Lost4words

Jesus I Trust In You
Supporter
May 19, 2018
10,943
11,698
Neath
✟1,002,191.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
God created man in His image. Anything before that was not created in the image of God. Was not truly human. The earth is billions of years old. Science can proove that. God gave us science.

I believe that dinosaurs existed millions of years ago.

The Bible is not a history or biology book, etc. Its very ofter misinterpreted and greatly misunderstood.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Brightmoon
Upvote 0

Cis.jd

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2015
3,613
1,484
New York, NY
✟140,465.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Well, add it up, God led me to Him by a circuitous route including many so-called 'conspiracy theories', geocentrism being the biggest one. You could read Galileo was Wrong, by Sungenis et al as a good starting point. Or watch the doco The Principle. Although this may come as a surprise, no experiment or observation has ever detected any of the 4 or 5 distinct motions of the earth through space claimed by the standard model. Idk how a person can accept the Gen creation account on its face and also endorse heliocentrism/ standard model cosmology.

I'm not even sure im supposed to take this post seriously or as a joke.
 
Upvote 0

Jamdoc

Watching and Praying Always
Oct 22, 2019
7,369
2,301
43
Helena
✟203,882.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Biblical history from Genesis 4 and on lines up with the history of civilization in this world.
However. One detail that is neglected in Genesis that I think is important, is the length of time that Adam and Eve were in Eden. It's always ASSUMED that it was a short time, however it isn't specified in the bible, and I'd argue when you're in a paradise, when you cannot die, time does not really have meaning aside from day and night. Adam's boss (God) probably didn't have a punch in time so just whenever he was up and tending to the garden he was up, went to sleep when it was dark, lived forever.. who counts days and years in that environment?

Is it possible that Adam's 930 years only started when Adam was expelled from Eden and the Earth was cursed? Is it possible that death was already a part of the world for plants, bacteria, fungus, and animals and the world is old, and the roughly 6300 years of biblical history only really starts being counted after Adam was cast out of the garden, and that Adam's sin bringing death was specifically for humans which were intended to live forever originally?

Think about it, when we get to the new earth, are we going to count days and years anymore when we can no longer die and there isn't going to be much change or development because we won't have unmet needs (the driving force behind technological advancement)?

People who propose a gap theory always put the gap between the creation of heaven and earth and then the 6 days of actually creating things. I think it's more possible that there is a gap, in biblical history, that exists after the 7th day, in the time that Adam and Eve lived in the Garden. how long is a mystery. But it could be even billions of years.

God is revealed through His word and through His creation, these two accounts should agree.
If an observation in the world suggests an older earth, or older universe than 6300 years, when biblical timelines suggest 6300 years assuming that Adam sinned almost right away in Eden, a matter of days rather than a longer period, then they appear to conflict each other rather than confirm each other. The bible can't lie but it can conceal information or omit information (Proverbs 25:2)
and would God make creation itself intentionally deceiving so that when we investigated it we'd come up with figures that don't line up with the bible? Does God deceive or lie? I don't believe He does.
So 2 things can be a source of error, either our measurements, which the difference between 6,300 years and 4+billion years is so vast, that it's not within margin of error, or our interpretations of scripture. Ask any group of people in a room after reading scripture and they will almost always have different interpretation of scripture. How many scisms and splits in denomination have happened over doctrinal differences based on interpretation of scripture?
I think there is likely to be some degree of error in both, both in our measurements, and in our interpretations of scripture. The length of time that Adam was in the garden being unspecified and therefore a mystery open to interpretation is one such source of error.
 
Upvote 0

Jamdoc

Watching and Praying Always
Oct 22, 2019
7,369
2,301
43
Helena
✟203,882.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
@Jamdoc Am I assuming correctly that would then require the the man and woman created in Genesis 1 not be the Adam and Eve created in the Garden?
That's another anomaly however I think that Genesis 1 is the "cliff notes" of creation given to Moses it's missing a lot of detail because it was never intended that God would describe to Moses how to create a universe, He gave an account sufficient for Moses' purpose which is, that He created the world, He created man, and that is why we should obey Him and worship Him. There is some other detail in the order of things being created, but a lot of people read into the language of Genesis and assume that God spoke everything into existence but if you read Genesis 1 carefully, he doesn't speak everything into existence there are separations where God speaks, and then a separate verse where God creates something, without specifying how. People make an assumption that speaking did the creating, but God took an entire day to create various things, while speaking is instant. That leaves a lot of room for science to discover the "how". DNA being a common blueprint to all life on the planet is a clue that God may have been engineering us from splicing DNA in a form of Theistic "evolution" rather than things poofing out of nothing. God specifically demonstrated in Genesis 2 with the creation of Eve that He has absolutely no problem creating life from previous life rather than speaking it into existence. God demonstrated speaking things into existence (specifically light, and I think plants was the other one where speaking and the plants just appeared suddenly without a separate verse for creating), breathing life into an inanimate object that He sculpted, and essentially cloning a life form to create another life form with modifications (in this case removing a Y chromosome and making her XX). God doesn't limit His acts of creation to one specific way and neither should we.

Ultimately this line of thinking has more questions than answers, it opens possibilities that only God knows for sure. Only God knows for sure how old the Earth is. We can make estimates based on measurements and observations or attempts to make a timeline based on assumptions in studying scripture, but because key details can be omitted, we won't know the exact dates till we can ask Him face to face.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SkyWriting
Upvote 0

Cis.jd

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2015
3,613
1,484
New York, NY
✟140,465.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Let's put it this way: the wisdom of God is foolishness to the world.
lets also put it this way: God's wisdom can't be proven factually wrong, so if you insist whatever beliefs you have are from God and they are silly because of evidence then your views are not of God.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Brightmoon
Upvote 0

Shrewd Manager

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.
Supporter
Aug 16, 2019
4,167
4,081
Melbourne
✟364,409.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
lets also put it this way: God's wisdom can't be proven factually wrong, so if you insist whatever beliefs you have are from God and they are silly because of evidence then your views are not of God.
Yes, I thought geocentrism was a joke when I first stumbled across it (praise God!). But it turns out to be factually based. Fully endorsed by the HS, both personally and Biblically. (Also endorsed by many top physicists.)
 
Upvote 0

Jamdoc

Watching and Praying Always
Oct 22, 2019
7,369
2,301
43
Helena
✟203,882.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Uh.. Geocentrism is something we can OBSERVE to be wrong..
probes that we send out into space to other planets ONLY work because our gravity and orbital equations are based on a heliocentric model, they would not work in a geocentric model.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Cis.jd

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2015
3,613
1,484
New York, NY
✟140,465.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Yes, I thought geocentrism was a joke when I first stumbled across it (praise God!). But it turns out to be factually based. Fully endorsed by the HS, both personally and Biblically. (Also endorsed by many top physicists.)
and this is why you need to re-evaluate the spirit behind your beliefs. Just going back to your statement on "God's wisdom being foolish to those who are not of him". This is a belief that many false prophets have had in defense of their views, from Joseph Smith, Harold Camping, and even those who have committed genocide. How do we just prove them invalid, with another Bible verse match?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Shrewd Manager

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.
Supporter
Aug 16, 2019
4,167
4,081
Melbourne
✟364,409.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Uh.. Geocentrism is something we can OBSERVE to be wrong..
probes that we send out into space to other planets ONLY work because our gravity and orbital equations are based on a heliocentric model, they would not work in a geocentric model.

Perhaps according to you. But not according to top physicists.
 
Upvote 0

Shrewd Manager

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.
Supporter
Aug 16, 2019
4,167
4,081
Melbourne
✟364,409.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
and this is why you need to re-evaluate the spirit behind your beliefs. Just going back to your statement on "God's wisdom being foolish to those who are not of him". This is a belief that many false prophets have had in defense of their views, from Joseph Smith, Harold Camping, and even those who have committed genocide. How do we just prove them invalid, with another Bible verse match?

Thanks but I surmise that like I did, you hold many assumptions which you haven't questioned and investigated. I would recommend that, on the basis that for a man to answereth a matter before he hears it, it's a folly and shame.
 
Upvote 0

Jamdoc

Watching and Praying Always
Oct 22, 2019
7,369
2,301
43
Helena
✟203,882.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Perhaps according to you. But not according to top physicists.

You're going to need to cite something because as I just said, all of our probes would have failed if we launched them according to heliocentric based orbital calculations but the solar system was truly geocentric.
Here's another case of people making ASSUMPTIONS about scripture after reading it and sticking to it as the hard truth.
 
Upvote 0

Cis.jd

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2015
3,613
1,484
New York, NY
✟140,465.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Thanks but I surmise that like I did, you hold many assumptions which you haven't questioned and investigated. I would recommend that, on the basis that for a man to answereth a matter before he hears it, it's a folly and shame.

I don't think I am holding assumption. You are the one claiming God has lead you to something false such geocentrism, so you are the one making assertions and claiming God as the source for it.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,279
8,499
Milwaukee
✟410,918.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Man died both spiritually and physically after eating the fruit.
Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned-

Biblical death is nephesh (נפש), meaning ‘living being’ or ‘soul’ only things with the soul count as Biblical death. Plants do not have soul.

Right. But scripture was never referring to physical death.
It was only referring to spiritual death. Physical death is inevitable.
 
Upvote 0

coffee4u

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2018
5,005
2,817
Australia
✟157,641.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Right. But scripture was never referring to physical death.
It was only referring to spiritual death. Physical death is inevitable.

Not in the garden it wasn't. The garden of Eden is a type or shadow of the New Heavens and New World to come. Adam himself is a shadow of Jesus.

God said the creation was very good. Unlike humans, God doesn't use those words lightly.
Genesis 1:31
God saw all that he had made, and it was very good.

Why would God give the animals and man only green plants for food if death was normal and fine.
Genesis 1
29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.


Why would the Bible say that death came in with sin if death was always there?
Romans 5:12

Death Through Adam, Life Through Christ
12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

1 Corinthians 15
21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

Death was part of the curse.
Genesis 3:19
19 By the sweat of your face
you shall eat bread
until you return to the ground,
for out of it you were taken;
you are dust,
and to dust you shall return.”

New heavens and new earth. No death.
If death was inevitable why would God call it a thief and an enemy?
1 Corinthians 15:25-26

For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

It's going to be destroyed because it wasn't part of the original creation.

Revelation 21:4
He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death' or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

 
Upvote 0

Jamdoc

Watching and Praying Always
Oct 22, 2019
7,369
2,301
43
Helena
✟203,882.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
In order for NO death to have existed prior to sin, all animals, and all plants, all bacteria, all fungi, all protists, everything would have to also not reproduce (In the new Earth where we will be eternal, we will no longer reproduce, because of this constraint, reproducing without death into infinity.. think about that). But the first commandment from the Lord was "Be fruitful and multiply" and the second commandment was Genesis 1:30.
Let's make sense of this. Death had to exist in some form, because otherwise the entire planet would be completely overrun, complete overpopulation. It did not exist with man, and note that they did not reproduce until after the fall.
Second, if it was impossible for anything to die, why did they have to eat? What would happen to them if they did not eat? Would an animal not starve to death if it just neglected to eat?
Why did Adam and Eve have to eat the fruit from the tree of life?
The explanation to me is, that the tree of life enhanced cellular division in a way that prevents aging and probably prevents sickness, and probably heals from injury rapidly, so that as long as you ate it, you would not die. But without the fruit of the tree of life, the body begins to fail, and will eventually die. Genesis 3:22 indicates that even with sin, if man had continued to eat from the tree of life, they would live forever.
Genesis 1 never mentions the creation of fungi and bacteria but they exist, and seem to be designed to recycle dead organisms.
So ultimately, the bible does NOT ever explicitly say that animals never died before the fall, within nature we have organisms specifically designed to process death, and we have a finite space where infinite reproduction with no death makes no sense and these animals had a biological need to eat and food was provided for them, which indicates that if they didn't eat, they'd starve.
Mankind lived forever because of the fruit of the tree of life, after man sinned God cut him off from the tree specifically so that he would not eat it and live forever, since then, man has died.
If you want to convince me that a finite sized planet was to have infinite reproduction without death, and that animals would not starve if they did not eat until Adam sinned, you're going to have to show me scripture where it specifically and explicitly states animal death did not exist prior to the fall. Animals weren't eating the fruit of the tree of life, so to me, that would lead to the possibility of them dying.
Now before Romans 8:22 is pulled out with a leap of logic to claim that means animals were immortal before Man sinned, of course all of creation groans, animals could maybe die of old age, and possibly injury or starvation before the fall, but it was made so much worse after the fall. Many argue that predatory animals did not exist before the fall, after the flood they absolutely did though, and do, and I would think that perhaps pathogenic bacteria and viruses did not exist prior to the fall either, the ground and creation were cursed when Adam sinned, competition for resources probably became much more tight, things could get infected with diseases, food might not grow because conditions became more hostile. It's not necessarily an all or nothing picture that is painted. That is an assumption people make in their interpretation. After the earth is made new, and there is no curse, that competition for resources won't be so fierce as things will grow readily.
Actually that makes me wonder though, in the glorified bodies, would we still need to eat and drink, we'll have the fruit of life available, but if someone would stop eating it for whatever reason would their body fail and they'd die physically?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

coffee4u

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2018
5,005
2,817
Australia
✟157,641.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
In order for NO death to have existed prior to sin, all animals, and all plants, all bacteria, all fungi, all protists, everything would have to also not reproduce ?

Not replying to a huge wall of text, but since your argument falls to pieces in your first sentence I don't have to. Like most people, you do not understand Biblical death and have assumed the scientific definition. The Bible isn't a science textbook and does not use scientific classification or terms, it uses Biblical classification and terms.

Biblical death is nephesh (נפש).

nephesh meaning ‘living being’ or ‘soul’.

Plants do not have a soul, bacteria do not have a soul, fungi do not have a soul and protists do not have a soul.

Only human beings and animals have a soul.

So yes Adam and Eve could chew up and digest without any 'death' occurring because that does not count as Biblical death.
 
Upvote 0