Dinos in the Ark?

[dad]

Dad, who built the pyramids and when did they do it and how did the Methuselah tree survive the flood?

For a century afyrt the flood the world aws still merged, remember. Even a week of a merged world could give us a Methuselah tree! Again, the mistake of present assumptions projected into the past. No can do, pal.
Pyramids? After the flood, and I don't know if any were before the flood, never looked that close at it.

Also, there's evidence of agriculture around 7000 B.C. meaning civilizations have been around well before your supposed time frame of the age of Earth (HERE)

No, the dates are based on PO old age beliefs, as always. There was agriculture in the days of Cain, remember! (Your link had belief statements, but no support as to how they arrived at the dates. Joke)

 

[Split Rock]

With today's news all cats came from the same ancestor long ago, it does seem a done deal. Hyper evolution means the ark was not crowded as some thought!! What a victory!

Should I even bother to ask (again) for the mechanism of this "hyper-evolution" you keep mentioning? Something more substantial than "they lived longer back then" and "there was no radiation damage" would be nice.

Thanks for the pic of Denise.. nice!

Oh, and by the way, Evangeline Lilly

 

[llDayo]

For a century afyrt the flood the world aws still merged, remember. Even a week of a merged world could give us a Methuselah tree! Again, the mistake of present assumptions projected into the past. No can do, pal.

So scientists do not know how to determine the age of trees? Methuselah is about 4,700 years old. That goes right through the flood. A tree that's evolved to survive in a dry, desolate environment is suddenly deluged by tons of water somehow survived? All that dry dirt around it would suddenly become soft, washing it off the White Mountains it survives in.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristlecone_pine

Pyramids? After the flood, and I don't know if any were before the flood, never looked that close at it.

2583 B.C. - The age of the Great Pyramid in Giza. Built before the supposed age of the flood and somehow survived the deluge, intact. With all that water dumping on top of it the limestone, basalt, and granite that it is composed of would have eroded immensely.

No, the dates are based on PO old age beliefs, as always. There was agriculture in the days of Cain, remember! (Your link had belief statements, but no support as to how they arrived at the dates. Joke)

Right, some scientists made up the dates and everyone agreed on faith. Yep, that's some great scientific work there. (rolling eye icon)

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

OK, you're a funny guy. Now if you'd put one of those things on your evo talk we're in business.

Evo talk? The fact that earth is far far more than 6,000 years old and the falsification of the global flood have nothing to do with evo. They were determined before Darwin. Meanwhile I keep waiting for you to tell us that all your posts are a big joke on YECs. I still find it hard to believe that you actually take the absolute nonsense you post seriously. I used to say that the Answers in Genesis fantasy of a global flood 4,500 years ago would be hilarious if it weren't for the fact that AiG has fooled so many people into taking them seriously. In the case of your ideas this problem doesn't exist and I can just say you are hilarious because there appears that even other YEC don't take you seriously.

F.B.

 

[DJ_Ghost]

No, thats all you do with old age belief. I base everything I say on something real.

Yes about an eighth of an ounce of something real by the looks of it.

Ghost

 

[dad]

Yes about an eighth of an ounce of something real by the looks of it.

Ghost

Is that how much a spirit weighs? Guess the guy who claimes 21 grams was wrong. My case rests on a real spiritual in the future and past, and present, though seperated. Your case rests solely on a baseless claim of a PO future and past. Don't try to pretend you have something on me in the science department!

 

[dad]

Should I even bother to ask (again) for the mechanism of this "hyper-evolution" you keep mentioning? ...
Thanks for the pic of Denise.. nice!

Oh, and by the way, Evangeline Lilly

You need a wife, lad. Anyhow, the spiritual and physical together are something that a look at the PO can't help you with. What exactly was the change that affected the aging genes, and cellular make up, and all things that took sinful man in a merged world, from near a thousand year life, to about 1/10 of that? What makes a tree grow slow now, what limitations, and what happened to our make up that made evolution only able to happen at a slow rate? No answers to these things can be gotten without knowing something of the spiritual, I don't think. Where do instincts come from, and how could they be overridden? Many mysteries, all of which require the spiritual.
How can one help you learn about that?

 

[dad]

Evo talk? The fact that earth is far far more than 6,000 years old and the falsification of the global flood have nothing to do with evo.

Old ageism, loosely called 'evo' beliefs. This means, basically everything involving dating, and assumptions of a past that is like the present, strictly physical only. Belief, in other words.

Meanwhile I keep waiting for you to tell us that all your posts are a big joke on YECs. I still find it hard to believe that you actually take the absolute nonsense you post seriously. I used to say that the Answers in Genesis fantasy of a global flood 4,500 years ago would be hilarious if it weren't for the fact that AiG has fooled so many people into taking them seriously.

Your opinion of your opinion is over valued.

In the case of your ideas this problem doesn't exist and I can just say you are hilarious because there appears that even other YEC don't take you seriously.

How many believers in an idea, I guess is the marker for you. Like the old, '10,000 flies couldn't be wrong' line. I like to judge an idea on it's own merits.

 

[vja4Him]

I used to assume there was dinos in the ark.

I now lean to land dinos being not on the ark, but am not sure. I think the reason many try to get them in the ark is flood geology, where too much credit is given to the effects of the flood.

There is much evidence of a worldwide flood !! Harold Coffin's book, "Origin By Design," is a must reading concerning flood gelogy and catastrophism.

From a biblical point of view, why would God even tell Noah to build an ark, in order to escape the flood, if the flood were not global and catastrphic?

Noah and many other people could simply migrate to high ground, or another land. Noah had many years to build the ark, so plenty of time to move to a safe place, if the flood was only local.

The billions of plants and animals buried, and fossilized, show much evidence of a worldwide catastrphic event that involved much water!!

- vja4Him
- hangin' wit' da' Big Man

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

There is much evidence of a worldwide flood !! Harold Coffin's book, "Origin By Design," is a must reading concerning flood gelogy and catastrophism.

From a biblical point of view, why would God even tell Noah to build an ark, in order to escape the flood, if the flood were not global and catastrphic?

Noah and many other people could simply migrate to high ground, or another land. Noah had many years to build the ark, so plenty of time to move to a safe place, if the flood was only local.

The billions of plants and animals buried, and fossilized, show much evidence of a worldwide catastrphic event that involved much water!!

- vja4Him
- hangin' wit' da' Big Man

Really, Then please tell us which of these buried and fossilized plants and animals were buried by the flood, which are pre-flood and which are post-flood. Also explain how the flood buried those fossils in the order we find. For starters here is the table of extinct and extant mammalian genera from Glenn Morton's page on this subject.
oldest
Triassic there are 4 genera--no living members
Jurassic 43 genera-no living members
Cretaceous 36 genera-no living members
Paleocene 213 genera-no living members
Eocene 569 genera-3 extant genera
Oligocene 494 genera 11 extant genera
Miocene 749 genera 57 extant genera
Pliocene 762 genera 133 extant genera
Pleistocene 830 genera 417 extant genera
youngest
why is there such a strong correlation between where the flood supposedly buried these mammals and whether or not they became extinct after coming off the ark?
You might also explain how the flood buried so many dinosaurs and so many large mammals and yet never buried dinosaurs and large mammals together. You might also explain how animals that were supposedly being buried by the flood built nests and left tracks on top of thousands of feet of other sediments that were supposedly deposited by this same flood, but start with the mammals above.

F.B.

 

[Split Rock]

You need a wife, lad.

LOL!! You are probably right about that!

Anyhow, the spiritual and physical together are something that a look at the PO can't help you with. What exactly was the change that affected the aging genes, and cellular make up, and all things that took sinful man in a merged world, from near a thousand year life, to about 1/10 of that? What makes a tree grow slow now, what limitations, and what happened to our make up that made evolution only able to happen at a slow rate? No answers to these things can be gotten without knowing something of the spiritual, I don't think. Where do instincts come from, and how could they be overridden? Many mysteries, all of which require the spiritual.
How can one help you learn about that?

This is a good case study for your "Pre-Split non-P.O.- Spritual World" Model. Let's see how it does in helping us answer the questions you brought up in the O.P.

Here are the questions:
1. Were there dinos on the arc?
2. Did the dinos become extinct before, or after the Flood?
3. How did all the species we see today get here, from the limited number of "Kinds" saved on the ark?

Now, the Pre-Split, Non-P.O. world model allows us to get around all the little problems that the laws of physics create for The Flood, The Ark and all the rest, because the laws of physics do not apply. Great. So, what can this model tell us about the questions you raised?

So far, we have concluded that dinos could have been on the arc, or maybe not. Maybe they all went extinct before the Flood, or maybe they went extinct after the Flood. Maybe some became extinct before, and others became extinct after. We have concluded beyond any doubt that you can put the dinos on the top of the column, on the bottom, or anywhere else.

Maybe there was "hyper-evolution" that allowed the ark survivors to adaptively radiate into all the species we see today in a few thousand years. How it did this we have no clue. How many pairs were needed on the ark to do this, we don't know. Pick any number and it will work fine.

What answers do we get with the Pre-Split World Model? All and None. It can answer any question with any answer we want. That is why it tells us nothing and is completetly useless. That is the problem with any Ad-hoc explanation. It may offer you a means to feel comfortable about rejecting the evolution of man, but not much else.

Some people here have claimed that you are nuts, but I think you are not. You are honest enough to accept that a literal translation of Genesis cannot be explained by physical examination of our world. In rejecting "Creation Science" in its entirely, you are one step ahead of most Creationists on this forum. You have then taken Creationism/I.D. to its logical conclusion... total and complete Ad-hoc rationalization. Completely logical and sane.

I salute you.

 

[dad]

There is much evidence of a worldwide flood !! Harold Coffin's book, "Origin By Design," is a must reading concerning flood gelogy and catastrophism.

Yes, there was a flood.

From a biblical point of view, why would God even tell Noah to build an ark, in order to escape the flood, if the flood were not global and catastrphic?

True, God isn't a liar.

Noah and many other people could simply migrate to high ground, or another land. Noah had many years to build the ark, so plenty of time to move to a safe place, if the flood was only local.

Impossible, it could not be local, not even a serious idea.

The billions of plants and animals buried, and fossilized, show much evidence of a worldwide catastrphic event that involved much water!!

Now, here we might find I diverge from standard flood geology. I give the credit for most of that to a very different pre flood world, where growth rates were phenomenal. Also, where spiritual and physical were together in the universe, and God seperated them after theflood, leaving us in the physical only, which is very different from the old merged world.

 

[dad]

Really, Then please tell us which of these buried and fossilized plants and animals were buried by the flood, which are pre-flood and which are post-flood. Also explain how the flood buried those fossils in the order we find. For starters here is the table of extinct and extant mammalian genera from Glenn Morton's page on this subject.
oldest
Triassic there are 4 genera--no living members
Jurassic 43 genera-no living members
Cretaceous 36 genera-no living members
Paleocene 213 genera-no living members
Eocene 569 genera-3 extant genera
Oligocene 494 genera 11 extant genera
Miocene 749 genera 57 extant genera
Pliocene 762 genera 133 extant genera
Pleistocene 830 genera 417 extant genera
youngest
why is there such a strong correlation between where the flood supposedly buried these mammals and whether or not they became extinct after coming off the ark?
You might also explain how the flood buried so many dinosaurs and so many large mammals and yet never buried dinosaurs and large mammals together. You might also explain how animals that were supposedly being buried by the flood built nests and left tracks on top of thousands of feet of other sediments that were supposedly deposited by this same flood, but start with the mammals above.

F.B.

Flood geology really can't do all that as it is. The split/merge eats that stuff for breakfast, spits out the bones, then looks around for a challenge for the day.

 

[dad]

Here are the questions:
1. Were there dinos on the arc?
2. Did the dinos become extinct before, or after the Flood?
3. How did all the species we see today get here, from the limited number of "Kinds" saved on the ark?

1 No ( At least I am leaning this way, possibly a few)
2 Before, most.
3 Hyper evolution. For example all cats from the one pair. (See todays news for confirmation) http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4585766.stm

!!!!! How about I throw a little fairly rapid modern adating in for good measure here.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1999/09/990930071733.htm

Now, the Pre-Split, Non-P.O. world model allows us to get around all the little problems that the laws of physics create for The Flood, The Ark and all the rest, because the laws of physics do not apply. Great. So, what can this model tell us about the questions you raised?

If you mean the ones I just answered, I guess, something about them.

So far, we have concluded that dinos could have been on the arc, or maybe not. Maybe they all went extinct before the Flood, or maybe they went extinct after the Flood. Maybe some became extinct before, and others became extinct after. We have concluded beyond any doubt that you can put the dinos on the top of the column, on the bottom, or anywhere else.

Depends where you place the flood, really. I [lace it near the top more than lower.

Maybe there was "hyper-evolution" that allowed the ark survivors to adaptively radiate into all the species we see today in a few thousand years. How it did this we have no clue. How many pairs were needed on the ark to do this, we don't know. Pick any number and it will work fine.

See today's news, as I linked. But there must have been hyper evolution. Don't blame me you can't understand the spiritual.

What answers do we get with the Pre-Split World Model? All and None. It can answer any question with any answer we want. That is why it tells us nothing and is completetly useless.

Wrong, it tells us the mysteries of the universe hitherto hid from man. Sounds like you want to make the jump from mere PO science, into the real deal.

That is the problem with any Ad-hoc explanation. It may offer you a means to feel comfortable about rejecting the evolution of man, but not much else.

The bible tells us of a new heavens, and eternal life, trees with 12 kinds of fruit, one that grows each month, golden mansions, etc. This is not ad hoc, it is a glimpse of the very very real real future. It also pulls the curtain back on the past, and creation. Specific, detailed differences from the PO present, but how much about the spiritual can man understand here?

Some people here have claimed that you are nuts, but I think you are not. You are honest enough to accept that a literal translation of Genesis cannot be explained by physical examination of our world. In rejecting "Creation Science" in its entirely, you are one step ahead of most Creationists on this forum. You have then taken Creationism/I.D. to its logical conclusion... total and complete Ad-hoc rationalization. Completely logical and sane.

And irefutable.

I salute you.

At ease, men.

 

[duordi]

So far so good.
Because the universe was still merged, and if fallen man got back in and ate of the tree of life, he would have sort of reverse flipped the death switch, and lived forever in a sinful state!

Agreed, and it is stated as the reason for the eviction.
However if the animals from the garden of Eden were not put on the Ark then they all died.
It has always seemed more likley to me that God would want to use the animals closest to the original perfect creation to repopulate the Earth after the flood.
Building the Ark right next to the garden of Eden would also prevent the animals from being killed or captured on the journey.

Just as a side note, if God only made two of each animal at the beginning Just like he made only two humans ( A big IF) and God killed one of them to make robes for Adam and Eve that would mean that one type of animal went extint as it takes two animals to procreate.

Unless there were no animals outside of Eden! (Save some trilobites and some creatures busy preparing the earth for our eventual spread, that went into high gear all of a sudden with the fall)

I had never considered that there might not have been much outside of the garden of Eden before.
But in Gen: 4:20 at least cattle and Gen 4:2 sheep were outside the garden.

 

[duordi]

Yes, there was a flood.


True, God isn't a liar.


Impossible, it could not be local, not even a serious idea.


Now, here we might find I diverge from standard flood geology. I give the credit for most of that to a very different pre flood world, where growth rates were phenomenal. Also, where spiritual and physical were together in the universe, and God seperated them after theflood, leaving us in the physical only, which is very different from the old merged world.

I would agree as the flood is typically over simplified into a single event.

The cycling of the ice ages after the flood would cause multiple floods not just one however only one covered all land.

If you are not familiar with this condition, the storage of water in the ice caps causes the ocean level to lower and the melting of the ice caps cause the ocean levels to rise.

We are not considered to be in an ice age but the ocean level would rise about 220 ft. if the current ice caps melted. The Earth is not rigid and would deform to compensate eventually so it is a question of how fast the freezing and melting process happens.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/question473.htm


Duane

 

[dad]

Agreed, and it is stated as the reason for the eviction.
However if the animals from the garden of Eden were not put on the Ark then they all died.
It has always seemed more likley to me that God would want to use the animals closest to the original perfect creation to repopulate the Earth after the flood.

I thought close to the ark might be a bonus. Also, not molested by men, and good breeders might be an asset, and a few things like that. Man could travel a long way in the, - was it 1600 years, or whatever, from the garden till the flood, and animals even further, perhaps.

Building the Ark right next to the garden of Eden would also prevent the animals from being killed or captured on the journey.

I think the garden was a distant memory by then.

Just as a side note, if God only made two of each animal at the beginning Just like he made only two humans ( A big IF) and God killed one of them to make robes for Adam and Eve that would mean that one type of animal went extint as it takes two animals to procreate.

No, there may have been tens of thousands by then, as we don't know how many years they were in the garden.

I had never considered that there might not have been much outside of the garden of Eden before.
But in Gen: 4:20 at least cattle and Gen 4:2 sheep were outside the garden.

When man got the boot, God sent the animals out too, they started the same place man did. Of course they went out from the garden area, at least the animals He knew we needed to live out there, to start, if not all, as I suspect.

 

[bainecaileag86]

wow, I'm really jumping in the middle of this. I believe that there were dinos in the ark, he could have gotten small ones. I believe that there were dinos after the flood because of the passages in Job about Behemoth and Leviathon. Job was probably the first written book of the Bible, so the dinos may not have lasted long after that. The vapor canopy that collapsed to start the flood as many believe would have protected the earth, yielding long life and growth to animals and people. Once it was gone, long life disappears and we only grow so big. I'm no expert, but if you've ever heard of Kent Hovind (www.drdino.com) he has a lot of videos about all these topics and many evidences outlined there. If you would rather read, check out The World that Perished by John Whitcomb (I think).

 

[Grengor]

It's not good to "jump in the middle". Start out asking questions.

 

[dad]

wow, I'm really jumping in the middle of this. I believe that there were dinos in the ark, he could have gotten small ones. I believe that there were dinos after the flood because of the passages in Job about Behemoth and Leviathon.

One I think is a behemoth, or mamoth, as some think, and the other is a water creature, as we see, it is found in the 'deep'.

Job was probably the first written book of the Bible, so the dinos may not have lasted long after that. The vapor canopy that collapsed to start the flood as many believe would have protected the earth, yielding long life and growth to animals and people.

Yes, I have heard this. But a water layer itself cannot give long life in the order of over nine centuries, I don't think. Otherwise people in Seattle may live at least 300 years! Ha. This is why I believe that the world was spiritual and physical at the time, which would explain that. It got seperated after the flood about a century.

Once it was gone, long life disappears and we only grow so big. I'm no expert, but if you've ever heard of Kent Hovind (www.drdino.com) he has a lot of videos about all these topics and many evidences outlined there. If you would rather read, check out The World that Perished by John Whitcomb (I think).

Interesting ideas all, no doubt. But they envision a past that was like the present also, which is why they have a hard time correlating their stories to the evidence and science. I've been there. Now, I have no concerns about science, as it is limited to the natural or physical only, and cannot say a thing about a merged past, one way or the other. They can tear a piece out of Kent, and some of the guys, however, which is why I understand they ought to get better 'armed'.