Divine punishment? Is it needed?

[Andrewn]

Their are certainly passages that speak of God's wrath, as well as the fiery gehenna. But there are passages which speak of things like being cast into outer darkness etc. I think the Eastern Orthodox River of Fire view is very interesting,

In EO theology, post-mortem progression is possible in the sense that people can get to believe in Hades and progress to Paradise. This is based on the Harrowing of Hell and is not completely unlike LDS belief in this respect.

 

[public hermit]

"So, don't you don't think a person should be punished for sins (or crime)? Where's the punishment"

Yeah, that's an interesting response. It's like: Wait, let me get some retribution in before we annihilate. I definitely think annihilation makes more sense than ECT; it's more merciful.

I think what your saying makes sense, especially if we recognize that the idea of an "eternal soul" is more a Greek idea than one natural to 1st century Judeans. We are not eternal beings. We might be everlasting, but definitely not eternal. And, perhaps we don't have to be everlasting, either.

 

[Andrewn]

Absence of those in such a place would be

• selfishness,
• misery,
• anxiety,
• harshness &
• treachery.

That is Hell enough, by itself.

This is true. But the question is whether it's temporary or endless.

 

[Jipsah]

God just can't help it, I guess.

The "Poor God" concept. "Poor God,He's so sad that all those people are going to be tortured forever, but there's nothing He can do.

 

[public hermit]

The "Poor God". "Poor God,He's so sad that all those people are going to be tortured forever, but there's nothing He can do.

Exactly. I'm glad you agree.

 

[d taylor]

There is no punishment for sin all sin has been taken away by Jesus at the cross.

An unbeliever will remain a sinner in the next life but that sin has been taken forgiven. Where as a believer will be freed from sin and never have to be plagued by sin again.

 

[Mink61]

I am curious of any doctrines about divine punishment, specifically as related to the afterlife, but in general, too.

I'll throw out a couple.

Anselm: Anselm argues the sin is not only disobedience, but it also dishonors God. Sin, therefore, incurs a double debt (disobedience and dishonor) that one must repay or for which one must be punished. He explains why punishment is needed. Punishment subjects the human creature, thereby putting them back in their place, which restores God's honor. So, punishment restores God's honor.

Calvin: Calvin, ever the lawyer, said sin makes us criminals, essentially. Criminals must be punished. Sin incurs divine wrath, therefore, God must punish us. Of course, God punishes Jesus in our place so we don't have to be punished. He, too, will talk about punishment putting us back in our proper place.

Is that what divine punishment does? Is it a release valve for divine wrath? Does punishment restore God's honor? Are there any better ideas out there of what punishment is or does? Is divine punishment necessary? If so, why?

(The poll specifically concerns unrepentant sin at death so we can avoid wasting time getting to the point)

I voted for 'other'. I believe that if we refuse to pass through the door of God's Mercy, we must pass through the door of His Justice. But I don't necessarily see "justice" as "punishment".

I tend to look at God and Jesus from a legalistic point of view. That is, God is THE ULTIMATE JUDGE, Jesus is our ULTIMATE LAWYER, and the Bible is the ULTIMATE LAW.

While Jesus made the ultimate sacrifice for our sins, it doesn't not mean that all of our sins are automatically forgiven. Heck, if I murdered someone before becoming 'saved', and murdered again after I became saved, does that mean that I wouldn't be 'punished'?

 

[Jamdoc]

I agree that punishment is needed, but in my flesh, it's hard for me to feel that making a person guilty of 1 sin is guilty of all sins and therefore earns punishment forever and it's not meted out proportionately is just.

Within even the old testament, it's eye for eye, tooth for tooth.. but with the hell doctrine it's 1 lie, get tortured forever just to make you suffer. It seems quite disproportional.

and that's a hard pill to swallow.

 

[public hermit]

There is no punishment for sin all sin has been taken away by Jesus at the cross.

An unbeliever will remain a sinner in the next life but that sin has been taken forgiven. Where as a believer will be freed from sin and never have to be plagued by sin again.

I've never come across this idea. You seem to be saying punishment in the afterlife is to remain enslaved to sin. Believers are freed from its power and the rest continue to be under its power. That's interesting and not the usual take on punishment, I don't think.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

I am curious of any doctrines about divine punishment, specifically as related to the afterlife, but in general, too.

I'll throw out a couple.

Anselm: Anselm argues the sin is not only disobedience, but it also dishonors God. Sin, therefore, incurs a double debt (disobedience and dishonor) that one must repay or for which one must be punished. He explains why punishment is needed. Punishment subjects the human creature, thereby putting them back in their place, which restores God's honor. So, punishment restores God's honor.

Calvin: Calvin, ever the lawyer, said sin makes us criminals, essentially. Criminals must be punished. Sin incurs divine wrath, therefore, God must punish us. Of course, God punishes Jesus in our place so we don't have to be punished. He, too, will talk about punishment putting us back in our proper place.

Is that what divine punishment does? Is it a release valve for divine wrath? Does punishment restore God's honor? Are there any better ideas out there of what punishment is or does? Is divine punishment necessary? If so, why?

(The poll specifically concerns unrepentant sin at death so we can avoid wasting time getting to the point)

I dont want to tip the scales towards Universalism however, unrepentant sin from the flesh is one thing and unrepentant sin of disbelief is another.
Restitution can come in many forms.
Blessings

 

[public hermit]

I voted for 'other'. I believe that if we refuse to pass through the door of God's Mercy, we must pass through the door of His Justice. But I don't necessarily see "justice" as "punishment".

I tend to look at God and Jesus from a legalistic point of view. That is, God is THE ULTIMATE JUDGE, Jesus is our ULTIMATE LAWYER, and the Bible is the ULTIMATE LAW.

While Jesus made the ultimate sacrifice for our sins, it doesn't not mean that all of our sins are automatically forgiven. Heck, if I murdered someone before becoming 'saved', and murdered again after I became saved, does that mean that I wouldn't be 'punished'?

Did Jesus suffer punishment for our sins, or "pay the price" through his suffering? If so, why more punishment and suffering? Was his payment not sufficient?

 

[public hermit]

I agree that punishment is needed, but in my flesh, it's hard for me to feel that making a person guilty of 1 sin is guilty of all sins and therefore earns punishment forever and it's not meted out proportionately is just.

Within even the old testament, it's eye for eye, tooth for tooth.. but with the hell doctrine it's 1 lie, get tortured forever just to make you suffer. It seems quite disproportional.

and that's a hard pill to swallow.

I agree. If punishment is necessary it should fit the crime, so to speak.

 

[public hermit]

I dont want to tip the scales towards Universalism however, unrepentant sin from the flesh is one thing and unrepentant sin of disbelief is another.
Restitution can come in many forms.
Blessings

Maybe that's like the RCC distinction between venial and mortal sin? If you die in mortal sin you're separated forever?

What do you think about punishment?

 

[Halbhh]

For Aquinas, punishment settles a debt or functions as a remedy. I think there is this idea that punishment can be cathartic, but obviously that's not the case for those punished eternally.

Aquinas has that lame argument that sin against God is infinite and deserves infinite punishment. Obviously, God can't handle it and must take it out on God's own creation. Strange.

The 'Catholic' church is a vast conglomeration it seems to me, and over the centuries that has included a lot of insightful theologians of course, so I consider their ideas about 'purgatory' quite possible (with some bible passages that seem to suggest it), and for some of your questions it seems this comes up, but I can only search up some web page because all I read before left me wondering about aspects. Here's one I noticed that addresses a couple of things you are bringing up but perhaps not the main question except indirectly(?): What is Purgatory?

 

[Halbhh]

Did Jesus suffer punishment for our sins, or "pay the price" through his suffering? If so, why more punishment and suffering? Was his payment not sufficient?

You notice that Peter 'stood condemned' in Galatians chapter 2 for a time -- it's so dramatic: he was not going to be able to enter heaven(!).... -- while he was refusing to eat with gentile Christians that had not been physically circumcized, for a time. But we realize in Acts that his error was reversed later. So, for a time, Peter was 'condemned', but then later, restored. That perfectly fits 1rst John chapter 1, where we are to confess sins we do as we go along, and must do so to be cleansed of them. 1 John 1 NIV

So, as a Christian, you must at times confess sins to God, to be cleansed and restored. 1 John 1 NIV

 

[public hermit]

You notice that Peter 'stood condemned' in Galatians chapter 2 for a time -- it's so dramatic: he was not going to be able to enter heaven(!).... -- while he was refusing to eat with gentile Christians that had not been physically circumcized, for a time. But we realize in Acts that his error was reversed later. So, for a time, Peter was 'condemned', but then later, restored. That perfectly fits 1rst John chapter 1, where we are to confess sins we do as we go along, and must do so to be cleansed of them. 1 John 1 NIV

So, as a Christian, you must at times confess sins to God, to be cleansed and restored. 1 John 1 NIV

Are you saying eternal punishment cleanses and restores?

 

[d taylor]

I've never come across this idea. You seem to be saying punishment in the afterlife is to remain enslaved to sin. Believers are freed from its power and the rest continue to be under its power. That's interesting and not the usual take on punishment, I don't think.

I see this as a possibility, being that Jesus took away the sin of the world at the cross. And at the great white throne judgment, sin is not part of that judgment. But the Bible states, their worm will not die. Could worm be a reference to sin nature

These people are still called what they were on earth in Revelation.
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

And it has been stated that new people in hell are mocked by people there.
Hell from beneath is excited about you,
To meet you at your coming;
It stirs up the dead for you,
All the chief ones of the earth;
It has raised up from their thrones
All the kings of the nations.
They all shall speak and say to you:
‘Have you also become as weak as we?
Have you become like us?
Your pomp is brought down to Sheol,
And the sound of your stringed instruments;
The maggot is spread under you,
And worms cover you.’



The part where they are judged to see if their name is in the Book of Life, is what sends them to the lake of fire. Not having The Messiah's Eternal Life is what causes their separation from God and believers. Sin is not what separates an unbeliever from believers and God

 

[Halbhh]

Are you saying eternal punishment cleanses and restores?

Now, the 'eternal punishment' in the 'second death' is to 'perish' where God will 'destroy body and soul' (for humans that perish there, unlike the fallen angels who are already immortal) -- that's 'eternal' in that the 'second death' is an irreversible cessation of existence. But above, the other main question is about for those that need cleansing, but who can be saved, and the question of how they are cleansed, ala purgatory.

To me 'punishment' makes me think of suffering that helps us.

viz: Hebrews 12:6 For the Lord disciplines the one He loves, and He chastises every son He receives."

Suffering that aids us to repent (like the prodigal). 2 Corinthians 7:10 Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation without regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Maybe that's like the RCC distinction between venial and mortal sin? If you die in mortal sin you're separated forever?

What do you think about punishment?

I think when it comes to the Father's wrath, we should not speculate.

 

[public hermit]

Now, the 'eternal punishment' in the 'second death' is to 'perish' where God will 'destroy body and soul' (for humans that perish there, unlike the fallen angels who are already immortal) -- that's 'eternal' in that the 'second death' is an irreversible cessation of existence. But above, the other main question is about for those that need cleansing, but who can be saved, and the question of how they are cleansed, ala purgatory.

To me 'punishment' makes me think of suffering that helps us.

viz:

Right, there is a form of punishment/discipline that is restorative or cathartic. I see you have the second death as a cessation of existence, which would not be punishment, per se, but fitting for the situation. It's not retribution but the elimination of a creature not fitted for eternal life. Is that kind of what you're saying?