Disinformation on 'wine'

[BigDave]

This whole section has been badly rendered in the KJV.
(and I should know, I'm a Nazarite).

Can you explain what you mean by the paragraph? I am choosing to assume this isn't as 'unhumble' as it looks and am hoping you can enlighten me on this. What does being a Nazarite have to do with knowing when an interpretation is wrong?

 

[BigDave]

What amazes me is that while agreeing more and more with my position,
people don't seem to grasp what the consequences are.

Hmmm...what consequences are you referring to? If you mean the dangers of overindulging in alcohol, I don't think anyone here disagrees with you on them. Where we would disagree is your seeming equating of 'drinking moderately' with 'getting drunk'.

If you mean some sort of spiritual consequences, then yeah, I am not grasping that at all...but then you keep making references to being a Nazarite and those are flabbergasting me as well since they don't seem to line up with what Scripture I know about being a Nazarite.

Thank you for conceding some of the facts.
If I have overstated the evidence on my side, I am happy to tone down some claims.

Since I never really disagreed with you on those facts, I would exactly call it 'conceeding' them

As to the evidence, its not that you overstated it as much as just created fallacious arguments from it. The last two sources you need to especially look at as they contradict your central claim that Jews in Jesus time didn't use alcoholic wine in the Passover. These are references to Mevushal wine - boiling of the wine, not to preserve it unfermented, but boiling to make the already fermented wine unsuitable for pagan practices and thus 'kosher'.

If indeed these references are what modern Jews claim them to be (and I know of no historical evidence to suggest otherwise), then you will have to conceed that one central claim of your - that the Last Supper wine could *not* have been alcoholic - is false.

 

[IgnatiusOfAntioch]

Actually, we know how wine was made at that time. It is the same Kosher process followed by Orthodox Hebrew winemakers today. You are kidding yourself if you don't think they drank wine in moderation.

 

[BigDave]

Paul criticizes some members of the Corinthian church for gorging on the bread and wine at the Lord's Supper while others end up hungry and without wine. It's clear that the wine is fermented, because he mentions people are getting drunk on it. His criticism is that not enough people are getting their fair share of the (fermented) wine!

I will have to disagree slightly with this. Yes, Pauls criticism is that people were being gluttons and drunkards at the Lords Supper, but it was *not* because he felt everyone should get their fair share. Instead, he points out that eating for the purpose of getting full or drinking for the purpose of getting inebriated was inappropriate for the Lords Supper. He tells them if they are hungry to eat at home - *not* to 'share the food/drink equitably'.

However, the fact that he doesn't criticise them for drinking alcohol but merely the manner in which they do is telling in itself. Obviously Paul had no problems with them drinking alcoholic wine or else this would have been a great time to mention it to them. Instead, he just tells them to 'tone it down' or 'do it at home' - that the Lords supper was not a time for 'partying', NOT that drinking itself was wrong.

 

[GraceInHim]

I would say wine was fermented, why did Jesus speak about the new wine-skin and the old wine-skin - and also the wedding - Jesus made the best wine which the Master of the wedding said they only serve first... and the bad, which is not fermented all the way was for last.... 2 different wines... cannot be grapejuice