others will say it's a more direct experience of the divine presence, a presence for which one is ill suited, which is suffering. The difference is, usually, the first group supports ECT and the latter UR. Both allow for punishment, one for retribution and the other for healing

 

[Mr. M]

I am curious of any doctrines about divine punishment, specifically as related to the afterlife, but in general, too.

These doctrines appear symptomatic of man wanting
to condense into a single, concise, yet oversimplified
explanation. We are given "all things that pertain to
life and godliness", and must be comprehended as
"all in all".
For instance, we generally speak of Christ
dying for our sins, but to fully comprehend,
can this be left unattended?
Isaiah 53:1 Who hath believed our report?
and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed......
Undesirable, bore our griefs,
carried our sorrows,
wounded for our transgressions,
bruised for our iniquities,
oppressed and afflicted....

Reading the entirety of this chapter
sets my frame of mind to have the
audacity to attempt comprehending
the immensity of what Christ took on.
When I consider the psychic damage
that I have afflicted upon others by a
simple lack of consideration, how could
I suggest a worthy punishment for
things that are too high for me?
Psalms 145:
8 The Lord is gracious and full of compassion,
Slow to anger and great in mercy.
9 The Lord is good to all,
And His tender mercies are over all His works.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

So it's not punishment, per se, but a failure to secure life or blessedness? Is punishment a metaphor for that experience, maybe?

Y'know, it's funny that you ask these questions, not because they are funny but because something like them was also posed to me by the person I last called 'pastor.' And I remember we were at a coffee shop having some brunch, and we were having a discussion during which I hinted that I lean toward Annihilationism. In that dialogue he kind of surprised me when he gently asked, and did so with a slight smirk, "So, you don't think a person should be punished for sins (or crime)? Where's the punishment"?

For a moment there, he had me thinking a thought about the nature of God's justice that I hadn't really thought about before. Somehow, though, it suddenly came to my mind to retort, "So, you don't think the Death Penalty counts as punishment? Having your life removed isn't enough?"

In reflection of that discussion with my former pastor and however erroneous it may be, I still tend to think that those who die unrepentantly essentially but not necessarily place themselves at a risk for being further separated from partaking of the Tree of Life, which I take to be a metaphor or symbol for God's ongoing Providence and Love toward us in Christ.

However, being resistent as I am to subscribing to any kind of hard Systematic Theology, I leave the matter of spiritual death as an open case. I think it'll be up to the Lord to sort out just how badly any one person "failed" in reachng out to Jesus upon his/her death.

 

[public hermit]

These doctrines appear symptomatic of man wanting
to condense into a single, concise, yet oversimplified
explanation. We are given "all things that pertain to
life and godliness", and must be comprehended as
"all in all".
For instance, we generally speak of Christ
dying for our sins, but to fully comprehend,
can this be left unattended?
Isaiah 53:1 Who hath believed our report?
and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed......
Undesirable, bore our griefs,
carried our sorrows,
wounded for our transgressions,
bruised for our iniquities,
oppressed and afflicted..

I agree that the ones given in the OP are woefully inadequate. Question: if Christ bore our sorrows and was wounded for our transgressions, isn't that sufficient? Does there need to be more punishments? Why? Was his suffering and death not sufficient in itself? Do you see what I'm saying? What is the extra punishment for? It doesn't heal if it's eternal. Is God that angry that forever wrath must be poured out. Doesn't that sound ridiculous?