Dinosaurs existed!

[coffee4u]

No one has shown they are incompatible. The only error in evolution
is the idea of "random" which does not exist in nature.

They are completely incompatible. The main one being the Bible says there was no death before sin, while evolution states there was millions of years of death before man even came into existence.

 

[LoG]

They are completely incompatible. The main one being the Bible says there was no death before sin, while evolution states there was millions of years of death before man even came into existence.

Not as a defense for ToE but any verse I know of that speaks of death coming, speaks of it as coming to this "world", not to the Earth. A subtle but distinct difference.

Roman 5:12
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned

 

[GOD Shines Forth!]

My posts are most often a majority of scripture with links to the context. This is in contrast to others content.

Romans 1:20
For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

Psalm 19:1
To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David. The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork.

Psalm 19 and Romans 1 form a strong cord.

 

[coffee4u]

Not as a defense for ToE but any verse I know of that speaks of death coming, speaks of it as coming to this "world", not to the Earth. A subtle but distinct difference.

Roman 5:12
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned

Yes, but you overlooked the important part.

sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin
Sin happened then death happened.

1 Corinthians 15
20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
One man, Adam brought death and one man, Jesus brought life. How would this make sense if death was just a mechanism, something that had always just been there.

Then we have God's command
Genesis 2:17
but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."
God doesn't make empty threats. I believe their bodies started to die immediately. As soon as we are grown our bodies start to die, it's called ageing.
Genesis 3
19until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”

If death is merely a normal part of life, needed for evolution why does the Bible not view it as good and necessary but as an enemy to be destroyed?
25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
Meaning, no more death because there was none to begin with.

Revelation 21:3-4
And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

 

[Eloy Craft]

What happened to those trees? Or was Paradise more of a Spiritual place where man didn't die? Being vegetarian and unable to die would be more like Hell.

Nailed it. Imagine how differently we perceive time when our body didn't die. A body that isn't subject to survival conditions. An intellect that grasps time because it's well informed by a body that senses it. A body unhindered by the law of survival. A body that dies is attuned to an environment that contains threats to life and the laws of survival become the moral authority. All the urges and iinvoluntary movements that we experience because our bodies need to survive are now just like all the other animals. I think the fact that we die has altered our ability to grasp time and trapped us in an infinitely incremental perception that forces a linear experience and excludes any other dimension of time. We can't get exact dates because knowing an exact increment of time isn't necessary knowledge as it pertains to our salvation. But a mathematician friend of mine noticed this in Genesis. If you add up all the weeks from creation week to the week of the first drop of rain of the flood, ( using the years of the deaths and births of the patriarchs) it adds up to the same amount of seconds there are in one day.

 

[grampster]

It is always amusing to read the back and forth about creation, the age of earth, etc etc. Our whole reality as Christians revolves around Jesus as Lord, loving God with all we have and loving our neighbor as our self. That's enough to use up a day each day. If the age of the earth was important, surely God would have had much more to say about that. He didn't. He did say though, that He created it, that His ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts.

Reading over this thread I had a thought that I hadn't ever thought before...How long did Adam exist in the Garden before Eve came along? Then how long did they both live in the Garden until they disobeyed God and ate the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil? For all we know, that might have played out over a million or two or three etc years, since Adam and Eve lived in Eden which could have been a Safe Space from the goings on in the rest of the Earth, and Time was not a particular reality for them.

 

[SkyWriting]

They are completely incompatible. The main one being the Bible says there was no death before sin, while evolution states there was millions of years of death before man even came into existence.

Man came from the soil. Soil is decades of organic (death) material.
Spiritual death of course. Part of eating food requires that something dies so you can absorb the nutrients. Then your gut digests the food. And the Garden had a lot of food to digest. And "soil" is the death of years of organic plant and insect life. The "dust" man came from. So there was years of physical death of plants and animals, just in the description of the Garden itself. Of course "death" refers to sin, not physical death.

 

[SkyWriting]

How long did Adam exist in the Garden before Eve came along? Then how long did they both live in the Garden until they disobeyed God and ate the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil? For all we know, that might have played out over a million or two or three etc years, since Adam and Eve lived in Eden which could have been a Safe Space from the goings on in the rest of the Earth, and Time was not a particular reality for them.

How "old" were they? Did Adam worry about getting "Cooties" from girls?

 

[LoG]

Yes, but you overlooked the important part.

sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin
Sin happened then death happened.

Again, "sin entered the "world". The way I interpret the scriptures is that when it speaks of this world, it is referencing this creation. Adam's sin will have no bearing on the world/creation to come and by extension, no bearing on any that came before this one. The death that is evidenced in the fossil record from a previous world/creation had no impact on this one either as God reconstructed in Genesis 1 and said it was good.

 

[coffee4u]

Man came from the soil. Soil is decades of organic (death) material.
Spiritual death of course. Part of eating food requires that something dies so you can absorb the nutrients. Then your gut digests the food. And the Garden had a lot of food to digest. And "soil" is the death of years of organic plant and insect life. The "dust" man came from. So there was years of physical death of plants and animals, just in the description of the Garden itself. Of course "death" refers to sin, not physical death.

Man died both spiritually and physically after eating the fruit.
Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned-

Biblical death is nephesh (נפש), meaning ‘living being’ or ‘soul’ only things with the soul count as Biblical death. Plants do not have soul.

 

[coffee4u]

Reading over this thread I had a thought that I hadn't ever thought before...How long did Adam exist in the Garden before Eve came along? Then how long did they both live in the Garden until they disobeyed God and ate the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil? For all we know, that might have played out over a million or two or three etc years, since Adam and Eve lived in Eden which could have been a Safe Space from the goings on in the rest of the Earth, and Time was not a particular reality for them.

No, because the Bible tells us that Adam died 930 years after he was created.
Genesis 5:5
Altogether, Adam lived a total of 930 years, and then he died.

 

[Eloy Craft]

Again, "sin entered the "world". The way I interpret the scriptures is that when it speaks of this world, it is referencing this creation. Adam's sin will have no bearing on the world/creation to come and by extension, no bearing on any that came before this one. The death that is evidenced in the fossil record from a previous world/creation had no impact on this one either as God reconstructed in Genesis 1 and said it was good.

Same creation I think, it's just that futility is hardwired into creation in hope.....it is meant to reveal the dignity of man. Man is meant to lead creation to the next level. ....we hiccupped at the Garden so Creation is still waiting...
Romans 8, v20
for the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and will obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

 

[Cis.jd]

The Bible is not a science book. The problem that many Christians have done is make this false representation of the Bible to be a book that reveals all knowledge of our natural universe accurately. It doesn't, and it's not meant too. The Bible's message of truth isn't revealing the universe, it is revealing God.

Christians who have made stupid claims about the earth and it's history based on Genesis are the ones who are likely being "deceived by the devil" because they are making God's word look false. This warning of mixing scripture with science facts, or having it as a fact checker is what the Church fathers such as St Augustine spoke against.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Christians who have made stupid claims about the earth and it's history based on Genesis are the ones who are likely being "deceived by the devil" because they are making God's word look false. This warning of mixing scripture with science facts, or having it as a fact checker is what the Church fathers such as St Augustine spoke against.

Don't know if the many thousands of ppl who've either found God or returned to God by way of creationism, geocentrism and/or the flat earth just in recent times would agree there.

 

[Cis.jd]

Don't know if the many thousands of ppl who've either found God or returned to God by way of creationism, geocentrism and/or the flat earth just in recent times would agree there.

I don't care. They are free to believe in God however they want but when politicking these beliefs as fact and anyone who doesn't agree are just not "God's people", then it becomes different.

"Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he holds to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking non-sense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn...." - St Augustine

 

[PaulCyp1]

No, biblical chronology cannot be used to date creation, however, scientific methods can.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I don't care. They are free to believe in God however they want but when politicking these beliefs as fact and anyone who doesn't agree are just not "God's people", then it becomes different.

Believers are passionate about the truths that led them to Christ. So they try to help remove those obstacles for the unbeliever. For me, could never get past Gen 1 until God led me to geocentrism. Once I was comfortable with the science that proves the earth doesn't move, I was ready to open my mind and heart to the Word. And He sure came in and showed me heavenly truths. But as Jesus asks rhetorically 'If I speak of earthly things and ye believe not, how then will ye believe when I speak of heavenly things?'

Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking non-sense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn...." - St Augustine

Well, that's very dangerous teaching imho, which essentially endorses adopting worldly opinions which do not accord with scripture. But God's truths are foolishness to the Greek and and a stumbling block to the Jew. Because the world has chosen darkness, albeit with a veneer cast by the supposed angel of light.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

No, biblical chronology cannot be used to date creation, however, scientific methods can.

So you put your measure of faith in man's scientific methods over the Bible in matters of the age of creation. Is that in line with Catholic doctrine?

 

[Cis.jd]

Believers are passionate about the truths that led them to Christ. So they try to help remove those obstacles for the unbeliever. For me, could never get past Gen 1 until God led me to geocentrism. Once I was comfortable with the science that proves the earth doesn't move, I was ready to open my mind and heart to the Word. And He sure came in and showed me heavenly truths. But as Jesus asks rhetorically 'If I speak of earthly things and ye believe not, how then will ye believe when I speak of heavenly things?'

Why would God lead you to lies such as Geocentrism? The Holy Spirit is said to be the Spirit of Wisdom and truth and you are saying he lead you into something false? There is no form of science that states the earth doesn't move.

Well, that's very dangerous teaching imho, which essentially endorses adopting worldly opinions which do not accord with scripture. But God's truths are foolishness to the Greek and and a stumbling block to the Jew. Because the world has chosen darkness, albeit with a veneer cast by the supposed angel of light.

No, these views are saying not to misrepresent the Bible. As Christians, we are here to help them get to know him and believe in him. How are they going to be convinced he is truth when what you tell them about what scripture says is factually wrong and absurd?

"If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they (non believer) themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods and on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason?" - St Augustine

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Why would God lead you to lies such as Geocentrism? The Holy Spirit is said to be the Spirit of Wisdom and truth and you are saying he lead you into something false? There is no form of science that states the earth doesn't move.

Well, add it up, God led me to Him by a circuitous route including many so-called 'conspiracy theories', geocentrism being the biggest one. You could read Galileo was Wrong, by Sungenis et al as a good starting point. Or watch the doco The Principle. Although this may come as a surprise, no experiment or observation has ever detected any of the 4 or 5 distinct motions of the earth through space claimed by the standard model. Idk how a person can accept the Gen creation account on its face and also endorse heliocentrism/ standard model cosmology.