Dispensationalism Refuted

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jgr

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jgr, I think the term should be God's only "saved" people are those who accept and follow His Son in faith and obedience.

When people start saying "covenant" interchangeably with "saved", that's where the confusion starts.

Yes, both salvation and the covenant relationship are dependent upon faith and obedience, Douggg. All of these are inextricable.
 
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keras

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God will abandon faith and obedience as His ageless covenant requirements, and substitute something else?

Scripture for that?

In particular, New Covenant Scripture for that?
Faith and obedience are still essential requirements to be a child of God.
We see this criteria in action when all the Israelites are gathered and passed under the Rod of Judgment.
Ezekiel 20:34-38 …[after] My outpoured wrath, I shall bring you out of the nations, from where you have been dispersed, into the Wilderness. There I shall confront you and pass Judgement on all of you Israelites.
Just as I did in the wilderness of Egypt with your forefathers, I shall state My case against you. It is the Lord who speaks.
I shall make you pass under the Rod, counting you as you enter the holy Land. I shall purge you of all who revolt and rebel and they will not enter the holy Land.
Isaiah 35:1-10 parallels this.
Ezekiel 20:39-44 goes on to say how the Israelites will live and serve God in all of the Land given to the Patriarchs, for the honor of His holy Name.

Of course, aliens can and will join them, as Isaiah 56:1-8 says.
I suggest, jgr, that you start reading the prophesies for what they actually are telling us. Remember that God, whose ways are not our ways, did choose the Israelite people. Did He make a mistake, never to bother with them again? YOU provide the scripture saying that!
 
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jgr

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Remember that God, whose ways are not our ways, did choose the Israelite people.

He chose faithful and obedient Israelite people. (1 Kings 19:18)

He slew unfaithful and disobedient Israelite people. (Numbers 16:49)

There has never been a question scripturally of how He identifies His Chosen People.

Ref. post 479.
 
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keras

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There has never been a question scripturally of how He identifies His Chosen People.
Yes, the Bible plainly tells us that His people are mainly those whom God has carefully tracked thru the generations, Amos 9:8-9, genuine descendants of Jacob, who have accepted the Gospel. They are joined by some other people, aliens in God's sight; all grafted into the Tree that is Jesus, some by their faith only, the majority by their faith and genetics.
Israel is not totally rejected:
Israelites: All who follow after righteousness, all who seek the Lord…..Abraham is your father, Sarah your mother: the Rock from which you are hewn. Isaiah 51:1-2

Leviticus 26:40-43 Even though the Israelites confess their iniquity, their own and that of their forefathers, I in My turn will oppose them while they live in the enemies land. If then, their stubborn spirit is broken and they accept their punishment in full, I shall remember My Covenant with the Patriarchs and I shall remember the Land. The Land, bereft of its rightful people will enjoy in full its Sabbaths, while it lies desolate. My people will pay their penalty in full because they spurned My statutes and judgements.

Leviticus 26:44-45 Yet, even while they live outside their Land, I will not have so rejected them as to bring them to an end and break My Covenant with them, because I am the Lord their God. I shall remember on their behalf, the Covenant that I made with their ancestors, whom I brought out of Egypt. I am Y’hovah.

Deuteronomy 30:1-5 When all these things have happened to you in the nations to which I have banished you, if you and your children turn back to the Lord and obey His commands with your heart and soul: Then the Lord, your God will restore your fortunes. In compassion for you, He will gather you again from the peoples, even from the ends of the earth. He will fetch you home, back to the land of your ancestors and you will occupy it once again. You will be more prosperous and numerous than your forefathers.

Deuteronomy 30:6-10 The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts, so that you will love Him and obey His commands, and then you will live. All the curses that you endured will be turned against your enemies, those who persecute you. He will make you more prosperous in all that you do, in your families and the produce of the Land. When you turn back to your God with all your heart, He will again rejoice over you and do you good.

The prayer of Daniel for the Redemption and Restoration of all the Israelites;
Daniel 9:4-14 Lord, great and terrible God, You keep faith with those who love You and observe Your commandments, we have sinned and rebelled against You. We have not listened to Your prophets, who spoke in Your Name to our forefathers. Lord, the right is on Your side; the shame, now as ever belongs to us, the people of Judah and to all the Israelites, near and far in every land to which You have banished them for their disloyal behavior toward You. All Israel has broken Your Law and refused to obey Your commandments, so that the oath and curses recorded by Moses have rained down upon us, for we have sinned against God. He has carried out the just punishments and brought upon us the disasters as foretold. Yet we have done nothing to appease the Lord, our God; we have neither repented of our wrongful deeds, nor remembered that You are true to Your Word. The Lord has kept strict watch and done what He said He would do.

Daniel 9:15-19 Now, Lord our God who brought Your people out of Egypt by a strong hand and winning for Yourself a great Name; we have sinned, we have done wrong. Lord, by all Your saving deeds; we beg that Your wrath and anger depart from Jerusalem and Your Land. Listen, our God, to Your servants prayer and supplication for Your sake, Lord look favorably on Your sanctuary that is desecrated. God, incline Your ear to Your people, and hear us, we pray. It is not because of any righteous doings of ours, but because of Your great mercy that we lay our supplication before You. Lord; hear, Lord; forgive, Lord; listen and act, God for Your own sake do not delay, for reputation of the city and for the people that bear Your Name.

Acts 26:6-7 In the hope based on the promise God made to our forefathers, all twelve tribes of Israel worship with intense devotion, looking forward to the fulfilment of that promise. Reference: Revised English Bible. Some verses abridged.
 
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Douggg

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Yes, both salvation and the covenant relationship are dependent upon faith and obedience, Douggg. All of these are inextricable.
Salvation is not a covenant to non blood descendants of the 12 tribes, because it was/is a free gift from God and we didn't do anything to deserve the gift.

Even so, the new covenant is only called new, as a relative term, pertaining only to the blood descendants of the 12 tribes because they had what is now called the old covenant, aforehand.

Salvation is not a covenant but a free gift from God. The disciples were told by Jesus to go out and preach....

Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
 
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jgr

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Salvation is not a covenant to non blood descendants of the 12 tribes, because it was/is a free gift from God and we didn't do anything to deserve the gift.

Even so, the new covenant is only called new, as a relative term, pertaining only to the blood descendants of the 12 tribes because they had what is now called the old covenant, aforehand.

Salvation is not a covenant but a free gift from God. The disciples were told by Jesus to go out and preach....

Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

The twelve tribes have nothing to do with salvation outside of the New Covenant unless you believe the "two peoples of God" "salvation by DNA" heterodoxy.

Explain with Scripture how salvation can be received by anyone outside of the New Covenant.

Salvation and the New Covenant are inextricable.
 
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keras

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Correct. The faithful and obedient remnant within Israel is not rejected. (Romans 9:27; 11:1-5).
I've never said differently.
Here we go again! You just don't get it, do you?
This issue is NOT about those people who call themselves Jews, living in a small part of the holy Land and who usurp the name of Israel for their nation. They are no different in God's sight, than all the rest of the nations: about .05% are faithful Christian believers.
Who is the real Israel, is all the faithful people of God, those who bear the proper fruit, Matthew 21:43 and who are still scattered among the nations. They are people from every tribe, race, nation and language, Isaiah 66:18b, Revelation 7:9

Those Christian people generally do not know their ancestry. Only a for a few generations; 10 at the most.
None of them, us; would know their origins, but what anthropologists tell us is that the Caucasian, Western peoples originated from the Caucasus region of Asia, about 3,500 years ago.
Exactly when and where the 10 tribes were exiled to!

That people simply cannot make the connection, is because God has blinded them, so He can work with His people free of racial encumbrances and in the end.....Voilà! He has a nation of Israelites, in His holy Land, being the people He always wanted there.
Praise God; He will Redeem, restore, and reinstate His faithful people. His Promises to them and to the Patriarchs will come true!
 
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Douggg

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The twelve tribes have nothing to do with salvation outside of the New Covenant unless you believe the "two peoples of God" "salvation by DNA" heterodoxy.
I am saying that salvation is not a covenant. Salvation is a gift. Not a covenant.

Explain with Scripture how salvation can be received by anyone outside of the New Covenant.
Jonn 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:


The term new covenant has relevancy only to them who were part of the old covenant. Salvation is not a covenant, but a free gift from God.
 
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jgr

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I am saying that salvation is not a covenant. Salvation is a gift. Not a covenant.

Matthew 26:28
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

You do not experience the remission of sins, which accompanies salvation, apart from the new testament/covenant.

Christ linked the two inseparably.

2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

"Us", Believers in Christ who have experienced salvation, live under and and are minsters of the new testament/covenant.

The term new covenant has relevancy only to them who were part of the old covenant. Salvation is not a covenant, but a free gift from God.

1 Corinthians 11:25
After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

According to your claim, you do not need to partake of the Lord's Supper, because you were never part of the old covenant, and therefore since the Lord's Supper is a new covenant observance, it has no relevance to you (nor has it had for any Believer for the last 2,000 years).
 
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Douggg

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Matthew 26:28
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

You do not experience the remission of sins, which accompanies salvation, apart from the new testament/covenant.
And Jesus in those verses was speaking to Jews who the old covenant applied.
Christ linked the two inseparably.

2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

"Us", Believers in Christ who have experienced salvation, live under and and are minsters of the new testament/covenant.
"Us" are the Jewish apostles, Paul and Timothy, in 2Corinthians2:1 who were preaching to the Corinthians. Timothy had a Jewish mother, Eunice.

In the text, it is actually Paul speaking from the perspective of Jews who were part of the old covenant, and why he compared salvation in Jesus, to what they had been promised to them.

This can be seen in the natural of Paul's words....

2Corinthians 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

....and in verse 7

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

The whole reference is that salvation in Jesus is the new covenant which God promised them who had the old covenant as promised in Jeremiah 31. The new covenant to the Jews became the gospel of salvation to the gentiles. Paul was sent to preach the gospel of salvation to the gentiles.

Acts 13:47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

1 Corinthians 11:25
After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

According to your claim, you do not need to partake of the Lord's Supper, because you were never part of the old covenant, and therefore since the Lord's Supper is a new covenant observance, it has no relevance to you (nor has it had for any Believer for the last 2,000 years).
Jesus was in the company of Jews at the last supper.

Taking part in the Lord's supper is done in similitude, in remembrance of Jesus. It is not because of covenant reasons. And it is not mandatory, because then it becomes works based salvation.
 
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keras

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"Praise God; He will Redeem, restore, and reinstate His faithful people."

Now you're talking sense.
Good; so you realize at last that the Redemption, Restoration and Reinstatement into their heritage, are the people whose ancestors God chose to be the Fathers of His people.
We can't identify them, but for sure God knows who they are. Amos 9:8-9
The term new covenant has relevancy only to them who were part of the old covenant.
More Douggish!
The new Covenant is for all Christians. The Jews reject it.
But as Jesus came to save the Lost tribes of Israel, then the New covenant is for them; US Christians!
 
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jgr

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And Jesus in those verses was speaking to Jews who the old covenant applied.

Jesus was speaking to all who would believe on His name for all time, both Jew and Gentile.

Sunday School kindergarten stuff.

Any attempt to racialize Christ's New Testament in His Blood is the ultimate heterodoxy.

"Us" are the Jewish apostles, Paul and Timothy, in 2Corinthians2:1 who were preaching to the Corinthians. Timothy had a Jewish mother, Eunice.

"Us" was the Corinthian Church to whom Paul wrote his epistle, comprised of both Jews and Gentiles.

More Sunday School kindergarten stuff.

More attempted racialization of the gospel message.

Taking part in the Lord's supper is done in similitude, in remembrance of Jesus. It is not because of covenant reasons. And it is not mandatory, because then it becomes works based salvation.

Yes, the New Covenant is irrelevant and has been for 2,000 years.

The Lord's Supper observance of the New Covenant is irrelevant and has been for 2,000 years.

Are you familiar with Galatians 1:8?

I suspect that you would have appalled even the Galatian judaizers.

But I also suspect that you may not even believe your own claims and assertions.
 
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Douggg

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More Douggish!
The new Covenant is for all Christians. The Jews reject it.
But as Jesus came to save the Lost tribes of Israel, then the New covenant is for them; US Christians!
Jesus said go not the way of the gentiles at that time..

Jesus was speaking to all who would believe on His name for all time, both Jew and Gentile.
Them in the room with Jesus were Jews. Jesus is God. In Jeremiah 31, the new covenant is to be with the hourse of Israel and the house of Judah. At the time Jesus made the new covenant Israel and Judah had not be reunited into one kingdom. Regardless, God is not speaking about gentiles.

31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
 
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keras

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Jesus said go not the way of the gentiles at that time..
My point that you and most fail to see, is that we Christians ARE the House of Israel and are currently regarded by the Jews; as Gentiles.

Your comment above shows your bias toward the Jews, so they remain on earth, while you think you will be in heaven. Not going to happen!
Who did the Apostles evangelize? Gentiles! WE accepted the Gospel and we are the true Israel of God.
 
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Douggg

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My point that you and most fail to see, is that we Christians ARE the House of Israel and are currently regarded by the Jews; as Gentiles.
There were no Christians at the time Jesus said go not the way of the gentiles. Christians are not the house of Israel. I have proved that over and over with Ezekiel 39:21-29.

Your comment above shows your bias toward the Jews, so they remain on earth, while you think you will be in heaven. Not going to happen!
Who did the Apostles evangelize? Gentiles! WE accepted the Gospel and we are the true Israel of God.
My comments are not biased toward anyone. I am stating the reality of the text.

Jeremiah 31:10 Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.

Jeremiah 31 is not talking about the church.

Rapture to heaven soon to take place. For them who believe it. Others, not so.

The apostles evangelized both Jews and Gentiles. To become a new creation Christ.
 
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keras

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Christians are not the house of Israel. I have proved that over and over with Ezekiel 39:21-29.
But the House of Israel is Christians!
It cannot be otherwise. As you have seen in the Dispensation Refuted thread, I prove that the Lost 10 tribes are those who have accepted the Gospel. There is ONLY one people of God. Ephesians 4:4-6, John 17:20-23
Jeremiah 31:10 Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.
Jeremiah 31 is not talking about the church.
WE Christians ARE the 'sheep' of Jesus. John 10:1-27, Matthew 15:24 And He will gather us to the holy Land. Ezekiel 34:11-16, Micah 7:14
Rapture to heaven soon to take place. For them who believe it. Others, not so.
You will have to answer to the Lord for promoting and teaching false theories. Particularly for designating those who reject the 'rapture' to Tribulation or worse.
 
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Jerryhuerta

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1 Peter 1
10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

You is the dispersion in its entirety, which as has been shown unquestionably included Gentiles.

Whether the prophets were or were not aware, the grace of which they prophesied was declared by Peter to "come unto you", Jew and Gentile alike, without distinction.

And Hosea (Romans 9:24-26) was a prophet who did not "know nothing".

Your allegations are false.

Your terminal case of Biological Supersessionitis is clouding your thinking.

You were trying to dismiss that God reinstates Ephraim as a chosen people in Hosea 2:23, the elect individuals who comprise Ephraim. They are not gentiles. It’s a simple fact that some people in our modern society are descendants of the ten northern tribes of Ephraim and some are not. Supersessionists can grumble all they want but this fact still stands. When the inerrancy of scripture is upheld, the Old Testament texts concerning the restoration of the elect of Ephraim pertain to the descendants of the ten northern tribes and those concerning the elect gentiles pertain to those who are not descendants of the ten tribes. Your comments make no such distinctions so they are anachronistic, anthropologically as well as scripturally.

Your interpretation ends the inerrancy of scripture in that it no longer maintains the OT as a guide for the original addressees, as well as succeeding generations. The inerrancy of the OT is shattered when the prophets are interpreted as in error as to the identity of Ephraim, or that the ten northern tribes become synonymous with the gentiles, undistinguishable by God as to who is a descendant of Ephraim and who is not. God’s omniscience is called into question if he is unable to make such a distinction in the end and having ordained it to the prophets who lived thousands of years before its consummation. The prophets are simply incapable of relating future events concerning their people to their contemporaries and their future descendants is such an interpretation as yours and supersessionism that attacks the inerrancy of the OT.
 
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Jerryhuerta

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You've avoided the prophet Hosea in Romans 9:24-26.

But this is precisely why I wrote your comments are anachronistic; not all Israelites are Jews! Your perception implies Paul is merely speaking of “Jews” in Romans 9:24, which is a shallow perception in light of the fact he is addressing who is true Israel among Israel. He is obviously employing hyperbole and means Israel; God has his elect, vessels of mercy, amongst the Israelites as well as the gentiles. Verses 25-26 cite Hosea 2:23 pertaining the descendants of Israel, the ten northern tribes, that are redeemed and then sown throughout the world, which carries over from the previous verse concerning Israel and the succeeding one from Isaiah 10:22. The context supports my perception and not yours and any notion that the “gentiles” were sown in the world to spread the gospel is anachronistic, anthropologically as well as scripturally.
 
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