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Dispensationalism Refuted

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by JM, Oct 23, 2014.

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  1. Jerryhuerta

    Jerryhuerta Historicist Supporter

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    The faith that was once delivered confirmed that God had not cast away Israel.

    I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means… God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew…. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:1-2, 29​
     
  2. Jerryhuerta

    Jerryhuerta Historicist Supporter

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    The expositors I cited are greater because they came to the progressive revelation of the faith that was once delivered.

    I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means… God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew…. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:1-2, 29​
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2019
  3. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Matthew 18
    21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
    22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

    That's mathematics. It's in Scripture. It's profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

    Galatians 3
    16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

    That's genetics. It's in Scripture. It's profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

    Your waiting is over.
     
  4. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    But what we have yet to see from you; is the sound doctrine, the scriptural based reproof and correction, the Godly instruction in righteousness.
    Lessons in mathematics don't cut it and when the Bible says that God will Redeem, restore, reinstate and forgive the sins of a people that He originally chose then that is what He will do.
    I will say again, so there is no mistake: That people is not the people currently known as Jewish Israelis.
     
  5. Jerryhuerta

    Jerryhuerta Historicist Supporter

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    Keras pretty much said it! BTW, Matthew 18:21-22 and Galatians 3:16 still don't trump 2 Timothy 3:16. 2 Timothy 3:15 says nothing about mathematics or genetics. Christians are to settle doctrine by the WORD of God.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2019
  6. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    So Jesus' mathematical admonition is not Scripture profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

    And Paul's genetic declaration is not Scripture profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

    Predictable BI/RB/BS "wisdom".

    Thanks for the guffaws du jour.
     
  7. Jerryhuerta

    Jerryhuerta Historicist Supporter

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    Speaking of guffaws, why aren't you as eager to avow Paul's other testimonies on ancestry?

    I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means… God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew…. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:1-2, 29

    And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved. Romans 9:27
     
  8. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    First tell us why Matthew 18:21,22 and Galatians 3:16 are not Scripture profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

    Or maybe you don't think that they're Scripture at all.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2019
  9. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Incorrect understanding of my belief again.

    Again, my belief is that that Ephraim became as gentiles, alienated to the covenants through their divorce by God and scattering by Assyria. Over 700 years, from the Assyrian exile to the 1st advent, many of Ephraim's descendants would mix genetically, socially, culturally, and religiously with the surrounding nations.

    Thus, by God including the gentiles, of whom some descended from Ephraim, into the body of Christ, he fulfills his promises to Ephraim's descendants.

    This is substantiated by Paul quoting hosea as fulfilled with the Jews and gentiles in being included in the vessels of mercy


    Romans 9:24-25 including us, whom He has called not only from the Jews, but also from the Gentiles? As He says in Hosea: “I will call them ‘My People’ who are not My people, and I will call her ‘My Beloved’ who is not My beloved,”h

    They became "not God's people", and God became "not their God" due to their disobedience

    Hosea 1:9 And the LORD said, “Name him Lo-ammi, for you are not My people, and I am not your God.

    It's a simple fact that some people in Paul's society had descended from Ephraim and some had not.

    Then don't shatter the scriptures. Scripture is clear that Ephraim became "not my people" and God was "not their God".

    Hosea 1:9 And the LORD said, “Name him Lo-ammi, for you are not My people, and I am not your God.

    My comments make no distinction between Gentiles and Ephraim, because Ephraim became "not my people" and God became "not their God".

    Hosea 1:9 And the LORD said, “Name him Lo-ammi, for you are not My people, and I am not your God.

    Judah, however, remained married to God, thus their was distinction between Judah and Gentiles.
    Hosea 1:7 Yet I will have compassion on the house of Judah, and I will deliver them—not by bow or sword or war, not by horses and cavalry, but by the LORD their God.”

    Additionally, Paul makes no distinction between Ephraim and Gentiles when quotes Hosea as being fulfilled with the inclusion of the gentiles with the Jews as the vessels of mercy.

    I agree

    I agree. And revelation 12 affirms the kingdom of God comes when satan is cast out of heaven.

    Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying: “Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of His Christ. For the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down—

    Never stated it was consummated. There are still gentiles today coming to Christ, just as there were in the first century

    Good, so you agree the reconciliation began at the 1st century.

    Yes it can, Paul literally quotes it as being fulfilled with the gentiles glorifying God.
    Romans 9:12-15 so that the Gentiles may glorify God for His mercy. As it is written: “Therefore I will praise You among the Gentiles; I will sing hymns to Your name.”b Again, it says: “Rejoice, O Gentiles, with His people.”c And again: “Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles, and extol Him, all you peoples.”d And once more, Isaiah says: “The root of Jesse will appear, One who will arise to rule over the Gentiles;
    in Him the Gentiles will put their hope
    .”

    Not following you here. My point the entire time has been that the brotherhood between Ephraim and Judah was broken outside of the new covenant. But inside the new covenant there was peace between Ephraim and Judah.

    Correct, The Jews who had not yet come to Christ were enemies of the body of Christ. Paul was one such person. He was an enemy to the body of Christ, but later received mercy.

    Correct, Jews who had not come to Christ persecuted the body of Christ.

    I agree that Galatians 4 is in regards to the Jews persecuting the church.

    Where did I agree that Ephraim is not included in Romans 11:28? Remember, I believe Ephraim became as gentiles.

    According to your own eisegesis maybe. However, NT scripture is clear that there is enmity between Jew, under the old covenant, and Body of Christ under the new covenant. NT is also clear that there is peace between Jew, under the new covenant, and Gentile under the new covenant.

    This assumes one is teaching it correctly. You seem to ignore the NT application of the OT scriptures to suit your interpretation of the OT.

    Never avoided it. I just don't make a distinction between those within the body of Christ, like you do.

    It was a mystery revealed by the spirit at the 1st advent, that the gentiles would members of the same body

    Ephesians 3:5-6 which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit. This mystery isa that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel

    We see gentiles, who are fellow workers with Paul, bringing the gospel to the nations.

    Philemon 1:24 and so do Mark, Aristarchus, Demas, and Luke, my fellow workers.

    2 Corinthians 8:23 As for Titus, he is my partner and fellow worker for your benefit. And as for our brothers, they are messengersf of the churches, the glory of Christ

    Ironic, I ask a question, you don't answer, and then say I'm sidestepping.....

    According to hosea they were no longer God's people. This would make them as gentiles.
    Hosea 1:9 And the Lord said, “Call his name Not My People, for you are not my people, and I am not your God.

    I agreed they are restored. But I believe the descendants of Ephraim are restored through the inclusion of the gentiles.

    Interesting, you didn't answer my question, but instead side stepped and asked another question. I'll address your question, but I would appreciate the courtesy of answering mine.
    I'll ask again, Do you believe the Jews are still persecuting the body of Christ?

    In regards to "Do you maintain that they are no longer hardened?":

    I believe God hardened Israel, those who rejected Christ and stayed under the old covenant, so that salvation would go to the gentiles. I believe this would make many of those who hardened jealous.

    Romans 11:11 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous.

    I believe by Paul's FELLOW Jews being made jealous by this, SOME would be saved.
    Romans 11:14 order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them

    I believe those who were hardened and remained under the old covenant were cast out in 70ad, as they were destroyed.

    False statement. I have always believe the Ephraim became as gentiles, when they were divorced by God and became "not my people"

    We see gentiles, who are fellow workers with Paul, bringing the gospel to the nations.

    Philemon 1:24 and so do Mark, Aristarchus, Demas, and Luke, my fellow workers.

    2 Corinthians 8:23 As for Titus, he is my partner and fellow worker for your benefit. And as for our brothers, they are messengersf of the churches, the glory of Christ

    This is how you draw logical conclusions? You accept one ancient extra biblical source as fact without comparing it to other sources? I disagree with this methodology.


    A mystery is something unknown. The prophet's were concerned with the salvation of the descendants of Ephraim. They did not know that through Christ, all nations would be brought to salvation through the body of Christ under the new covenant. They did not know that the gentiles would be fellow heirs and fellow members of the same body. Thus, by God including the gentiles into the body of Christ along with the elect Jews, he fulfills his promise to the descendants of Ephraim.
     
  10. Jerryhuerta

    Jerryhuerta Historicist Supporter

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    It's a shame you didn’t grasp my query was rhetorical; I know very well why you're not eager to avow Paul’s other testimonies on ancestry, specifically Romans 11:1-2, 29. But as Romans 11 affirms, God has not cast away his people that he foreknew, verse 2. The theology that I’ve pursued has no problem with Romans 11 but yours does. And I never said Matthew 18:21,22 and Galatians 3:16 are not profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness; you shouldn’t put words in people’s mouths. They relate precepts for the aforesaid. Galatians 3:16 relates a precept concerning the heir by which the gentiles are blessed, which has been affirmed as Christ, strictly through OT scripture and the NT testimony. And Matthew 18:21-22 doesn’t require any calculations to adhere to its precept; Christ is merely expressing a principle through embellishment. The notion they are warrants for genetics or mathematics in doctrine is your absurdity.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2019
  11. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Begone pesky Devil! Supporter

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    Me being a Preterist/Amill, I tend to agree.
    I call it the "spider web" doctrine........

    Dispensationalism – Grace Online Library

    .........Dispensationalism has a pervasive influence not only extensively, but also intensively. It is usually the case that those who embrace its teachings as a system are affected in almost every area of their theological thinking. So pervasive is its effect on those who have become its pupils, that even those who have come to see the error of its basic presuppositions testify that dispensational cobwebs have remained in their thinking for a long time after the initial sweeping took place.

    No evaluation of Dispensational Premillennialism may ignore its teaching of a two-phased return of Christ, the first phase of which is commonly known as the rapture. .............
    ===================
    Dispensationalism: A Return to Biblical Theology or Pseudo Christian Cult – Part I by Gospel Plow
    By GOL | Dispensationalism
    1. Why Argue about Doctrine? Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they....

    Dispensationalism: A Return to Biblical Theology or Pseudo Christian Cult – Part II by Gospel Plow
    By GOL | Dispensationalism
    4. How Does Dispensationalism Deny the Gospel? I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel,…

    Dispensationalism: A Return to Biblical Theology or Pseudo Christian Cult – Part III by Gospel Plow
    By GOL | Dispensationalism
    5. How the Pretribulational Rapture Denies the Gospel We have discussed the fact that the dispensationalist’s understanding of ‘dispensation’ invalidates the reality of grace in any age, how the dispensational…

    spider web.gif
     

    Attached Files:

  12. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Good. So you agree that their admonition and declaration, which Jesus, and the Holy Spirit through Paul, chose deliberately to express in mathematical and genetic terms, are profitable. Glad to see it.

    No surprise that God would express Himself using mathematics and genetics, as He is the Creator of both.

    So mathematics and genetics are unarguably present in Scripture, and support Scripture's messages, both in the cited and other Scriptures, and in the reality of the dispersion and diffusion of the Abrahamic genome throughout the entirety of humanity, thus confirming Scripture's ageless message of the irrelevance of physical DNA as a covenant criterion or qualification.

    1 Peter 1 King James Version (KJV)
    1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
    2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

    Peter identifies those foreknown of God as the elect i.e. those in Christ, both Jew and Gentile.

    In Romans 11:1-5, Paul does the same, referencing those of the Jews, including himself, who are in Christ, as foreknown of God, His People, the elect remnant, who are not cast away.

    Paul previously cites Isaiah relaying God's description of Israel (Isaiah 65:2), the majority of whom in Paul's day were Israelites ethnically, and who were without Christ spiritually:

    Romans 10
    21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

    Paul then declares that he too is an Israelite ethnically (Romans 11:1), but is by contrast in Christ spiritually, one of God's People, part of the foreknown elect uncastaway remnant (Romans 11:2-5).

    That is consistent with Paul's previous declarations in Romans 9, in particular Romans 9:6-8.

    There is thus complete consistency across the declarations of both Peter and Paul: It is the elect in Christ who are God's People that He foreknew.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2019
  13. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    The Redemption of the Lord’s people, by Isaiah ben Amos

    Isaiah, the Lord’s servant – his task is to prophesy the restoration of the 12 tribes of Jacob, to bring back the survivors of Israel, so that the Lord’s salvation may reach all of the earth.1

    The remnant of Judah left in Zion will be called holy, when the Lord cleanses the Land by a spirit of judgement burning like fire.2 The sun will shine with seven times its normal strength on the Day the Lord saves His people.3 Then His glory will provide a refuge and shelter. On that Day, a remnant of Israel, the survivors of Jacob will return to God, their strength. 4

    On that Day, the Lord will exert His power a second time to recover the remnant of His people from the four corners of the earth. He will make a signal to the nations and gather those dispersed from Judah and Israel. Enmity between Judah and Israel will cease.5

    Listen, in silence, My people in the coasts and islands, together we go to the place of judgement. Israel, My servants summoned from the ends of the earth, the furthest corners. Have no fear, you will be strengthened and helped, upheld by My Right hand.6

    I shall give descendants to Israel and Judah, heirs to my chosen people, they will take possession of My Land. Those who forsake the Lord are destined for the sword. 7

    Go out, clear a road for My people, hoist a signal, see your deliverance comes. Comfort My people, their term of bondage is served, their penalty paid. Clear a road through the desert for the Lord – level the ground. I am about to do something new, can you see it? I shall make a way through the desert and I shall provide water so that My people may drink. They will praise Me.8

    For a passing moment, I forsook you, but with tender affection, I shall bring you home again. I swear that My covenant of peace will never be shaken. 9

    Arise and shine, Jerusalem, your sons and daughters are coming from afar – sailing along like clouds, vessels from the coasts and islands, returning your children from distant places, to the honour of God, for He has given you glory.10

    They are coming from far away. My holy Land, not forgotten, it is inscribed onto the palms of My hands. All your children are assembling, flooding back to the Land. So many that the place is too cramped. The nations will bear your sons and daughters in their arms. None who look to Me will be disappointed. 11

    You will go out with joy, be led forth in peace. The Land and trees will be joyful and thriving. I, the Lord, will provide for their needs.12

    He who makes Me his refuge will possess the Land. Peace for all, both far and near, I shall heal Israel, says the Lord. The Lords people, set free, will come back in triumph. Gladness and joy will come upon them and suffering and sorrow will flee away. 13

    A spirit from on high is sent upon us. Justice and righteousness in the Land, His people are living happy and peaceful. 14

    I am Almighty God, for My sake, I will wipe out your transgressions. Israel, never forget Me.15 You are My witnesses, My servants, chosen by Me. Trust Me and know that I am your God.16 The Lord will make a new Covenant with Israel.17

    Buildings will be restored, rebuilt on ancient foundations. If you keep the Commandments, then you will find joy in the Lord and the Land of your father, Jacob, will be yours to enjoy.18 Others will serve you, while you become priests of the Lord, and will enjoy the wealth of the nations.19 Ref: REB. Verses abridged.



    1/ Isaiah 49:5-6The Redemption, Restoration and Rejoining of all Israel: now every true Christian, by descent or grafted in by reason of righteousness. Galatians 3:26-29, Deuteronomy 30:1-10, Jeremiah 31:7-9, Ezekiel 37:1-28, Acts 26:6-7, Ephesians 2:11-18

    2/ Isaiah 4:3-6 - All of the holy Land will be cleared and cleansed, but a remnant will survive in Jerusalem. Ezekiel 21:4, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Jeremiah 7:34, Zephaniah 1:18, Micah 5:11, Jeremiah 4:26-28, Isaiah 6:11-13, Isaiah 29:4, Zechariah 13:8-9

    3/ Isaiah 30:26a – A Coronal Mass Ejection will explode out from the sun, literally fulfilling all the many prophesies about this forthcoming Day of the Lord’s wrath. Deut. 32:22 & 34-43, Isaiah 66:15-16, Psalms 97:3-5, Malachi 4:1,3, Jer. 25:33, Rev. 6:12-17

    4/ Isaiah 10:20-21 The Lord promises protection for His people and all who call upon His Name, on that Day. Joel 3:16, Isaiah 26:20-21, Zeph.2:3, Zech.9:15-16, Prov. 3:25-26

    5/ Isaiah 11:11-13The exile punishment of the 12 tribes of Judah, the Jews and Israel, scattered among the Western nations, will be completed. Isaiah 40:1-2, 2 Chronicles 6:36-39, Jeremiah 29:13-14

    6/ Isaiah 41:1-10 - They will re-join and gather at the place of judgement in preparation to enter the holy Land. Ezekiel 20:34-36, Isaiah 27:12-13, Amos 3:9

    7/ Isaiah 65:9-12- Those judged righteous will take possession of the holy Land, Those who forsake the Lord will die. Ezekiel 20:37-38, Jeremiah 5:26, Isaiah 1:25, Isa. 10:17-22

    8/ Isaiah 62:10, Isaiah 40:1-3, Isaiah 43:19-21 The Lord’s people will march into the Land with great joy and thanksgiving. Psalms 68:7-9 & 19-27, Isaiah 42:16, Isaiah 40:26-31

    9/ Isaiah 54:7-10The punishment by exile for Israel and Judah was for a decreed period. Now the Lord will make a new Covenant with them. Jeremiah 31:31-34, Ezekiel 11:26-28, Hebrews 8:10-13

    10/ Isaiah 60:1-9, Isaiah 49:8-23 His Christian people, brought into the holy Land, all that area from the Nile to the Euphrates. Many millions; all true believers in the Lord. Isaiah 66:18-20, Zechariah 10:8-10, Micah 7:11-12, Isaiah 49:1-23

    11/ Isaiah 49:14-21 - The Lord did [will] devastate and depopulate all the Holy Land, but now it is too small for all My righteous people. Psalms 83, Ezekiel 30:2-5, Micah 7:11-13, Rev.7:9

    12/ Isaiah 55:12-13, Isaiah 41:17The Lord will send rain and the Land will be regenerated. He will provide food and water in plenty. Ezekiel 36:8-12, Isa. 35:1-2, Psalms 68:7-10

    13/ Isaiah 57:13 & 19 At the present time, Judah has possession of a part of the holy Land, but soon all the Lord’s Christian people will live in all their heritage in peace and prosperity. Hosea 2:14-23, Psalms 69:22-36, Ezekiel 28:24-26, Revelation 7:9-10

    14/ Isaiah 32:15-16, Isaiah 51:11, Isaiah 35:10 - God’s Spirit is sent onto His people. The Lord will heal them spiritually and physically. Psalms 126:1-5, Psalms 147:2-3, Isaiah 30:26b, Isaiah 44:1-5, Ezekiel 11:19-20, Ezekiel 37:1-14, Acts 2:17-21

    15/ Isaiah 44:22Their sins are forgiven. 1 Kings 8:46-52, Psalms 79:8-9, Micah 7:18, Hosea 14:1-7, John 1:29, Hebrews 8:12

    16/ Isaiah 43:10-11All this will happen in the end times, before the Return of Jesus for His Millennial reign. They will be ‘a light to the nations’ and will send out 144,000 missionaries to proclaim the Gospel of the coming Kingdom of Jesus. Isaiah 66:19, Revelation 14:1-7

    17/ Isaiah 59:21The Mosaic Covenant is superseded by a New Covenant. Jer. 31:31-34, Jer. 32:36-41, Hosea 2:19-23, Ephesians 2:15, Hebrews 8:7-13

    18/ Isaiah 58:12-14They will build a new Temple on Mt Zion. Ezekiel 40-44, Haggai 2:6-9, Zechariah 1:16-17, Zech. 6:15, Zech. 8:9, 2 Thess. 2:3-4

    19/ Isaiah 61:5-6Amazing promises of God to His people in the new nation of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5, Isaiah 66:21-24, Hosea 14:4-7, Psalms 102:15-22, Colossians 1:11-12
     
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  14. Jerryhuerta

    Jerryhuerta Historicist Supporter

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    Ephraim’s circumstances after hundreds of years of exile, being mixed through intermarriage, and being divorced from God, does not refute their ancestry and the consistency that Hosea 2:23 was prophesied about them and not the gentiles, who were of no such ancestry. You inadvertently conceded this when you stated: “It's a simple fact that some people in Paul's society had descended from Ephraim and some had not.Hosea 1:6 states that God “will no more have mercy on the house of Israel,” meaning that prior to being cast off Ephraim had been shown God’s mercy as His chosen firstborn son (Exodus 4:22), who was also personified as his wife through a covenant relationship, which cannot be sustained about gentiles who were of no such ancestry. To assert that Romans 9:25-26 pertains to the gentiles in the context of Romans 9 is a claim that Hosea was wrong and that Hosea 2:23 was not about Ephraim but was about people of all nations that had never before been shown God’s mercy as His chosen people and had never before been personified as his wife through a covenant relationship. As I stated previously, your interpretation clearly refutes the inerrancy of scripture.

    Your refutation of the grammatical-historical interpretation of scripture is persistent, as you had previously refuted the promise that “Ephraim” would be brought back in Zechariah 10:6, 9-12, or in essence, to their land, Samaria. Your refutation asserts that Zechariah 10:6, 9-12 was wrong and that the gentiles are also “restored” even though they never had been cast out of Samaria, the promised land in said text. If you had stated that the texts pertained strictly to Ephraim because of the contextual element of restoration to their land and that the NT provides the progressive revelation that elect gentiles are to be joined to them, in acknowledgment they are not to be interpreted as “restored to the land,” as Ephraim, then your interpretation would maintain the inerrancy of Zechariah and the grammatical-historical interpretation, but that was not the case.

    Furthermore, the prophecies of Zechariah 10-11 affirm that Christ came not to establish the Messianic kingdom, but to end the Old Covenant relationship with Judah and cast off the disobedient house of Judah that salvation would come to the gentiles (Romans 11:11), which is why the remnant of Judah has to be brought back in Zechariah 10:6, 9-12. The Messianic kingdom is fixed to the event when Israel and Judah are brought back to dwell in security, as in Jeremiah 23:1-6, Isaiah 11, Zechariah 14, Ezekiel 38:8-12 and Revelation 11:15-18, which creates a fallacy in any assertion that Christ came to establish his kingdom at the same time he came to cast off rebellious Judah and sow Ephraim so that salvation would come to the gentiles in Romans 11:11. By your acknowledgment that God fulfills his promises to Ephraim when Christ came you unintentionally affirm that Ephraim is the first son in the parable of the two sons.

    "What do you think? A man had two sons. And he went to the first and said, 'Son, go and work in the vineyard today. 'And he answered, 'I will not,' but afterward he changed his mind and went. And he went to the other son and said the same. And he answered, 'I go, sir,' but did not go. Which of the two did the will of his father?" They said, "The first." Jesus said to them, "Truly, I say to you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes go into the kingdom of God before you. Matthew 21:28-31

    In the grammatical-historical interpretation, the man must go initially to his firstborn, considering that the firstborn had the principal responsibilities as well as privileges. This is further substantiated that Ephraim is God’s firstborn in Jeremiah 31:9 that finds grace in the wilderness and is then sown in the world, just as in Zechariah 10:8-9.

    "At that time, declares the LORD, I will be the God of all the clans of Israel, and they shall be my people." Thus says the LORD: "The people who survived the sword found grace in the wilderness; when Israel sought for rest…. "Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man and the seed of beast. And it shall come to pass that as I have watched over them to pluck up and break down, to overthrow, destroy, and bring harm, so I will watch over them to build and to plant, declares the LORD. In those days they shall no longer say: "'The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge. 'But everyone shall die for his own sin. Each man who eats sour grapes, his teeth shall be set on edge. Jeremiah 31:1-2, 27-30​


    Clearly, Jeremiah, above, and Zechariah’s account are of Christ’s first advent and the source of many of the parables, such as the wheat and tares, considering that the annulment of the Old Covenant ends the punishment of the children for the sins of the fathers in the idiom, above, which was the ramifications of the curses under the Old Covenant (Deuteronomy 28:15-68). Returning to the parable, the son who said he wouldn’t go and work the vineyard but afterward changed his mind was Ephraim, which is why he is God’s firstborn in Jeremiah 31:9, while the son who said he would but would not, is obviously Judah. Ephraim is clearly the nation, the firstborn, that bears the fruit of the vineyard. God’s intent to plant the elect remnant of Judah and Ephraim in the world is for the purpose of bringing in the gentiles and is by definition the kingdom of God or heaven in the NT, but it is not the Messianic kingdom conveyed in Jeremiah 23:1-6, Isaiah 11, Zechariah 14 and Revelation 11:15-18. The Messianic kingdom delivers the people of God from their enemies, which is not the purpose of this age, but the next.

    The NT affirms that Jews and Ephraimites found brotherhood in Christ in Peter’s epistles as the exception to the prophecy that their brotherhood is broken in Zechariah 11:13. The explanation is obvious; the Jews predominantly disavowed Christ and Ephraim predominantly avowed him, which allows for the exceptions and the fulfillment of Zechariah 11:13 at the same time. Isaiah 11 affirms that when Christ strikes “the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he shall kill the wicked,” the brotherhood is restored, which is clearly the time of the Messianic kingdom (Isaiah 11:4). And Romans 15:12 does not affirm Isaiah 11 was fulfilled at the first advent, because Isaiah 11:4 did not materialize.

    One shouldn’t apply the NT to change the OT, as you do. One should read the OT exactly for what it states and use the NT to add anything beyond the prophet’s vision, which does not change the original intent, for when one does change the original intent, they overthrow the inerrancy of scripture. Just as in the case of the prophecies that Ephraim would be sown in the world, which is never prophesied about the gentiles, which I stated you avoid.

    Not only do you avoid that the gentiles are never prophesied to be sown in the world, you avoid that the body of Christ has different members and not all are called to be ministers. Ephraim was called to be God’s witnesses to the world, which cannot be upheld about the gentiles.

    But now thus says the LORD, he who created you, O Jacob, he who formed you, O Israel: "Fear not, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by name, you are mine…. "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me. Isaiah 43:1, 10​

    "But now hear, O Jacob my servant, Israel whom I have chosen…. Fear not, nor be afraid; have I not told you from of old and declared it? And you are my witnesses! Is there a God besides me? There is no Rock; I know not any." Isaiah 44:1, 8​

    In reference to 1 Peter 1:10-12 you wrote,

    He calls the gentiles through Ephraim, the son who said he would not work in the vineyard but did it anyway. 1 Peter 1:10-12 affirms Peter is speaking of Ephraim in 1 Peter 2:9-10 as the “nation” that bears the fruit of the vineyard in Matthew 21:43.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2019
  15. Jerryhuerta

    Jerryhuerta Historicist Supporter

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    Still puting words in my mouth. I never stated that mathematics or genetic are profitable for doctrine.

    And how does this negate that Paul states that "God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew" (Romans 11:2)? You start off in error because Peter is addressing the elect exiles of the dispersion, in 1 Peter 1:1-2, whom the prophets were inquiring about concerning their salvation in verses 10-12, which cannot be the gentiles. As for God's foreknowledge, this is what Hosea saw concerning Ephraim, who is the nation who Hosea was writing about in Hosea 2:23, which Peter cites in chapter 2:10. Supersessionism is clearly inept concerning the OT prophesies.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2019
  16. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Who said it refuted their ancestry?

    This doesn't surmount that Ephraim became as the gentiles by becoming "not my people"

    Hosea 1:9 And the Lord said, “Call his name Not My People, for you are not my people, and I am not your God.”c

    No, it was intentional statement based on anthropology. In the 1st century, 700 years after the exile, there would have been people who descended from Ephraim, That's just a logical conclusion. So I'm glad that you agree that some people in Paul's society descended from Ephraim and some did not.

    No argument here. I agree. Hosea 1:6, in it's grammatical historical context is about the 10 northern tribes being cast off to become as the gentiles.

    I would also agree that the hosea 1 is not about those who are not from the 10 northern tribes or 2 southern tribes. In other words, Hosea 1-2 is not about those OUTSIDE of Israel. This we appear to agree on.


    And this statement clearly shows your misunderstanding of my interpretation.

    Remember, I believe Ephraim is the subject of hosea 1-2. Ephraim became as the gentiles by becoming "not my people" when they were cast off.

    Hosea 1:9 And the Lord said, “Call his name Not My People, for you are not my people, and I am not your God.”c

    Hosea prophesies that one day, the descendants from Ephraim, who were as gentiles, would one day become His people again.

    Hosea 2:23 And I will have mercy on No Mercy,hand I will say to Not My People,i ‘You are my people’;
    and he shall say, ‘You are my God.’”

    Thus, Paul quotes Hosea 2:23 as being fulfilled by the inclusion of the Gentiles with the Jews into the body of Christ.

    Romans 9:24-25 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? As indeed he says in Hosea,“Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”

    This substantiates that the gentiles consist of both descendants of Ephraim and those who did not descend from Ephraim. Thus by God including the gentiles (descendants of Ephraim and non-descendants of Ephraim) into the body of Christ, he fulfills his promises to Ephraim.

    I never have believed that the gentiles would be restored to the earthly physical land of Israel.

    I don't differentiate between the messianic kingdom and the kingdom of God.

    We have agreed that the sowing is the great commission.
    Matthew 28:18-19 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

    The sowing begins when Jesus ascends and sends the Spirit.
    Acts 1:8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

    The kingdom comes when Christ ascends to heaven and casts out Satan
    Revelation 12:10 and I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothersb has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God

    His people are made a kingdom when Jesus ascends to take the scroll after being slain.
    Revelation 5:9-10 And they sang a new song, saying,“Worthy are you to take the scroll
    and to open its seals,for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God
    from every tribe and language and people and nation,and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God,and they shall reign on the earth.”


    The is consistent with the KINGDOM being compared to a man who sowed good seed.
    Matthew 13:24 He put another parable before them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field

    This is consistent with the KINGDOM being compared to a mustard seed (starts in Jerusalem) and turns into a tree (ends of the earth)
    Matthew 13:31-32 He put another parable before them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven is like a grain of mustard seed that a man took and sowed in his field. It is the smallest of all seeds, but when it has grown it is larger than all the garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and make nests in its branches.”

    Just to clarify, you believe the tax collectors and prostitutes are Ephraim?

    Matthew 21:32 For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes believed him. And even when you saw it, you did not afterward change your minds and believe him.

    Hey look at that, we kind of agree. The only difference would be that I believe the gentiles (descendants of Ephraim and non descendants of Ephraim) being included in the vessels of mercy with the remnant of Judah and being sown in the world is the kingdom of God/heaven.

    I disagree

    I disagree, as paul quotes it being fulfilled with gentiles giving glory to God.

    I haven't changed anything, that would be confusion on your part.

    Let's see,

    1.) I read Hosea 1:9 for what it says. It says Ephraim would become "not my people"
    2.) I read hosea 2:23 for what it says. It says one day Ephraim would again be "my people"
    3.) I read Romans 9, where Paul adds beyond the prophet's (hosea) vision of only Ephraim, by the including of gentiles (of whom some descended from Ephraim) with Jews in the vessels of mercy. Thus fulfilling the promises to Ephraim by the inclusion of gentiles into the vessels of mercy with the Jews.


    I didn't avoid it. I provided NT scripture showing Luke and Titus (gentiles) being fellow workers for the great commission.

    Paul, from the kingdom of Judah and not Ephraim, was a witness to the gentiles. Paul's fellow gentile companions, Luke and Titus, were also witnesses to the nations.
     
  17. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    Isaiah 54:1 Sing, barren woman, who never bore a child, Shout for joy, you who have never been in labour, for the deserted wife will have more children that she who has a husband.
    This verse refers to the Israelites – the 10 Northern tribes, then Judah, both divorced and exiled from God for their sins, but now ‘a vast multitude’. Isaiah 50:1, Jeremiah 3:8-9, Malachi 2:10-11, Ezekiel 36:10-11.

    Isaiah 54:2-3 Enlarge your space, spread out right and left, your descendants will dispossess nations and will inhabit cities now desolate.
    The Israelites, now including every faithful Christian: will go to live in all of the holy Land, they will take over neighbouring areas and will live in their abandoned houses. Zechariah 10:8-10, Micah 7:11, Ezekiel 36:24-28, Amos 9:12, Zephaniah 3:19-20.]

    Isaiah 54:4-6 Fear not, you will not be put to shame or disgrace. It is time to forget the shame of your younger days and the reproach of your casting off, for your husband is your Maker, His name is Y’hovah. The Holy One of Israel is your redeemer, He acknowledges you as his possession again, once cast off and heartbroken.
    His people, the Christian Israelites of God, can look forward to their redemption and restoration to their heritage. Amos 9:13-15, Jeremiah 31:31-34, Isaiah 14:1-2

    Isaiah 54:7-8 I forsook you for a passing moment, but with tender affection, I shall bring you home again. In an upsurge of anger, I hid My face from you, but now, I shall give you never failing love, says the Lord; your Redeemer.
    a passing moment – 1000s of years of Israel’s exile ( a 1000 years is as a day to God) Soon to migrate to their true homeland. Isaiah 35:1-10, Zephaniah 3:17, Micah 3:6-8.

    Isaiah 54:9-10 This to Me, is like when I swore to never again flood the earth, so now I swear to you – to never again be angry or rebuke you. My love will never fail and My covenant of peace will never be shaken.
    Wonderful promises of blessings to His people, those who love and serve Him. Micah 7:19, Hosea 14:4-7, Ezekiel 37:26-27

    Isaiah 54:11-12 Storm battered city, distressed and desolate, now I shall rebuild you with the finest materials.
    Jerusalem – and all Israel- rebuilt and regenerated after the destruction caused by the Lords Day of vengeance and wrath. Joel 1:19-20, Amos 9:11, Ezekiel 36:8-12

    Isaiah 54:13-17 Your children will be instructed by the Lord, they will enjoy great prosperity. They will have nothing to fear. If anyone tries to attack you, they will die [Ezekiel 38 & 39 & Joel 2:20] No weapon will prevail against you and any accuser will be refuted. These benefits are enjoyed by the servants of the Lord, their victory comes from Me. Reference; REB, some verses abridged.

    His faithful Christian people, living in peace and security, in all of the holy Land, will fulfil all the promises made to the Patriarchs. They will be ‘a Light to the nations ‘ and will send out 144,000 missionaries to spread the gospel of the coming Kingdom of Jesus Christ. Isaiah 66:19, and Luke 10:1-19 is the precursor for them.
     
  18. Jerryhuerta

    Jerryhuerta Historicist Supporter

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    Paul cites Hosea 2:23 in Romans 9:25-26 as being fulfilled (which you acknowledge) because he witnessed Peter’s success with the descendants of Ephraim, the lost sheep of Israel in Galatia, which is what I’ve been maintaining all along. You’re proceeding on the false assumption that the lost sheep of Israel were strictly the Jews. Let me remind you, Christ declared he had other sheep not of the fold in Jerusalem (John 10:16). The epistles of James and Peter affirm the fulfillment of Hosea 2:23 wasn’t due to the inclusion of the gentiles by any means, but by Peter’s obeyance of Christ’s initial command not to “go in the way of the Gentiles,” and “not enter any city of the Samaritans; but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Matthew 10:5-6). Galatians 2:7-9 affirms James and Peter continued to obey that command and that is how Hosea 2:23 was fulfilled, which is why he cites Hosea 2:23 in his first epistle, chapter 2:10. Your assertion Hosea 2:23 was fulfilled by the inclusion of the gentiles cannot be sustained in light of the NT’s evidence that the apostles obeyed Christ and went to the lost sheep of Israel in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia: Ephraim (1 Peter 1:1-2).

    In reference to Zechariah 10:6, 10-12 I had made the statement that “The intent was to restore the kingdom to the elect biological descendants under the New Covenant,” and your response was, “As well as the gentiles who became one with the elect biological descendants through Christ under the new covenant.” Without a doubt, you made the claim that the gentiles are restored just like Ephraim! Now show us, where it is written that Ephraim is brought back or restored to heaven!

    On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, "To your offspring I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates, the land of the Kenites, the Kenizzites, the Kadmonites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites and the Jebusites." Genesis 15:18-21

    It’s clear the elect descendants of Abraham in Zechariah 10:6, 10-12 are brought back or restored to where they came from in Genesis above. And since Galatian 3:29 maintains the gentiles are fellow heirs, they are blessed in joining Ephraim when he is brought back to the land; our inheritance is not heaven, but on earth as Matthew 5:5 and Revelation 5:10 affirms. The kingdom of heaven is for the poor in spirit in this age, as you’ve affirmed, but the meek inherit the earth along with the elect descendants of Abraham in the age to come.

    But the scriptures do differentiate between the messianic kingdom (MK) and the kingdom of God (KOG). The MK brings back the elect descendants of Abraham to the land God promised them in Genesis 15:18-21 and has them dwell in security, affirmed in Isaiah 27:12-13, Jeremiah 23:1-8, Ezekiel 38:8-12 and a host of other texts. The KOG has God cast off Judah and sow the elect remnant of Judah and Ephraim throughout the world and plant them in the land to grow alongside the tares (Zechariah 10:8-9; Hosea 2:23; Jeremiah 31:27-30; Matthew 13:24-30).

    And you wonder why I don’t respond to silly challenges. By your own concession, Ephraim was gathered in Christ and sown in the world to proclaim the great commission at Christ’s first advent, while Judah stayed in bondage to the Old Covenant, which makes Ephraim the first son in Matthew 21:28-32.

    Not only do you try and change the Old Testament, you try and change the New also. As I stated above, the fulfillment of Hosea 2:23 had nothing to do with the inclusion of the gentiles. You’re proceeding on the false assumption that the lost sheep of Israel were strictly the Jews. Peter and James continued to evangelize the lost sheep of Israel and by their mission and work Hosea 2:23 was fulfilled, having nothing to do with the inclusion of the gentiles.

    I do believe I requested prophecy that the gentiles were to be sown in the world at the time the New Covenant is ratified, just like Ephraim and a remnant of Judah in Zechariah 10:8-9, Jeremiah 31:27-30, Hosea 2:23, Amos 9:9 and Micah 5:7. The NT evidence is sufficient that gentiles proclaim the gospel but not that they are sown throughout the world and then planted and fed by God, in fulfillment of Matthew 13:24-30.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2019
  19. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    This view is so bad because in Acts 15 James quotes Amos 9:11-12 at Acts 15:13-18! According to James there are no lost tribes.
     
  20. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    Well; Ebed, you are consistent in your beliefs. Opposing anything I post is an old habit of yours!
    Realize this: God does have a secret, a mystery that He has kept from our general knowledge. He chose a people group to be His witness's to the world, but they failed so He scattered them around the world.
    Their exile is plainly stated to be for a set period and then God intends to regather them into His holy Land, in a greater second Exodus. Isaiah 11:11, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Zechariah 8:1-8 and many other Bible passages that plainly describe a restoration, redemption and God's forgiveness to the same people as He originally chose.
    Your belief denies these scriptures and denies that God is capable of knowing who and where those people are today.

    For sure, many non-Israelites who have become Christian, will join them, but in order for God's promises to the Patriarchs to be fulfilled; the majority will be actual descendants of Jacob.
     
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