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Featured Dinosaurs existed!

Discussion in 'Creationism' started by SkyWriting, Jan 24, 2020.

  1. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Well-Known Member

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    and you completely missed everything else.
    If animals reproduced without dying, the entire world would be overfilled.
    They also had to eat, why?
    If they cannot die, they would not have to eat.
    So your position falls to pieces.
     
  2. coffee4u

    coffee4u Well-Known Member

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    The creation or more specifically the Garden of Eden was a type or shadow of the New Heavens and New World to come. God knew it would not last long enough to become overpopulated. He knew Adam would sin, death both physical and spiritual would come upon man and that Jesus would die to save them. This wasn't news to God, he didn't say oops, better come up with a plan, it was the whole plan from the beginning.

    Jesus ate after he was resurrected, eating does not have to be connected to living/starving.
    Luke 24:
    36 While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.”

    37 They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. 38 He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? 39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”
    40 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. 41 And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” 42 They gave him a piece of broiled fish, 43 and he took it and ate it in their presence.


    The Old Testament is full of such shadows. You will find verses that show you the imperfect or unfinished form in the Old Testament and the perfect or completed form in the New Testament. This is why Jesus is called the Second Adam.
     
  3. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Well-Known Member

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    again, I'm going to mention there is no mention of how long Adam was in the garden. time wasn't counted.
     
  4. coffee4u

    coffee4u Well-Known Member

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    Obviously not that long since they had yet to have any children.
    28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it.

    And time was counted

    14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years,

    Sin caused death, this is why it took a perfect death for us to be saved. It isn't coincident that forgiveness of sins required sinless blood and death. They are all linked together.
    Planned for before the world was made.
    1 Peter 1:17-21

    18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.
     
  5. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Well-Known Member

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    I want to bring out that word "obviously" when there is no given number of days, years, or any time frame that they were in the garden. You make an ASSUMPTION. They didn't have any children for quite some time, and their descendants also waited until what we'd consider advanced age now to have children.
    All of this is based on an assumption that Adam sinned pretty much as soon as he was created, and that his lifespan was counting the time spent in the Garden where those times would have no meaning. When you're in eternity, are you going to count the years?
    Times change now because of our present condition, 1. our aging and mortality, and 2. our attempts to lessen the suffering of our condition through advancement of knowledge and technology.
    If we were in Eternity, or in an Eden like condition, years and years and years would go by completely without knowing it because you're not suffering, your time is not limited, and there won't be technological advancement to distinguish past from present because there are not unmet needs that we need to develop such knowledge and technology to solve. There won't even be children growing up that have milestones that mark the passing of time, neither in Eden, nor in eternity.
    I'm not going to put an age on the earth based on the bible because there is an unspecified length of time that is very important. I read it and now all I can say is Proverbs 25:2
    I see something concealed, and only God knows the absolute truth of it.
    Let's also flip this around, we have another unspecified length of time. The length of time between Christ on the Cross, and His second coming. If you were to read the bible and make AN ASSUMPTION, you will ALWAYS assume that the return of Christ is imminent. People look around them at the world and see how bad things are and always assume, "the end is nigh" We've been in "the latter days" for almost 2000 years, and we still have to humble ourselves before God and say "I don't know when the second coming will be"
    Books of prohecy in the old testament like Daniel, and the new, like Revelation, give us time frames at the the end, and it can be said with some confidence that we know what's happening within 3.5 years before the day of the Lord, and 3.5 years after, but we have no idea how many years precede that.
     
  6. coffee4u

    coffee4u Well-Known Member

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    You don't seem to get the point that the garden was a type or shadow of the new Heaven's and World. The shadows in the OT are never complete, they either fail in some way or a direct symbolism to a NT happening.

    They were not in the garden long because Eve would have become pregnant. That isn't an assumption, they were told to be fruitful.
    “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it."
    They were young fertile healthy adults without birth control. How long do you think her non-pregnant state lasted?
    We have no idea how many children they had but it would have been a lot. The offspring listed are not the only children, they are the ones of importance.

    They didn't need technology, God gave them the moon, sun and stars to judge time by.
    14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years,

    I already posted both of these above.


    I wasn't talking about the age of the earth. The earth could have easily sat void for some time before God started creating, that's neither here nor there.

    I never mentioned anytime frame for the second coming, that isn't for us to know, but to God it is imminent.

    Matthew 24:36-44

    No One Knows That Day and Hour
    36 “But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son but the Father only. 37 For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, 39 and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.


    Noah and the global flood are both referenced as being real as well.



     
  7. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Well-Known Member

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    I never said the global flood wasn't real. I am only saying that the time that Adam and Eve spent in Eden was unspecified. Nothing was as it is for us now. They did not even know they were naked. As I said, people in Genesis did not start having children until 60+ years quite commonly. Adam did not "know" Eve until after they left the garden. It's in Genesis 4. The time is unspecified and there's really no way to make a solid guess. We have no real time frame unless you make the assumption that Adam's 930 years started counting in the Garden. I think it's quite possible that they only started counting years when they were expelled. They then had NEED to count years because they needed to count seasons for growing crops, knowing when it would be cold, knowing when it would be warm, knowing when it would be rainy more often, knowing when it would be dry. But in the Garden they had need of none of these things, there was no curse, and fruit grew on the trees readily available and God gave to them every fruit, even the fruit of life, only the fruit of knowledge of good and evil was forbidden from them. They were naked and totally naive of that, they had no concept of death, they may not have had concept of sex. Man isn't driven by instinct to the degree beasts are. We don't instinctively know things like animals do, we have to learn them.
    So. is it possible that Adam sinned right out the gate and their time in Eden was short? Sure.
    Is it also possible that Adam and Eve had been in Eden for ages, thousands, millions, billions of years without keeping track? I'd say it's possible.
    I'm going to just be humble and say "I don't know" I'm not going to make an assumption on information not revealed.
     
  8. coffee4u

    coffee4u Well-Known Member

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    Nothing in Genesis 4 says that was the first time, just that he lay with her and she conceived Cain. If it was the first time, even more reason the time in the garden was short, maybe even the next day.

    They certainly would need to count seasons once they left, but again that doesn't mean they didn't count days before when God said that was one of the reasons for the moon, sun and stars.

    I am quite sure given the command to be fruitful and multiply that they knew what they had to so.

    I knew you wanted billion of years-and the only reason for that is you believe in evolution. Yet you say I assume things when I am using the Bible and verses that plainly say that death brought in sin. You think man and science has the answers more than Genesis. You want me to even give your idea's thought, back it up with scripture.
     
  9. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Well-Known Member

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    I did, I backed it up with concealed details in scripture that you make assumptions on.
    You are STILL making an assumption. You're assuming that right out the gate Adam and Eve were having sex, immediately. But that's not in scripture. The first time they do in scripture, is in Genesis 4. You are making a bold assumption that is unbiblical. It is possible they did, and possible they did not have sex while still in the garden. I don't know, because scripture does not specify. You're assuming that they did, and treating it as fact, and that it's "obvious".
    God is revealed through both His word and His creation. if the accounts don't appear to line up, then something is wrong. God can't lie so neither scripture nor nature is false, but our measurements can be wrong, and our interpretations can be wrong. Something is off, perhaps both. You'd have to come up with a really strong argument to convince me that God would create nature to appear billions of years old while in fact it is only 6000 years old, because that would be deceptive and God does not deceive. It would also be in vain to do that, what purpose would it have to make the earth appear BILLIONS of years older than it really is? All that has led to is people not believing in God at all! Is that what God wants? To deceive people and let them become atheists and go to Hell? That's not what 1 Peter 3:9 says. God does not lie and God does not do things in vain.
    Your assumptions bring the two accounts of God, scripture and nature, into conflict, which isn't the state they're supposed to be in. Nature should back up scripture but that does not happen with many interpretations. Genesis isn't wrong, but our interpretation of it can be.
     
  10. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Well-Known Member

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    Let's put this into perspective. When measurements are made to determine the age of something, they're done with the assumption that there is no God, and that earth and the universe is very old, so the measurements and estimates based on those measurements and assumptions are going to come to conclusions that fit those assumptions. They're going to be off. Do I believe that the world is 4 billion+ years old. No, not likely, because those estimates were made based on assumptions, many measurements based on assumptions, especially when it comes to radiocarbon dating. However do I believe that the world is 6300 years old as people have calculated using genealogy from the bible. Again no, not likely. Because that age was estimated based on assumptions too. The two accounts do not agree because both assume things to extremes. What we have is an estimated minimum based on assumptions that there were no gaps neither in the "formless and void" phase of Genesis 1, or Adam's life in the Garden before the fall, like the first thing Adam did when God told them not to eat the fruit they went ahead and ate it... and we have a maximum based on an assumption that there is no God and that it had to take a long time to happen on its own. Actual age is something only God knows at this point because nobody has gone and made measurements without assumptions.
     
  11. coffee4u

    coffee4u Well-Known Member

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    You are backing up evolution and billions of years with what scripture?

    God told them specifically to be fruitful and multiply. Or are you saying they were disobedient on this?

    And you are assuming Genesis 4 was the first time when it says nothing about that.

    See this is what is wrong with evolutionists. It doesn't appear billions of years old. You only think it appears that old because you are listening to secular scientists. If you had never heard or read a single thing by secular science and only had the Bible would you come up with billions of years from the Bible alone?
    I challenge that it would not even enter your thoughts.
    So if its secular science that has put this idea in your head at least be honest about it and say that's where you get it from. Stop saying scripture indicates billions of years because it does not.

    Who says they are correct? Why do you listen to them? Are they God? Are they infallible?
    I walk outside and I see God and his creation. Do I see billions of years? No, I don't listen to a word that comes out of their mouths. Because I know the world as God created it is no longer here to test. I know that all their tests are messed up and wrong because the world underwent a flood, the vapour canopy came down letting in space radiation, volcanoes erupted causing electric activity across the earth crust.
    They assume that their dating methods are foolproof when they are completely deluded.
    Recent New Zealand lava flows yield ‘ages’ of millions of years.
    Radioactive “Dating” Failure

    I must be sounding a gong in an empty room. I don't know how many times I have to say I never said 6,000 years. Again, that is your thoughts, not mine.
    I said 15 to 50 thousand and I have also said that the earth may have sat void for an undetermined amount of time. None of this takes away from 6 day creation.

    Also God has and will send a powerful delusion on people who have turned away from him.
    2 Thessalonians 2:11
    For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie
    That is scripture.


    This is how it appears to you and only because you have taken the words of men to heart as being the truth.
    Lets look at one link, Three Pieces of Evidence That Prove Evolution is a Fact (lol) Three Pieces of Evidence That Prove Evolution is a Fact

    1) common ancestors.
    2)We See Species Changing Over Time.
    3)The Remnants of Past Generations

    And you talk about assumptions, these are the biggest and wildest assumptions of all time.
    Animals are similar because the same creator made them al out of the same material, no one was there to see any of what they claim and again its all how they interpret what they see. God made kinds, they had a huge wealth of DNA that has spread out over time.
    yet evolution claims it all started as a one-cell creature who somehow miraculously gained enough DNA to become a man.

    I will tell you what lead me away from God, a school that had a history teacher teaching evolution and nuns teaching creation. I thought they were all a bunch of hypocrites because if these people all believed the Bible why was their two views and how did this view of evolution fit with what we just learnt in scripture class? Because it didn't. Even as a somewhat agnostic teenager I could see that. I was like, believe it all or don't believe any of it. I believed in evolution because that seemed to be what was normal, while creation was put down-just like it is in here. Then I became a Christian and was conflicted, then I was put onto Ken Ham and he changed my life. You can mock him all you like, instead of not believing, my thoughts did a 180 and became a creationist because what he said about no death before sin made sense, the typology in the Bible made sense, the overall plan of God wanting a people to himself and the New Heavens and World made sense. While I might not agree with him on every point, such as 6 thousand years, because I don't think this would be enough time from the flood to how things are now, he changed my life. So no, creationism has strengthed my faith tenfold because I was no longer hoodwinked by secular science.

    Scripture does back up scripture, secular science and scripture don't. God told us what happened it's yours or anybody's choice to bring in an outside source to it. If it wasn't a choice we would all believe the same. You choose to believe secular science is correct when it tells you age dates.
    Don't forget I said the earth could have sat void. Let's say it really did sit void for a billion of our years. Just sitting without form, maybe a lump of rock, I don't know. Perhaps that gives an age of a billion years. That doesn't mean the creation itself is old. I believe from creation that it has only been thousands of years. How many thousands I am not putting a date on. I also have no issue with there being no gap and that secular science is also completely wrong on its dating of rocks. You won't read or consider a single thing I said anyway so I think this will be my last response here.
     
  12. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Well-Known Member

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    The evidence for an earth older than 6000 years is all around, you can count annual layers of freezing and thawing of ice cores and get over 6000 years. Now I'll admit that the really old ice cores they use radiocarbon dating and other dating systems that make an assumption of how much radiocarbon or other isotope was in the ice initially which is, as I keep saying, basing age on assumptions which is wrong. Ultimately I'm going to digress and defer to only God knows the actual age because our measurements are based on assumptions and our interpretations are based on assumptions. Meditating on both of these concepts have been humbling to me, that I can honestly say I do not know the age and only God does. We're not perfect in any way and so some mysteries will be concealed from us or impervious to our reasoning. So I say, older than 6300, younger than 4.3 billion for the earth and younger than 14 billion or whatever the estimate is on the age of the universe. Accounting for a possible gap where no time was given when the earth and universe were formless and void which actually agrees with physics in the big bang (the act of creation undoubtedly manifested as a big bang, that's where our observations of the universe expanding and cosmic microwave background show), which would agree with models where the universe is older than the relatively younger earth. Is to have a space where everything was formless and void. The models of even a naturalist big bang say that hundreds of millions of years passed before the first stars formed. I'm not going to say hundreds of millions of years because that's based on an assumption, but some period of time passed between the universe's sudden creation, and the earth being given form. It reconciles observation and scripture. I just won't assume time periods because it's now apparent to me, that we don't really know we only make guesses and flawed assumptions. A gap also explains how we can see light from stars much much further than 6300 light years away from us without having to bend the laws of physics, you just say time wasn't given until light was created, because it doesn't say there was any measured time before that. Still consistent with 6 days. The sun and moon weren't created until the 4th day, so I'm always a little bit hazy about the meaning of evening and morning without a sun and moon to really mark those 24 hour periods. Were the first 3 days longer than 24 hours? I don't know. A gap where Adam wasn't counting the days in Eden, can explain why earth has ice cores with all these tens of thousands of years of layers of freezing and thawing, and have an older earth, while simultaneously having 6300ish years of Human history, outside the garden, and still have Man created in the 6th day and have days 4 5 and 6 certainly be 24 hours, without creating conflicts between the two ways God is revealed.
    as for evolution, that whole word has been poisoned for you, I get it, but what it really means is hereditary changes within populations of organisms. It's just applied genetics. It's basic concept is sound that between genetic modifications (which most random mutations are deleterious, they are incompatible with life the chance of multiple instances of the SAME mutation being beneficial in a breeding population are so absurdly small that I see only an act of God actually producing these changes, there is intelligence behind it), sexual reproduction, and environmental stress/niches that cause one genetic variation to prosper over others. I still see it as an act of creation by God, because God wrote the genetic code, and while microevolution can kind of happen on its own (evolution within a species, think humans with blue eyes being concentrated in certain regions), we've never seen an instance of macroevolution or even really solid evidence of it, it's again, based on the assumption that if microevolution works, then eventually it leads to macroevolution. But what you see in the fossil record isn't transitional species where it's still the same species but now it has these different traits and then gradually more different traits and then over time you see a new species arise and the old dies out. What you really see is jumps. You see species 1, then species 2, new species entirely, though it resembles species 1 in many ways. But there was a dramatic change very suddenly, say within 1 generation. Then you see species 3, again resembling the first 2 species but clearly different, and species 2 and 1 eventually die off. If anything, God was causing those new species to branch off within a generation. "after their own kind" is.. vague. "kind" might not mean species, it could be a taxonomical family.
    It always seemed almost silly to me that Noah would be able to fit millions of species in the Ark, till you understand he didn't fit millions of species, he fit hundreds of kinds, and from those representative species of each kind, God diversified them again. There are animals that went extinct at the end of the ice age (when the flood happened, do you think it was all just rain? Ice sheets melted too, where I live there are plains absolutely scoured flat by massive floods from glacial lakes unleashing)
     
  13. coffee4u

    coffee4u Well-Known Member

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    Now that I am absolutely sure you didn't read a single word of my post -because once again you mention 6,000 years. Tell me what did I say about that? You would know if you had read my post.

    I won't be reading or answering you again since you choose not to read a word of what I wrote.
     
  14. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Well-Known Member

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    The 6000 years thing was referring to the lower bound, the usual assumed age of the earth biblicly. You already assume longer than 6000 years, what's stopping you from believing millions or billions?
     
  15. coffee4u

    coffee4u Well-Known Member

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    It's 6 to 10 thousand traditionally but that is going by James Ussher. Millions or billions is only ever needed for evolution. There is a huge difference between 15-50 thousand and however many millions of years they think make evolution possible.
    I am also quite sure if God wanted it to be 6,000 it could be that as well. My only quibble with that figure is it came about from using the Bible as some kind of calculator and it also doesn't seem time enough for animal migration and plate movement after the ark.
     
  16. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Well-Known Member

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    Millions or Billions isn't needed, it's just a thing of not knowing so being open to older estimates unless scripture gives clear time and date on things. Like once we get to the later parts of the old testament we have historical corraboration to go with so we know the dates some of this happened. When we don't have human history to corroborate with the bible the other thing to corroborate is evidence in nature of things that happened. Like I said. I'm not one of these people that doubts a global flood, I drive through Eastern Washington and see clear evidence of such a flood happening. The flood happening at the end of the Ice Age makes sense Genesis 7:11 those fountains that broke up... ice sheets and glaciers.
     
  17. coffee4u

    coffee4u Well-Known Member

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    You mean the ice age after the flood because the volcanoes that erupted put ash into the atmosphere.
    I will never believe that it has been millions of years since creation as that makes no sense.
     
  18. steppinrazor

    steppinrazor Philippians 4:8, Proverbs 3:6 Supporter

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    I cant believe this thread is still going...the dinosaurs existed millions and millions of years ago, to not think that happen is just putting your head in the sand....in my humble opinion. It is so much fun to learn and sicover Gods creation through science..geology, biology, physics,...ect..how anyone can just deny those things just to (ignorantly and apathetically) say they just will bot listen to reason us baffling
     
  19. coffee4u

    coffee4u Well-Known Member

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    Easily because the Bible says land animals were made on day 6.

    And how anyone can (ignorantly and apathetically) believe the words of infallible men who weren't there is baffling. Do you see how rude you are? You are entitled to your faith-which is what it is, faith. You are not entitled to call us ignorant and apathetic, apathetic is the last thing that we are.
     
  20. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Well-Known Member

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    That makes no sense. The end of the ice age caused massive flooding as the glaciers melted.
     
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