Divine punishment? Is it needed?

[GenemZ]

I know. It's God's choice. God chooses some for eternal condemnation. God can save all but doesn't.

God in His omniscience knows all who will believe in Him.

God chose from out of all He knew would believe to have some born in the age of the gentiles. Then the age of the Jews. The church age.. And, during the Tribulation period.

For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy
and blameless in his sight. Eph 1:4​

It does not say that God chose us to believe. It tells us that God chose which believers were to become the Bride of Christ. Who will be "in Him."

Where was Eve before the Lord put Adam in a deep sleep? In Adam.. in the body of Adam. She was to be bone of his bones and flesh of his flesh.

Just as the woman was hidden in Adam before she was revealed? So it is now is with the Church, the "body of Christ." The Bride will be revealed when the Resurrection takes place! We will become bone of his bones and glorious flesh of His glorious body!

For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy
and blameless in his sight. Eph 1:4​

That is what He chose us for "in Christ." Not to save us. But chose for what was to become of us after we believed!

Not all believers were chosen for the same purpose. Moses was not chosen to be as the Bride of Christ. Neither was David! They will be resurrected for the new Israel on the new earth.

It was never a choice of God on who to save. The choice was about what to do with those who He knew will believe.

grace and peace.......

 

[GenemZ]

I too was calling to question the motive to "punish" since this comes from a childish understanding of things.

Purification is necessary, but is being given a bath punishment?

 

[public hermit]

Strange then, that you would have a problem with that

I find it strange you don't.

can't gather all the details into that one envelope, as if he intends the same end for everyone

Why not?

What is the telos ("chief end") of humanity? It is to glorify and enjoy God forever (Westminster Shorter Catechism). There it is; one divine intention for all humanity. Of course, not all enjoy God forever. Therefore, assuming that is humanity's telos, the divine intention for some does not obtain

I'm not pulling these things out of the air. If you don't like the conclusions I'm drawing, that's fine, but these are legitimate questions that are worthy of discussion.

I don't believe that we are all created in the divine image for the purpose of all of us being united with God

Then we disagree on a point that is going to have ramifications for how we see this issue.

And their squandering of the fact of being made in the image of God is just one of their many sins

That's everybody's sin, and it's unavoidable since sin is a power from which we need to be freed. Where we seem to disagree is whether or not it is possible for God to save all. You say it's not. I say it is. Not only do I think it's possible, but it's highly probable given humanity's telos and divine sovereignty. I think that's the most reasonable conclusion.

You say God is unwilling to do that. I say God is willing and can.

You ignore what I think I already said to you, but maybe it was in response to someone else: 1 John 2:2 refers to "the whole world" because there are none to whom the principle does not apply, that only Christ Himself is the atoning sacrifice. There is no salvation in any other

Maybe you said it, I don't recall.

So the principle applies to everyone but it's not realized for everyone. Who ensures it's not realized? God. I know that seems a reasonable situation for you. I disagree. At least those who hold freedom as the highest value absolve God of some responsibility for eternal condemnation, or they try. Your position is as I said, God created them for never ending torment, and there's just no way God will save them.

you would have us believe he means that all who ever lived have had their sins atoned for

I believe it should be on the table as a live possibility, yes, especially if God is sovereign and if God is love.

Conflict between what Christ says and Scripture?

Yes. We can disagree.

. I have thought well of you.

Yeah, I'm catching all the ad hominems. I get that this is a touchy subject. I think eternal condemnation and torment needs to be critiqued for reasons I've given. Either God is unwilling or unable to do otherwise. I don't find those to be satisfactory results. I believe God is both willing and able to save all. You have not done much to convince me otherwise, which is fine. I don't think less of you on account that we disagree.

 

[GenemZ]

Some place how they feel on a matter above what the Word declares to be so. In doing so? They wish to cling to their own way of thinking. That one, though saved, could not follow Jesus for long.

"Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Whoever wants to be my disciple
must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. For
whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their
life for me will find it." ​

 

[Mark Quayle]

I too was calling to question the motive to "punish" since this comes from a childish understanding of things.

Purification is necessary, but is being given a bath punishment?

So the LOF is "being given a bath'?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Mark Quayle said: ↑
You continue to look at it from Man's POV, and, in fact, using words vaguely, such as "cannot be saved". You need to qualify that, because as you use it, it implies powerlessness on God's part. It is not a question of God's ability to save, but simply God's choice, and God's predestination, God's hidden will.

Public Hermit responded, (I think, as though to present my (MQ) POV): "I know. It's God's choice. God chooses some for eternal condemnation. God can save all but doesn't."

Mark Quayle said: ↑
Strange then, that you would have a problem with that

I find it strange you don't.

Strange, because you assume God must live up to your notions of Love, when Scripture presents quite a different picture. But I'm repeating myself...

Why not?

What is the telos ("chief end") of humanity? It is to glorify and enjoy God forever (Westminster Shorter Catechism). There it is; one divine intention for all humanity. Of course, not all enjoy God forever. Therefore, assuming that is humanity's telos, the divine intention for some does not obtain

I'm not pulling these things out of the air. If you don't like the conclusions I'm drawing, that's fine, but these are legitimate questions that are worthy of discussion.

Then we disagree on a point that is going to have ramifications for how we see this issue.

That's everybody's sin, and it's unavoidable since sin is a power from which we need to be freed. Where we seem to disagree is whether or not it is possible for God to save all. You say it's not. I say it is. Not only do I think it's possible, but it's highly probable given humanity's telos and divine sovereignty. I think that's the most reasonable conclusion.

You say God is unwilling to do that. I say God is willing and can.

Maybe you said it, I don't recall.

So the principle applies to everyone but it's not realized for everyone. Who ensures it's not realized? God. I know that seems a reasonable situation for you. I disagree. At least those who hold freedom as the highest value absolve God of some responsibility for eternal condemnation, or they try. Your position is as I said, God created them for never ending torment, and there's just no way God will save them.

I believe it should be on the table as a live possibility, yes, especially if God is sovereign and if God is love.

Yes. We can disagree.

Yeah, I'm catching all the ad hominems. I get that this is a touchy subject. I think eternal condemnation and torment needs to be critiqued for reasons I've given. Either God is unwilling or unable to do otherwise. I don't find those to be satisfactory results. I believe God is both willing and able to save all. You have not done much to convince me otherwise, which is fine. I don't think less of you on account that we disagree.

Nah. I'm just repeating myself. Yes, we can disagree. And we do. I'm hoping against hope that you have not adopted Universalism, but are just testing it.

 

[Andrewn]

Probably for the best?

Function of the soul

 

[Gregory Thompson]

So the LOF is "being given a bath'?

The lake of fire is for purification. Some purification takes longer than others, but to depict God as a petty human who holds a grudge and is unable to forgive for all time, just doesn't sound like the Father Jesus spoke about. Besides, all judgment was entrusted to the Son who said on the cross, forgive them.

 

[Andrewn]

As @Clare73 says, 'desire' and 'will' are not in all cases the same thing.

1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

The word translated "desires" is "thelo" and it means "wills."

 

[GenemZ]

The lake of fire is for purification. Some purification takes longer than others, but to depict God as a petty human who holds a grudge and is unable to forgive for all time, just doesn't sound like the Father Jesus spoke about. Besides, all judgment was entrusted to the Son who said on the cross, forgive them.

The Fire of the Lords *evaluation* of the saints is for purification for living in eternity.

You are getting one fire confused for the other fire.

1 Cor 3:11-15 - The Fire of the Evaluation of the saints is to burn off DEAD WORKS out of believers who followed false notions and doctrines to live and think by.

For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames."
​

It says that believers, though all their dead works after their salvation will be burned up, they will remain saved from the fate of the unbeliever! There will be no need for torments in the Fire forever! Because? They believe in Jesus.

 

[GenemZ]

1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

The word translated "desires" is "thelo" and it means "wills."

And, the Lord "willed" that Adam would not eat from the wrong tree.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

The Fire of the Lords *evaluation* of the saints is for purification for living in eternity.

You are getting one fire confused for the other fire.

1 Cor 3:11-15 - The Fire of the Evaluation of the saints is to burn off DEAD WORKS out of believers who followed false notions and doctrines to live and think by.

For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames."
​

It says that believers, though all their dead works after their salvation will be burned up, they will remain saved from the fate of the unbeliever! There will be no need for torments in the Fire forever! Because? They believe in Jesus.

It's one lake of fire. Everyone, citizen and foreigner is tried by it.

 

[Hmm]

You are getting one fire confused for the other fire.

Perhaps you can clarify it for us then. How many fires are we talking about and what are the differences between them all? I'll send you feedback as to whether you have resolved my own confusion (which I wasn't aware I have but realise I must have if you say so).

 

[Mark Quayle]

The lake of fire is for purification. Some purification takes longer than others, but to depict God as a petty human who holds a grudge and is unable to forgive for all time, just doesn't sound like the Father Jesus spoke about. Besides, all judgment was entrusted to the Son who said on the cross, forgive them.

Who is depicting God as a petty human who holds a grudge and is unable to forgive? When he said "forgive them" what was he talking about? and how did the Father forgive them (assuming he did, of course)?

 

[Mark Quayle]

1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

The word translated "desires" is "thelo" and it means "wills."

It also means "desires", but that is irrelevant.

You apparently don't get the point. There is a difference between what God plans to happen, and what God might wish was possible. To put it a little further into Anthropomorphic sense: {when God wanted a "dwelling place" for himself, and planned it into existence, it involved great sadness and pain —the death of the Son of God. He might wish (desire, also called 'will') that the pain and sadness was avoidable, but it was not, if what he planned was to come to pass.}

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Who is depicting God as a petty human who holds a grudge and is unable to forgive?

Eternal Torment is all about that.

When he said "forgive them" what was he talking about? and how did the Father forgive them (assuming he did, of course)?

All judgment is entrusted to the son, so it's up to Jesus to forgive now, and that's what He does. And that's the point.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Eternal Torment is all about that.


All judgment is entrusted to the son, so it's up to Jesus to forgive now, and that's what He does. And that's the point.

If eternal torment is exactly as described, threatened and claimed to be the the after death experience of huge numbers of humans, in the Scriptures, and you are not one of them, you will see things very differently. God is altogether just to do what he says he will do, and has not at all diminished his meaning of LOVE to do so.

How, exactly, does the Son forgive? That is, how is the person forgiven? Do you claim no settlement of a debt? Or is their sin forgiven by his substitution in their place? Or what?

And is your logic (that since judgement is entrusted to the Son, therefore it means Jesus is the one who forgives, as opposed to how things apparently used to be, where the Father was the one who forgave) Biblical? I'm not asking whether Jesus has the authority to forgive. I'm asking about your logic.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

If eternal torment is exactly as described, threatened and claimed to be the the after death experience of huge numbers of humans, in the Scriptures, and you are not one of them, you will see things very differently. God is altogether just to do what he says he will do, and has not at all diminished his meaning of LOVE to do so.

How, exactly, does the Son forgive? That is, how is the person forgiven? Do you claim no settlement of a debt? Or is their sin forgiven by his substitution in their place? Or what?

And is your logic (that since judgement is entrusted to the Son, therefore it means Jesus is the one who forgives, as opposed to how things apparently used to be, where the Father was the one who forgave) Biblical? I'm not asking whether Jesus has the authority to forgive. I'm asking about your logic.

My logic, start with the sermon on the mount declared as a foundation to build the house on, and read the rest of scripture based on that.

 

[Saint Steven]

All judgment is entrusted to the son, so it's up to Jesus to forgive now, and that's what He does. And that's the point.

Reminded me of this one.

John 20:23 NIV
If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Reminded me of this one.

John 20:23 NIV
If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

This is kind of why the anathemas of those early church councils really creep me out. I still see the fallout of them to this day.