Divine punishment? Is it needed?

[public hermit]

I think when it comes to the Father's wrath, we should not speculate.

Is God subject to emotions like anger and rage, or is wrath something else?

 

[Halbhh]

Right, there is a form of punishment/discipline that is restorative or cathartic. I see you have the second death as a cessation of existence, which would not be punishment, per se, but fitting for the situation. It's not retribution but the elimination of a creature not fitted for eternal life. Is that kind of what you're saying?

Yes. I sometimes wonder about purgatory, and I don't assume that the main catholic doctrine is necessarily complete or even accurate, but more like a theory that is quite well fitted to what we know. But for instance, in contrast to their standard doctrine, I would think that if one truly confesses in the heart to God, contrition, that this is already Godly sorrow, and we are being 'cleansed', just as the verse reads. It's not incomplete, see. What more is there to then repair? But perhaps the idea is instead that people fail to confess all that they should? (but...if I understand (not sure I do), the catholic idea seems to be that in addition to being forgiven, a person must also pay a price: " have failed to do sufficient penance for sins already forgiven." Explaining Purgatory - About Catholics -- but I don't see how that fits the verse in 1rst John really for confessed sins, which verse says we are cleansed already: ''will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Is God subject to emotions like anger and rage, or is wrath something else?

He created emotions so it's hard to say if He is subject to them or if its within His eternal Character. Anything that goes against His Character is a sin. Wrath is the consequence.

 

[Sabertooth]

It's interesting that some will say punishment is being further removed from the divine presence, which is suffering. Others will say it's a more direct experience of the divine presence, a presence for which one is ill suited, which is suffering

It IS a "lake of fire" and the tormentors are on the King's payroll [Matthew 18:34-35], so it is a bit of both.

 

[Jamdoc]

I agree. If punishment is necessary it should fit the crime, so to speak.

It's almost like.. similar to Jesus taking on all mankind's sins, each man who rejects Christ takes on all mankind's sins, and so they're punished as if they did every sin any person has ever done.
But.. unlike Christ, there's no redemption in anyone else doing that. Only condemnation.

But.. that doesn't fit scripture so it's not true.
But I don't understand how else if you're guilty of one you're guilty of all.
That's on me and my own shortcomings of understanding obviously.

 

[Mink61]

Did Jesus suffer punishment for our sins, or "pay the price" through his suffering? If so, why more punishment and suffering? Was his payment not sufficient?

I noticed that you put "pay the price" in quotes, and I think that's a smart thing to do. And I think we may differ on the whole, "Wasn't his payment not sufficient" idea.

I'm in the process of reading the Bible once again, in its entirety, during this year. As Spock from Star Trek would say: Fascinating.

There were a number of "blood offerings" by priests in the OT. Sin offerings, purification offerings, etc. These offerings were done through the slaughtering of some kind of animal, and 'sprinkling' its blood on their alter.

Jesus came to us as and offered himself up, as the 'sacrificial--eventually slaughtered--unblemished lamb', and that his blood was spilled, so we no longer had to offer animals for sacrifice. The sacrifice has been made through Christ. But while the sacrifice was made for "all sins", it doesn't mean that all sin is automatically forgiven, especially if you continue to sin. While he died for the forgiveness of sins, he never said that that was automatic, without any repentance on our part.

His payment is only "sufficient" if we accept his offering.

I almost picture Jesus 'up there' shouting to us, "Yo, peeps! I already made the sacrifice for you! All ya gotta do is believe that I'll go to my Dad on your behalf, and I'll offer up MY blood on *your* account! Doesn't matter how many times you sin...as long as you ask me for forgiveness, I'll forgive you!"

Then again, my mind goes into mysterious places...

ETA: I'm probably going to lose my WiFi soon, so if you respond, I may not be able to respond to you until tomorrow....

 

[Halbhh]

Is God subject to emotions like anger and rage, or is wrath something else?

While He is above us:
Isaiah 55:9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so My ways are higher than your ways and My thoughts than your thoughts.

Nevertheless, we read repeatedly of moments when God had justified anger, according to scripture, against evil doers.

Just like you'd be angry if some brutish criminal type started attacking your children, literally in front of you.

You love your children, so you'd feel a just, rightful anger at seeing them harmed right in front of your eyes.

 

[Mink61]

Maybe that's like the RCC distinction between venial and mortal sin? If you die in mortal sin you're separated forever?

What do you think about punishment?

While the RCC believes in venial and mortal sins, committing a mortal doesn't automatically draw one to hell.

A mortal sin has to be a bit MORE than committing the sin. Has to be committed with FULL KNOWLEDGE of the sin. That is, FULL KNOWLEDGE of what can happen to their soul, IF this sin is committed.

Let's not forget that the RCC also believes in Purgatory...so, if you have venial sins on your soul when you die, you have an "out".

Eventually...

 

[Halbhh]

Right, there is a form of punishment/discipline that is restorative or cathartic. I see you have the second death as a cessation of existence, which would not be punishment, per se, but fitting for the situation. It's not retribution but the elimination of a creature not fitted for eternal life. Is that kind of what you're saying?

I was looking more at that 2nd link on purgatory, and one of the summary sentences of a well written paragraph above it reads "The majority of people are neither so free from sin and attachment to sin as to gain immediate entrance into heaven, nor so attached to sin and unrepentant as to be punished forever in hell."

 

[public hermit]

While He is above us:
Isaiah 55:9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so My ways are higher than your ways and My thoughts than your thoughts.

Nevertheless, we read repeatedly of moments when God had justified anger, according to scripture, against evil doers.

Just like you'd be angry if some brutish criminal type started attacking your children, literally in front of you.

You love your children, so you'd feel a just, rightful anger at seeing them harmed right in front of your eyes.

I think statements about divine anger are anthropomorphic. I doubt God is experiencing the fluctuations of emotion as we are, and subject to them like we are. That doesn't mean God accepts evil as if it were good, but I doubt God is subject to reacting to evil as if God didn't know it was coming. God is bringing about the good God intended. My question is, how would eternal punishment be good?

 

[Mink61]

I think statements about divine anger are anthropomorphic. I doubt God is experiencing the fluctuations of emotion as we are, and subject to them like we are.

Why do you doubt this? After all...aren't we created in HIS 'image'? Doesn't God get angry? Don't WE get angry?

Seriously, where do you think that *we* got emotion from?

We may not have it to the same degree that God has it, but ours is different from God's. God said several times in the OT that He's a "jealous" God. But there's a HUGE difference between human jealousy and divine jealousy.

That doesn't mean God accepts evil as if it were good, but I doubt God is subject to reacting to evil as if God didn't know it was coming. God is bringing about the good God intended. My question is, how would eternal punishment be good?

 

[public hermit]

Why do you doubt this? After all...aren't we created in HIS 'image'? Doesn't God get angry? Don't WE get angry?

Seriously, where do you think that *we* got emotion from?

We may not have it to the same degree that God has it, but ours is different from God's. God said several times in the OT that He's a "jealous" God. But there's a HUGE difference between human jealousy and divine jealousy.

We don't want to get the analogy backwards. We are created in the divine image. God is not created in ours. We resemble God in significant ways, but not all our ways or properties are the same as God's.

Emotions are powerful things. We have emotions that don't track reality so we do things we wouldn't have done if we were thinking clearly. Emotions can overpower us so that we feel in ways we can't control. Is God overpowered by strong emotions so that God is fickle or vindictive depending on God's emotional state? I think we need to be careful not to project too much of our experience on God. If God's experience were just like ours, there would be no need for the incarnation.

 

[Mink61]

I was looking more at that 2nd link on purgatory, and one of the summary sentences of a well written paragraph above it reads "The majority of people are neither so free from sin and attachment to sin as to gain immediate entrance into heaven, nor so attached to sin and unrepentant as to be punished forever in hell."

Yes, you're right. So many Christians believe that going to heaven or hell is an "either/or" proposition.

I also understand that there are some faiths that suggest that Heaven and Hell have different "levels".

Perhaps our "Catholic Purgatory" is 'in between' those levels.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

It all depends on one's interpretation of "unrepentant sin". If the definition involves rejection of Christ, then banishment to a Christless eternity would be totally appropriate and just. God has given the choice to all - receive Christ as Saviour and go to heaven, reject Christ and go to hell. Simple and straightforward.

Once that is settled, for the unconverted, it doesn't matter which sins the person has, because every sin they commit is unrepentant. In fact, their sinful lifestyle based on the works of the flesh is evidence that they have rejected Christ and therefore they have made their choice, although they cannot choose the consequences of their choice.

For the converted Christian, their sins have been nailed to the Cross with Christ, and so they are set free from the law of sin and death, and are under the law of the spirit of life in Christ. They have new hearts and have the Holy Spirit, therefore they hate sin and have the greatest desire to fellowship with Christ and live the type of life that will glorify Him.

 

[Mink61]

We don't want to get the analogy backwards. We are created in the divine image. God is not created in ours. We resemble God in significant ways, but not all our ways or properties are the same as God's.

Right. But we still were created in HIS 'image'. So, if God cries, WE cry. If God gets jealous WE can also get jealous.

The difference is, that when *we* get jealous, it's often not of 'divine' origin. Much of it has to do with our own selfishness...

...which is not who God is.

Emotions are powerful things. We have emotions that don't track reality so we do things we wouldn't have done if we were thinking clearly. Emotions can overpower us so that we feel in ways we can't control. Is God overpowered by strong emotions so that God is fickle or vindictive depending on God's emotional state? I think we need to be careful not to project too much of our experience on God. If God's experience were just like ours, there would be no need for the incarnation.

No. God's "emotions" are divine, while *ours* are MOSTLY immature.

 

[jacks]

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Matthew 25:46

From a human perspective neither one of these options seems "fair". I would like to think punishment is only temporary and the joy of heaven is eternal, but I'm not sure what I can base that on. I have heard fairly comforting explanations that punishment is separation from God and not eternal physical torture. However, I easily admit the nature of heaven and hell are mysteries to me.

 

[Blade]

How does the Father see us now? Seems some think we can still add sin to the cross. There is no sin that made it past the blood of Jesus Christ. Not covered but as God said OT He will remember it no more. As our brother Paul by the sweet sweet holy Spirit said to Jews that were saved but offer up a sacrifice for that sin. There is no more sacrifice for that sin. Christ can not die again.

I don't know one believer that has no sin. In that I mean there are so many things we believe are OK yet to GOD they are not and He will say nothing unless we truly from our heart wish to Change. Some of those things can be sin yet we believe its OK but God again will not go against our will. So there is no unrepentant sin that Christ didn't die for. I can still hurt my Father and give the enemy the right to do things in my life IF I sin and don't repent. But the punishment Christ already took for you.

You are going to have to accept it. All HE says "thats why I died". We still see how evil sin is and WE not Him WE have to pay a price for it. This coming from some one that always repents..KNOWING He took everything I would ever do to the Cross. I am seated in heavenly places and boldly comes before Him. I am righteous holy right now forever.. wow.. I don't know if you will believe this...when it happens..its so awesome. Guess what song and words were playing as I was typing "seated, boldly, righteous holy"? (How you see me how you see me now) by Lydia Laird. Yeah I was thinking typing how the Father sees us.. righteous holy because we believe in Jesus and PRAISE GOD GLORY TO JESUS.. the words caught me haha "how you see how you see me know".. Yeah what are the odds.

I'm done.. does not happen every day but when it does.. perfect timing. WOW

 

[public hermit]

It all depends on one's interpretation of "unrepentant sin". If the definition involves rejection of Christ, then banishment to a Christless eternity would be totally appropriate and just. God has given the choice to all - receive Christ as Saviour and go to heaven, reject Christ and go to hell. Simple and straightforward.

Once that is settled, for the unconverted, it doesn't matter which sins the person has, because every sin they commit is unrepentant. In fact, their sinful lifestyle based on the works of the flesh is evidence that they have rejected Christ and therefore they have made their choice, although they cannot choose the consequences of their choice.

For the converted Christian, their sins have been nailed to the Cross with Christ, and so they are set free from the law of sin and death, and are under the law of the spirit of life in Christ. They have new hearts and have the Holy Spirit, therefore they hate sin and have the greatest desire to fellowship with Christ and live the type of life that will glorify Him.

Okay, but is punishment necessary? If so, why? Is it retribution for not glorifying God?

 

[Mink61]

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Matthew 25:46

From a human perspective neither one of these options seems "fair". I would like to think punishment is only temporary and the joy of heaven is eternal, but I'm not sure what I can base that on. I have heard fairly comforting explanations that punishment is separation from God and not eternal physical torture. However, I easily admit the nature of heaven and hell are mysteries to me.

God pretty much knows what our souls are like. If He knows that one will never, never, Ever, EVER change, then why would it be wrong for him to end up in hell?

Consider this: What if...I invited you to a party...and told you, there would be singing and dancing...great food, and wine flowing. The ONLY thing I require of you, is that you have clean shoes, before walking on my pristine white rug.

Some, don't want to 'remove' their shoes, or take them off before entering my home. They decide, "Nope. I don't like your rules". They depart.

Meanwhile, they get into an accident. And lose a limb.

Did I "punish" them for not 'obeying" me? Or, did I simply allow them to 'reap' the consequences of their *free will* decision?

Eternal punishment pretty much means, being like satan. It's a conscious refusal to accept God as God. And some people DO think that they are "better" than God.

 

[public hermit]

Right. But we still were created in HIS 'image'. So, if God cries, WE cry. If God gets jealous WE can also get jealous.

The difference is, that when *we* get jealous, it's often not of 'divine' origin. Much of it has to do with our own selfishness...

...which is not who God is.


No. God's "emotions" are divine, while *ours* are MOSTLY immature.

I think I'm following you. I don't want to say God is less than us, e.g. like a rock and not a Person, but God certainly transcends us. Traditionally, folks have located the divine image in certain properties of humanity, e.g. intelligence, agency, relationality, etc. Rarely, if ever, is it located in emotion. That might be a mistake; I might concur. But it must be a different level of emotion. God is subject to no thing. So, our understanding of divine emotion would need to be significantly qualified, perhaps so much that it becomes metaphor.