Dinos in the Ark?

[DJ_Ghost]

I'd rather check what you believe in.

I’m a Christian, united reform to be exact. Its one of the many sects that accept the Nicene creed and so meets this forums required definition of the term Christian.

Well, if you can't come up with any bible criticisms,

For your vapour canopies, liquid crystal planetary core and solar winds taking the used flood waters to mars? I’m still waiting to see you provide any biblical evidence for it. I find it odd that you need t6o concoct all of this to support a literal flood model, but that you overlook the obvious problem that all of it mysteriously doesn’t get mentioned in scripture.

or scientific,

You have been shown much scientific refutation of your ideas, you hand wave it all away by claiming that the laws of physics didn’t apply until after the flood. You claim scripture is your evidence for this but whenever asked you are unable to provide any scriptural evidence. Instead you retort with obfuscations or ad hominems.

I guess obscure games are the way to go!

You have missed the point.

Do you think heaven as a real place, and the new heavens talked of in the bible are ficticious too? Do you think Heaven, our eternal home is going to be in a decay and death filled PO universe like the present?

Irrelevant old boy, since it is your ideas about this world not the next that I am questioning.

You want to sit there sniping, saying you are christian, you better do more than accuse, insult, and whine!

Don’t resort to questioning my Christianity and personal attacks, I have not “wined” I’ve disagreed with you because your proposition has no scientific support and is premised on an awful lot of extra biblical supposition on your part.

Says you. Let me ask do you even believe in spirits, and possesion?

Do you want to know if I believe in them in principle or do I believe in them in this instance? Are you honestly saying that you think this TV series caused demonic possession, is that what you are saying?

You normally induce something that is there to start with. If lights trigger a spiritual attack, don't blame the lights.

I see, so you are claiming that these were not petite mal seizures but some form of spiritual activity? In the Physical Only world that you keep insisting we now live in, the physical scientific explanation of the events is wrong and it is an occurrence of spiritual attack? On what do you base this? Where is your evidence. i remind you that by your own admission this is now a PO universe and therefore the scientific laws should apply.

Ghost

 

[dad]

Pay attention, dad. The unified force theories which occured near time zero ARE evidenced by particle accelerators and experiments, and are NOT self-contradictory and in fact make mathematical and theoretical sense. Nor are they ad-hoc made up like yours.

In other words, some properties are theorized, and observed that seem to mean that, IF the PO was a speck, it could expand. I could say, if a metal car struck mars at a certain speed, it would make a crater, and some heat. Doesn't mean it happened. You just theorize it is theoretically possible, if it were in a little hot soup singularity, it might behave a certain way. (maybe). This assumes so much it is a joke. It firstly assumes nothing but the physical only. Ever. Then it proceeds to theorize how it made it's little self. I don't care if a metal car got hot in a lab when we smashed it into a brick wall. Question is, can you prove it will smash into mars, or, in this case, that our universe was in a speck, much smaller than a speck of pepper! I guess some prefer a more 'proper' term, like little - hot soup!

It's unnecessary.

No, if you claim it you need to do more than force everyone to assume you are right, in leui of any proof!

You've produced no evidence that this may not be the case,

You've produced no evidence that this may be the case! Neither can you! Neither can you disprove my claims, or the bibles! All that's left is your statements of faith, and trying to bully others to swallow.

and Occam's Razor gives that as the default position in the absence of contrary evidence.

Phantom PO pasts are no default when examined, hec, they can't even support their little selves.

 

[dad]

I’m a Christian, united reform to be exact. ...

I never said check what religious outfit you belong to, or how some forums may like or dislike it. I said what you believe in. In other words, the bible. If you want to gripe about my understanding of it, then back it up, and make a point that is supported.

For your vapour canopies, liquid crystal planetary core and solar winds taking the used flood waters to mars?

No, for the merged new heavens. I don't know what kind of wind God caused to blow to dry the waters, or where they went. I never claimed solar winds. As for the center of the earth, I was testing and exploring the limits of what science really knows, which isn't that much about that particular subject. This also was before I saw the split as after the flood, I think. So I was trying to understand the center of the earth in a PO way! Like what physical materials, of the right properties, and density, etc could it be if any, if it were not as hot as they say? Now, I have a new take on that, of course, with the power of the merged past at my fingertips!!!!

I’m still waiting to see you provide any biblical evidence for it.

I have, that the future is different, the past was different, growth rates, timing based on the bible etc!

I find it odd that you need t6o concoct all of this to support a literal flood model, but that you overlook the obvious problem that all of it mysteriously doesn’t get mentioned in scripture.

That is your opinion, I see much evidence of the merged universe described there, no doubt. You really don't have a choice to believe that Jesus' body was both spiritual and physical, and heaven will be too. Do you?

You have been shown much scientific refutation of your ideas, you hand wave it all away by claiming that the laws of physics didn’t apply until after the flood.

False. Not a speck of proof was given to support the PO past that is claimed, and upon which old ageism rests! Just beliefs, and interpretations.

You claim scripture is your evidence for this but whenever asked you are unable to provide any scriptural evidence. Instead you retort with obfuscations or ad hominems.

Start with heaven. The new heavens are coming where us and God will live, these physical ones will pass away, are you with me so far?

Irrelevant old boy, since it is your ideas about this world not the next that I am questioning.

Ha, couldn't give a straight answer as to whether you even believe in heaven!!!!!! That speaks volumes.

Don’t resort to questioning my Christianity and personal attacks,

I never said you were no christian. I am seeing if you believe the bible or not, and spirits, and heaven. Why the big secret? Ashamed of your beliefs?

I have not “wined” I’ve disagreed with you because your proposition has no scientific support and is premised on an awful lot of extra biblical supposition on your part.

It fits the evidence, as the PO beliefs do, and science cannot assail it, or even support a contrary PO opinion!

Do you want to know if I believe in them in principle or do I believe in them in this instance?

In general.

Are you honestly saying that you think this TV series caused demonic possession, is that what you are saying?

Possession is a strong word. Even believers can be attacked spiritually. Mother Theresa I believe even had an excorcist in her hospital near her death. Not because she was possessed, but more of a routine thing, and I think sahe sort of felt attacked or something similar. If a medium has a spirit speak through her, it doesn't mean she is possesed, just that she allowed a spirit to speak through her. Jesus was even taken by the devil, and tempted one time! Simon Peter was told to close his trap, or rather the devil speaking through his words one time!
King Saul was bothered by a bad spirit, and David played his harp, which usually made it go away.
So, some of these video games, and things can lead to a bad spiritual experience, I believe.
"
More than 700 people, mainly school children, were rushed to hospitals Tuesday after suffering convulsions, vomiting, irritated eyes and other symptoms after watching "Pokemon," a popular cartoon based on Nintendo's "Pocket Monsters" video game.

Two-hundred people, from age 3 to a 58-year-old man, were still in the hospital Wednesday with epilepsy-type symptoms more than 24 hours after the showing, the Home Affairs Ministry said. "

http://www.virtualpet.com/vp/farm/pmonster/seizures/pmnews1.htm

I see, so you are claiming that these were not petite mal seizures but some form of spiritual activity?

Some form, I would say.

In the Physical Only world that you keep insisting we now live in, the physical scientific explanation of the events is wrong and it is an occurrence of spiritual attack?

Spirits are on earth, and in people and all around. We have guardian angels, and there are demons, and all kinds of spirits. Just because they are seperate at the moment from us, does not mean they do not come here!!! You bet they do, miracles happen all the time! God is alive and well, and working here. His agents and messengers abound. The PO is overridden at His leisure, as needed locally. He answers prayer, and changes things. The normal physical course of events, like sickness, and even death can be overruled. Jesus is an example.
The natural only abilities of science cannot detect the spiritual, just some symptoms of the physical that may go along with it! Jesus cast out demons, do you think they all disappeared back then? No. It is just that PO science is too limited to realize what is going on, to the real and full extent.

On what do you base this? Where is your evidence. i remind you that by your own admission this is now a PO universe and therefore the scientific laws should apply.

Normally, they do apply. But they are not all that applies in the world of men!

 

[Caphi]

No, if you claim it you need to do more than force everyone to assume you are right, in leui of any proof!


You've produced no evidence that this may be the case! Neither can you! Neither can you disprove my claims, or the bibles! All that's left is your statements of faith, and trying to bully others to swallow.

Phantom PO pasts are no default when examined, hec, they can't even support their little selves.

I make every one of these statements back at you, unaltered save the word "Bible" and the word "PO." Other than that, dad, I must remind you that you are subject to EXACTLY the same things.

Now, shall we discuss evidence or do you want to keep blathering about Absolute Proof (tm)? May I remind you that you have not yet proved the nonexistence of the Polkadot Supercalifraglistic Rhinobee. Should you do so, I will withdraw all of my arguments and submit the debate. You have not.

 

[dad]

...I must remind you that you are subject to EXACTLY the same things.

No, creation is not forced on public education, is it? And if exactly the same thing applies, you need to prove the physical only same as present past before you have a right to teach it!

Now, shall we discuss evidence or do you want to keep blathering about Absolute Proof (tm)?

What is tm? Yes, if you have evidence of a past non merged universe, go for it. That would clinch it.

May I remind you that you have not yet proved the nonexistence of .....

And you have not proved the existance of..... or....... or even........, let alone......! The past you preach has no proof, and not even a shred of evidence, just your spins on what things might mean if your beliefs were all true!!!!!!! You seem to think the spiritual is all in the mind, and the universe was in a speck, but nothing outside of your mind can prove it or support it except belief biased assumptions. If you could objectively and solidly test and observe, and repeat, and support any past whatsoever, spiritual, PO, or otherwise, it would be one thing, but you can't do that, and you still want to reap the benefits of pretending you can! Disgraceful.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Spirits are on earth, and in people and all around. We have guardian angels, and there are demons, and all kinds of spirits. Just because they are seperate at the moment from us, does not mean they do not come here!!! You bet they do, miracles happen all the time! God is alive and well, and working here. His agents and messengers abound. The PO is overridden at His leisure, as needed locally. He answers prayer, and changes things. The normal physical course of events, like sickness, and even death can be overruled.

Got anything to back any of this up except your SO assumptions?

 

[Caphi]

Okay, dad. Let's suppose for a moment that the Universe at some time in the past was not as it is right now. Why should I believe that this different past-Universe was as YOU say it is? Why should I not believe that the past-Universe was made of custard? You have no way to prove otherwise, yes?

And you still haven't disproved the Rhinobee.

 

[dad]

Okay, dad. Let's suppose for a moment that the Universe at some time in the past was not as it is right now. Why should I believe that this different past-Universe was as YOU say it is?

You can believe what you like, just don't pretend it is more than that! I'll take the bible, and it's detailed, unassailable accounts breathed down to men by the Almighty.

 

[dad]

Spirits are on earth, and in people and all around. We have guardian angels, and there are demons, and all kinds of spirits. Just because they are seperate at the moment from us, does not mean they do not come here!!! You bet they do, miracles happen all the time! God is alive and well, and working here. His agents and messengers abound. The PO is overridden at His leisure, as needed locally. He answers prayer, and changes things. The normal physical course of events, like sickness, and even death can be overruled.

Got anything to back any of this up ...?

If you do not belive in God, and miracles, and angels, and demons, and a spiritual, then nothing will back it up for you, even if one rose from the dead, and returned to you. Your mind is made up, no need to confuse you with the facts. You will just have to consider most men who believe such things, they think, for good reasons as sadly mistaken. Meanwhile, back at the ranch, all you can do is speculate the PO past and come up with conclusions that are mischievous monkey level madness, while trying to cast stones at the sound of reason!

 

[DJ_Ghost]

I never said check what religious outfit you belong to, or how some forums may like or dislike it. I said what you believe in.

Then let me put it in simple words for you, since you seem to be struggling with it. Since I am a Christian and a member of the united reform church, it should be fairly obvious that I beleive in God, Christ and heaven, becase if I did not, then i would not be a member of the UR church now would I?

Is that simple enough for you, or are you still uncertain, because I really can’t see how much more plainly any one could make it.

In other words, the bible. If you want to gripe about my understanding of it, then back it up, and make a point that is supported.

The thing is, not all Christian sects agree with your interpretation of the bible, in fact I will go one step further, not a single Christian sect I’ve ever encountered agrees with your interpretation of the bible. Your interpretation is yours, not the only one.

I have, that the future is different, the past was different, growth rates, timing based on the bible etc!

Those are assertions not evidence.

You really don't have a choice to believe that Jesus' body was both spiritual and physical, and heaven will be too. Do you?

How on earth is it possible for you to be so in the dark about what Christians believe? Of course I believe Jesus body was both spiritual and physical, but then we believe all bodies are both, however, you are trying to claim that some how that means physical laws may not apply in the physical world, the world you yourself call “Physical Only”.

False. Not a speck of proof was given to support the PO past that is claimed, and upon which old ageism rests! Just beliefs, and interpretations.

Actually there is a lot of evidence for a PO past, what you can claim is that no evidence has been provided that can falsify a merged past, not quite the same.

Start with heaven. The new heavens are coming where us and God will live, these physical ones will pass away, are you with me so far?

So you now think that heaven is coming here and is going to change? Rather than heaven being elsewhere and being eternal?

Ha, couldn't give a straight answer as to whether you even believe in heaven!!!!!! That speaks volumes.

I would have thought that my answer was patently obvious even to you Dad. Of course I believe in heaven, Christians do you know. I didn’t answer your question with a strait yes or no because I thought you were kidding, I didn’t think it was possible for anyone to know so little about other forms of Christianity that they could honestly ask that question with a strait face, sorry I over estimated you, it shan’t happen again.

I never said you were no christian. I am seeing if you believe the bible or not, and spirits, and heaven. Why the big secret? Ashamed of your beliefs?

You implied it, and its no secret, I just honestly didn’t think you could genuinely be asking.

So, some of these video games, and things can lead to a bad spiritual experience, I believe.

Yes I know what you believe, what I asked for is what evidence you have that the case is spiritual attack rather than petite mal seizures. I mean they look like seizures, they behave like seizures and they were cased by the sort of thing that causes seizures, so i ask again, why do you insist it was spiritual attack and not seizures? Or do you think all seizures are caused by spiritual attack.

Some form, I would say.

Based on what?

Normally, they do apply. But they are not all that applies in the world of men!

So your term “Physical Only“should be amended then.

Ghost

 

[dad]

Then let me put it in simple words for you, since you seem to be struggling with it. Since I am a Christian and a member of the united reform church, it should be fairly obvious that I beleive in God, Christ and heaven, becase if I did not, then i would not be a member of the UR church now would I?

Being a church member, as I see it, is nothing more than having a bank checking account, or being a Cosco member, sorry. I have talked to some leaders of denominations who did not believe the bible at all. They could not accept even that Jesus was a man, a male! Some are better than that, no doubt, but really, anyone can sit in a pew. Hitler, Bush, Netanyahu, Saddam, Iran's leader, etc etc. Kind of like peace talks, sound noble and all that, but often, it is just a cover, and war is in their hearts. If you believe in Jesus, great, I care not what church or club you belong to. Jesus was not in with the church crowd of His day.

Is that simple enough for you, or are you still uncertain, because I really can’t see how much more plainly any one could make it.

Is that simple enough for you, or are you still uncertain, because I really can’t see how much more plainly any one could make it.

The thing is, not all Christian sects agree with your interpretation of the bible, in fact I will go one step further, not a single Christian sect I’ve ever encountered agrees with your interpretation of the bible. Your interpretation is yours, not the only one.

Not true. Orgins is a small part of my belief in His word. Millions and millions agree the bible is true, and God made the world when He said, and how He said! Deducing exactly how, using the bible, and evidence is just an attempt at determining how He did it. The main thing is believing He did, one way or the other. Jesus agreed there was a real flood, and spoke of it. The new testament also refers to the garden. Rather than throw out the bible as fables as many churches have done, I try to see where men's knowledge was lacking.

Those are assertions not evidence.

No, absolute bible facts. Start with New Jerusalem, it comes from the sky, in a new heavens, do you believe that?

How on earth is it possible for you to be so in the dark about what Christians believe? Of course I believe Jesus body was both spiritual and physical, but then we believe all bodies are both,

No, we don't, really if you think about it, in the same sense, at all! We have a soul, or spirit, yes, of course, but it is seperate from our physical body, and just resides there while we are here. Jesus had His ressurected, immortal body, and it was not like yours or mine. It appeared and disappeared, flew up into the sky, rose from the dead, assumed disguises, and many things, so we know it was spiritual. Yet it also ate food, and was physical as well, both. Surely you see the difference.

however, you are trying to claim that some how that means physical laws may not apply in the physical world, the world you yourself call “Physical Only”.

Those with ressurected bodies are not physical only, neither those in New Jerusalem, or the new heavens coming, that are eternal. When the rapture occurs, we will have eternal ressurected bodies, don't you believe this?

Actually there is a lot of evidence for a PO past,

No, none at all. Present decay is not evidence of the same process in the past, that is only assumed. The fossils are not evidence we came from a bacteria like lifeform, just that some adapting occured, etc etc. You need to learn the difference between evidence of something and assumptions about the evidence.

what you can claim is that no evidence has been provided that can falsify a merged past, not quite the same.

I can do that too, but more importantly, you can not prove a physical only past, as is assumed. This is important, because others who are not christian, or even believers in anything spiritual, are left to be unable to evidence this is all there ever was or will be.

So you now think that heaven is coming here and is going to change? Rather than heaven being elsewhere and being eternal?

This universe, or heavens we see all around us will pass away, it says quite clearly. The city of God will come down to earth, from God, very clearly. It will be after the new heavens are revealed, very clear. It will be different than the present heavens and earth, absolutely, and very certainly and clearly. It is not here now, so, we can think of it temporarily as being, as you say 'elsewhere'.

I would have thought that my answer was patently obvious even to you Dad. Of course I believe in heaven, Christians do you know.

Not some I have met, at least not New Jerusalem, and mansions, and pearl gates, and gold streets, and precious stone walls, etc. Others, like JWs I met, seem to think it is full as well!! There are all kind of ideas out there from christians. Not in the bible really, if we look closely, however, it is a much narrower range of options there.

I didn’t answer your question with a strait yes or no because I thought you were kidding, I didn’t think it was possible for anyone to know so little about other forms of Christianity that they could honestly ask that question with a strait face, sorry I over estimated you, it shan’t happen again.

Good, so then, do you believe in New Jerusalem, and the place Jesus said He went to prepare for us? If so, you must admit it is not just a ghost town, but has real mansions, trees, people, and river, and materials, and light, etc.

You implied it, and its no secret, I just honestly didn’t think you could genuinely be asking.

I meant believer, really, in the bible, not whether you were a believer in Jesus, and saved. That's easy, many are save who really don't know hardly a thing about the bible. Knowledge is not some criteria for salvation that I am aware of. Many mentally challenged people are saved. But I do ask people who seem to think the future is physical only, because I want to point out that it cannot be if God, and angels, and us live there, and everything is different almost. I could see where christians would not belive it could be that way in our past. But not the future.

Yes I know what you believe, what I asked for is what evidence you have that the case is spiritual attack rather than petite mal seizures. I mean they look like seizures, they behave like seizures and they were cased by the sort of thing that causes seizures, so i ask again, why do you insist it was spiritual attack and not seizures? Or do you think all seizures are caused by spiritual attack.

I don't really know, and am not some expert there. It is my understanding that some seizures are spirit related. I also believe that people can be inspired, or possessed by good or bad spirits. Do you? Or do you think it is all in their head? I can discern when, usually some are bothered, or even overun by bad spirits, and I know that the medical profession in general attributes these things to physical and mental things only, which is false. Just as they try to explain away similar things in Jesus' day!

So your term “Physical Only“should be amended then.

Yes, if that's what you thought it was supposed to mean, that angels and spirits were not all around us. I was trying to point out the differences in the past, where God walked and talked with us, and sons of god married women, etc. to show it is seperate now. They can come here, but we can't see them, or go there at the moment, unless God let's us for some reason.

 

[Caphi]

You can believe what you like, just don't pretend it is more than that!

Exactly. As far as I'm concerned, your ramblings through this entire thread are at precisely the same level as the belief that the Universe came from custard.

 

[DJ_Ghost]

Being a church member, as I see it, is nothing more than having a bank checking account, or being a Cosco member, sorry.

Fair enough.

Not true. Orgins is a small part of my belief in His word. Millions and millions agree the bible is true,

No one is disputing that, what I am disputing is that very few people share your interpretation of it, not that they don’t accept the bible itself.

Not that its relevant of course, since popularity has no bearing on truth. You could be the only person ever to believe a certain way and still be right.

No, none at all. Present decay is not evidence of the same process in the past, that is only assumed. The fossils are not evidence we came from a bacteria like lifeform, just that some adapting occured, etc etc. You need to learn the difference between evidence of something and assumptions about the evidence.

I am fully aware of the difference thank you very much, I’ve been asking you to do me the courtesy of presenting some of yours, would there be any possibility you could perhaps do so? I don’t mean just repeating your “reality was different before” shtick, I mean some actual evidence that supports it.

I can do that too, but more importantly, you can not prove a physical only past, as is assumed.

Nor can you falsify a PO past, or it would seem, provide any evidence of an alternative.

Not some I have met, at least not New Jerusalem, and mansions, and pearl gates, and gold streets, and precious stone walls, etc

Yes well there is a big difference between not believing in heaven and not believing that it has pearl gates, gold streets and stone walls. I don’t think many people believe that.

Others, like JWs I met, seem to think it is full as well!!

Ah well I had forgotten about the JW, they tend to steer clear of my area, its more the Latter-day saints that do the door to door evangelising here, and they have a much more firm foothold than the JW.

There are all kind of ideas out there from christians.

Sure, i agree, but I don’t think there are any that deny the existence of some form of heaven are there?

Good, so then, do you believe in New Jerusalem, and the place Jesus said He went to prepare for us? If so, you must admit it is not just a ghost town, but has real mansions, trees, people, and river, and materials, and light, etc.

Do I believe that heaven is literally, physically similar to Earth only without death and suffering? No. Do I believe it is allegorically described in terms people will recognise? Yes. Probably not the answer you wanted to hear.

I meant believer, really, in the bible, not whether you were a believer in Jesus, and saved.

That depends what you mean by “believe in”. In my experience when literalist say “believe in” they mean “as a literal description with no allegory”. In which case no, I don’t believe the bible is literal in its entirety.

Actually whilst we are asking questions, as you do seem to think the bible is literal what are your views on the Apocrypha? Do you also believe that is literal? Do you think as it is scriptural it should never have been split off from the Cannon? Or do you believe that the council were doing a spot of editing under the direct guidance of God and were banishing from the cannon things that should not have been in it? Or do you have another hypothesis?

I don't really know, and am not some expert there.

Okay fair enough.

It is my understanding that some seizures are spirit related.

I’ve heard people say so, but I’ve never seen one that didn’t correspond to much more mundane cases.

I also believe that people can be inspired, or possessed by good or bad spirits. Do you?

Well I like to try and keep an open mind, but I must admit I find it very hard to. I’ve seen seances and spiritualists and what not and they invariably prove to be fakes. I’ve seen seizures but they always prove to have a physical explanation. I’ve heard of cases that are supposed to be possession and inexplicable by any other means, but I’ve never seen one first hand and I’ve also heard people who think God was a space man who came here on a UFO and that Pyramids are landing sites.

Or do you think it is all in their head?

Well I’ve certainly seen the odd case of schizophrenia that mimics the descriptions of posession and spiritual attack.

I can discern when, usually some are bothered, or even overun by bad spirits, and I know that the medical profession in general attributes these things to physical and mental things only, which is false.

Well there we have to agree to differ, because I’ve never seen an incident of this kind that I didn’t find the evidence of physical or psychological causes to be compelling.

Yes, if that's what you thought it was supposed to mean, that angels and spirits were not all around us. I was trying to point out the differences in the past, where God walked and talked with us, and sons of god married women, etc. to show it is seperate now. They can come here, but we can't see them, or go there at the moment, unless God let's us for some reason.

Then I don’t see why you would call it “physical only” if you don’t actually mean “physical only”. To me, I believe the physical world is governed by the laws of physics because that's what God created the laws of physics for. I also believe there is a spiritual world, but I believe it does not come into the physical world o warp the laws of nature, or at least not with any degree of frequency.

 

[dad]

Exactly. As far as I'm concerned, your ramblings through this entire thread are at precisely the same level as the belief that the Universe came from custard.

If you had some evidence of how it seems to you, it would have some weight. As it is, your beliefs seem very strange to me as well. What is important to many people on a christian thread, is what the bible says, and what the actual evidence says, not just the unsubstansiated opinion of a poster that seemingly thinks the spiritual is all in the head!

 

[dad]

No one is disputing that, what I am disputing is that very few people share your interpretation of it, not that they don’t accept the bible itself.

Not that its relevant of course, since popularity has no bearing on truth. You could be the only person ever to believe a certain way and still be right.

Fair enough!

I am fully aware of the difference thank you very much, I’ve been asking you to do me the courtesy of presenting some of yours, would there be any possibility you could perhaps do so? I don’t mean just repeating your “reality was different before” shtick, I mean some actual evidence that supports it.

In the future again, then, we see that the universe is different, and this one passes away! How about that for different? We see stars and sun there lasting forever, that is different, it can't happen in this physical universe. We see us living forever, so, it would do no good to cite our body's decaying rates as evidence, they will not apply then, they do apply now! Trees will have a different fruit each month on the same tree, some of them, then, it can't happen here, so it is very different. How many things past or future do I need to list here?

Nor can you falsify a PO past, or it would seem, provide any evidence of an alternative.

The bible tells us it will be different, even that the whole heavens will pass away. That is an alternative. But even if some don't believe the bible, they still are left holding the bag here, of evidencing the past they claim supports their old ages. If they cannot do it, then the ages are out. They can't just be assumed for the heck of it!

Yes well there is a big difference between not believing in heaven and not believing that it has pearl gates, gold streets and stone walls. I don’t think many people believe that.

Ah, now here is the real issue! Not just the garden, but believing in what Jesus said about preparing for us a real place. I would be surprised, truly, if 1 YEer did not believe in New Jerusalem!!!! (Seriously)


Heb 11:16 - But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city. The hope of all ages, even in Abraham's day . 8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Re 21:14 - And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Ah well I had forgotten about the JW, they tend to steer clear of my area, its more the Latter-day saints that do the door to door evangelising here, and they have a much more firm foothold than the JW.

The church I had the talk with some leaders from was the United churh, up in Canada. They would not even show kids movies that portrayed Jesus as a man. (they happen to be a leader in the same sex rights charge there as well)

Sure, i agree, but I don’t think there are any that deny the existence of some form of heaven are there?

Hope not. But I really don't know, with some.

Do I believe that heaven is literally, physically similar to Earth only without death and suffering? No. Do I believe it is allegorically described in terms people will recognise? Yes. Probably not the answer you wanted to hear.

So, how about this one..


Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Actually whilst we are asking questions, as you do seem to think the bible is literal what are your views on the Apocrypha? Do you also believe that is literal? Do you think as it is scriptural it should never have been split off from the Cannon? Or do you believe that the council were doing a spot of editing under the direct guidance of God and were banishing from the cannon things that should not have been in it? Or do you have another hypothesis?

I think you mean the other books that were not put in the bible. I believe God inspired the folks who put the bible together. The other books may be fine, but not needed for some reason. Heck, I like some of the old hymns, and think they are fairly inspired as well, but you can only cram so much in there!

I’ve heard people say so, but I’ve never seen one that didn’t correspond to much more mundane cases.

But how would we know? All we can see is the physical body?

Well I like to try and keep an open mind, but I must admit I find it very hard to. I’ve seen seances and spiritualists and what not and they invariably prove to be fakes.

Houdini saw the same, yet he also saw the real deal. His mom saved his life under the ice one time, and told him which way to swin to the hole in the ice to get out.

I’ve seen seizures but they always prove to have a physical explanation.

How can we tell what is thr trigger, which is physical perhaps, like the Japaneese show, and the spiritual, which may be carried in physical things, that we can't see?

I’ve heard of cases that are supposed to be possession and inexplicable by any other means, but I’ve never seen one first hand

I have. Nothing to mess with.

and I’ve also heard people who think God was a space man who came here on a UFO and that Pyramids are landing sites.

Art Bell show?

Well I’ve certainly seen the odd case of schizophrenia that mimics the descriptions of posession and spiritual attack.

Which brings up the question of whether the personalities are different spirits.

Well there we have to agree to differ, because I’ve never seen an incident of this kind that I didn’t find the evidence of physical or psychological causes to be compelling.

That's a big topic, guess we'll have to leave it. I think the whole profession is pretty bogus, right from it's founding nuts who got it rolling! Like Freud, and Nietzsche.
"In heaven, all the interesting people are missing.

In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule.
Friedrich Nietzsche

Then I don’t see why you would call it “physical only” if you don’t actually mean “physical only”. To me, I believe the physical world is governed by the laws of physics because that's what God created the laws of physics for.

So do I, except He made the physical universe as it was seperated from the merged one, and it's design is temporary. Planned obsolescence.

I also believe there is a spiritual world, but I believe it does not come into the physical world o warp the laws of nature, or at least not with any degree of frequency.

What about Gabriel and Mary, and the angels in Jesus' tomb, and the light Paul saw from heaven, and the prison break in Acts, where angels busted em out, and John boiling in oil, not getting hurt, etc?