I have a question.
This was posted as the reason for closing My first gay thread:
Athene
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This is a fascinating discussion and some of the posts make very good reading, however referring to homosexuality as an abomination is just not ok under our new FSGs which state that one should post with respect for other people. Respectful and informed debate is our MO, and try as I might I can not see how allowing the use of phrases such as 'homosexuality is an abomination' will help us achieve our goal of turning E&M around into a place where respectful discussion takes place.
Unfortunately I will have to close this thread.
I understand that what you want to foster is respect for others, and prevent the opportunity for people to simply attack others as a wolf in sheep's clothing, in an attempt to demand that even gay people are one's neighbors, and should be treated with the courtesy you would give to anyone else.
However, most Christians point to Leviticus (ignoring the rest of the verses, because they are inconvenient, or not observed by anyone, such as not sleeping in the same bed as your wife during her menstral cycle), and then claim it is not their words, but that of God.
Now, they are claiming that homosexuality is an abomination according to God, and that it is not their condemnation, but God's, and they are simply agreeing.
There are others who struggle with this, reading the two verse so oft quoted in the obscure book, and he feel that it is wrong, and a sin, but feel like by voicing their religious views, they are considered being disrespectful.
As a gay man, i have heard them more times than I can count, often misquoted by people (claiming, for example, that S&G was destroyed solely because of homosexuality, while the instance was clearly one of gangrape, not wanting to have a loving monogamous relationship with the angels, and Ezekial and other passages point out that they were arrogant, unwelcoming to visitors, had much wealth but did not look after the poor, the young, or the old - were basically lovers of self, and acted as such.)
If one truly struggled or was concerned with homosexuality, they would certainly scour the bible, as many of us did in our youth, looking for some understanding, some guidance, some explanation of our "otherness" that seemed to arrive during our adolescence. I often think of Metamorphasis, the man who suddenly wakes up one day a cockroach, suddenly hated and rejected, and confused about how such a thing could happen.
If one is to truly understand what the bible says about homosexuality, one has to be free to voice their opinions freely as well. Most of us homosexuals have had rough lives. We are called sissy, the "f" word, thrown into lockers by those of the world. By those who claim to believe in Jesus, we are told that homosexuality is an abomination, that we do not have the ability to love, that it is sinful and hateful to God, and sometimes, the Christian will even have the guts to show their true colors, and claim that God hates homosexuals themselves, which is more of a reflection of their lack of love, than God's, and their lack of humilty, suggesting that God loves them, and not you.
I've been through it all. I've been called really terrible names, been told that God hates me, hates my love for my partner and all the joy it brings, had people try to quote Romans, that clearly states that the people were worshipping animal gods, and having same sex relations as part of their worship of the creation, and try to compare that to two people having a loving relationship. They claim that it is God's words, when it is their own lack of God's love and mercy, which they selfishly give themselves, but are unable to grant gays, as Simon doubted Christ when he showed love for the prostitute, because Simon could not offer to him himself, looked at her with condemnation and thought her very lowly, and thus, no Son of God would love her, and allow her in his presence either.
And yet, Jesus showed Simon, through his own admission, that his love and devotion paled to that shown by the prostitute. Jesus taught him something, and I believe that Simon, as opposed to many of the others, because of his own admission, learned something. He was humbled before God, and put lower than someone whom he thought so undeserving of respect and love, due to his own pride and selfishness. I wonder if he then walked away, looking very differently at the prostitutes and tax collectors, whom he once prided himself on being holier than, being put in the place that he judged them down to, seeing them differently than he had for so much of his life. I wonder if he went back to the temple, and wondered who of the Pharisees also was not loving God, but simply themselves, and to arrogant in their pride and egos to admit how completely wrong they had been, of how wrong and inaccurately they had taught and told others.
Unless we allow for freedom of thought, and opinion, we don't allow for learning, we don't allow for examination of belief or claims of knowledge of God, and thus, continue in darkness. Imagine that Jesus, rather than speak up and challenge a Pharisee, and challenge his love of his neighbor, his love of God himself, or his understand of what God is and wants of us, said nothing, allowed Simon to say nothing, and the prostitute went her way. Simon would then leave, thinking Christ a fraud for not knowing that she was a prostitute, and continue in darkness. The prostitute would continue believing the Pharisee that she doesn't deserve respect, while they do, and that they are loved more by God.
Nothing changes, nothing heals.
Some of my words, which feel as if they are flying out of another part of me, and not my words at all, but said with an authority and knowledge that I know is true to the core, challenges one who claims to speak for God, when they may be speaking from their own darkness of their hearts. They may mask their hatred for gays in a misquote from Leviticus, but it has to be let out to expose it, and allow the HS to speak to their heart, and allow them, like Simon, to learn, and humble themselves, and listen to the love of the HS and God, or choose to be like the other Pharisees, who simply treated Christ as a threat to their own selfishness and status, who questioned Christ and condemned him for simply demonstrating love for those whom they could not.
One has to have that choice. One also has to acknowledge that many Christians claim that homosexuality as we understand it today, is exactly what was spoken of in Leviticus, that only speaks of same sex sex, and not same sex relationships.
To simply shut down the thread because of such things is to suggest that one must also not quote the bible itself.
However, in freeing that up, in allowing people to claim what the bible says, maybe they can see that it says something very different than what they believe when they approach it in love, rather than condemnation, and a justification for their lack of love.
Perhaps they will see that they aren't better than their gay and lesbian neighbors, but loved equally by God, and in so, see their own lack of love, and better understand God's love itself.
I'm 45. I've grown a tough skin. I was once fooled, listening to those who claim to love God, that I, myself, was unloveable by God, even hated. I believed man, and not God, and not the Bible. It led to years of shame, of self hatred, and a deep depression that I fortunately didn't succeed in killing myself, all because I believed the lies. And I came out the other side, understood that I am loved deeply by God, and anyone who claims differently doesn't know God, as Simon didn't.
God, who was great, and powerful, chose to be human, poor, mocked, beaten, spit on, all because he wanted to demonstrate his ability to love in the face of cruelty, to challenge the way people believed in God and what he wants from us, which is to love one another and be happy. He even allowed them to kill him, because he threatened them so much, but the love of God cannot be killed. So, people appear, and are burnt at the stake for blasphemy, as Jesus was ridiculed for showing the darkness of those in power by loving everyone equally. Martin Luther King preached love and equality, and again and again, someone appears, and has to take a beating, but they do it in the name of love, for their love and dedication to love, to heal this world, even if it means giving up their own lives.
So, having someone say, "Homosexuality is an abomination" isn't so bad, considering what others have had to endure. And it opens up the discussion of what the bible does and doesn't say, and truly questions the heart of those who use it to support their own anger and condemnation, as well as helps understanding for those who feel that homosexuality is a sin, but are unsure how they can love their gay neighbor by denying them the companionship that they give themselves, and understand it's great importance. Most people in the church are simply going to agree with the sin issue, and not offer support of what "love your neighbor" truly means when Christ says it, thinking it no different that asking an alcoholic not to drink, while drinking in front of them, and seeing it the burden of their neighbor that God has put upon them, and not their own lack of understanding, of seeing the person as themselves and an equal.
People need to be at least offered another alternative, to have their voices expressed, so that they can be challenged, so that they can question their hearts, their true motives for such statements as "homosexuality is an abomination", whether it is their own feeling, or that of God, and whom they are truly following.
I feel for such people, who feel that God has put them in an impossible place, to either boldly say that homosexuality is an abomination, and obey and believe God's Word, or to love their neighbor as themselves, in allowing, say, gay marriage, or tolerating gay relationships, especially when "gay people" for these christians, are not some faceless people, but their coworkers, their sibling, or their friends.
And maybe that is what God has done: forced Christians, those who follow him, and claim to love God, to love others and treat them with respect, and care about their welfare as much as they do their own if not more, to choose between what they have read in, say, Leviticus, and what they feel the Spirit calling them to do. God has put Christians in a dilemma to either follow their own prejudices, or challenge them, and follow God.
It's created a disonance, unless one does not have love for his neighbor, and sees gays as simply his enemy who will get what is coming to them. But for those that truly seek the importance of what Christ commanded, they are being put to a choice: to find a way to love their gay brothers and sisters, while still obeying God, and believing the Word.
To those who use the Bible as the Pharisees, it will become an issue of legality, of what does the word "of" mean, of disecting all of the details, and being far more confused than when they began, usually resolving to act as they believe, rather than the nature of the Spirit.
However, to those whom really know God, who really understand the amazing power and ability of his love to transform and heal us, so that we can do the same to others in turn, its a riddle of what to do, but easily solvable.
Christ said that unless one becomes like a child, they cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven. That's because the answer is so easy, so simplistic, that so many people think that it can't possibly be the solution.