Dinos in the Ark?

[Opethian]

Salt would have come up from the subteranean waters, and mist.

lol! Ever heard of the terms solution/precipitation? And about evaporite deposits? Salty mists are IMPOSSIBLE!!!

 

[dad]

lol! Ever heard of the terms solution/precipitation? And about evaporite deposits? Salty mists are IMPOSSIBLE!!!

Very funny. You guys are predictable, trying to assign the present to the past is your motis operendi. The evaporating comes in when the salt is on the surface. The word mist might be throwing you, if you think of it in modern terms.
It deboes the coming up of water from below.
"Translation of several Hebrew and Greek terms with a combined range of meaning including subterranean water, fog, and clouds. http://www.studylight.org/dic/hbd/view.cgi?number=T4353
In this case, that is where the water came up from, possibly being transported with it salts and things. No surface salt mists, etc. Not like the present, although water can come up through soil.

Some theories even have lots of water down below the earth today. But I would think the water then came from the pre flood reservoirs below the earth, now gone, as they came up as the fountains of the deep were opened. But here is how some think water may be down there.
"What's the last thing you would expect to find in this hellish environment? Water. Vast amounts of the stuff. In fact, more than 400 kilometres inside the Earth there may be enough water to replace the surface oceans more than ten times." (?)
http://www.ldolphin.org/deepwaters.html

Yes, water, and salt could have come up.

 

[Opethian]

Yes, water, and salt could have come up.

NO! Water can come up, but salt CAN'T. When water evaporates in the way you describe it, the salt precipitates on the surface, because as the water is evaporated, the remaining solution is more concentrated, and after a while the precipitation constant is reached, causing the salt to precipitate on the soil. The mist you describe would not hold any real amounts of dissolved ions, including NaCl (which you probably mean by "salt"). That is how the salt deposits which are excavated in many arid regions came to be: by the evaporation of large water bassins, causing the salts to precipitate in large quantities.
If you had a basic knowledge of chemistry/geology, you would have known this. Yet, you're still the same idiot without a clue, living in a fantasy world where there are no facts, no laws, no nothing except the ridiculous ideas that sprout from your underdeveloped mind.

 

[dad]

...about 2000 years ago, the world was inhabited by elves, dwarves, dragons, and Sauron and Frodo!
Dad, if you have arguments as to why this would be impossible, please state them. I'll be glad to refute them .....

There are dwarves now, probably then as well. Dragons we see in Job, in the deep, some feel, like huge sort of dino sea serpents. China is big on that sort of thing. As for elves, they supposedly lived forever, and seem similar to some of the old gods of maybe the Greeks or Romans. Spirits, in other words, which we know there are, both good and bad, so there could be some grain of truth in some of those stories of spirits, and their exploits. That leaves Sauron and Frodo. I have met a wizard, so they do exist, the one named in the story was pure fiction, all you have to do is research the author, and his own words on the book, but again, loosely based on the real world, as there is the occult. Frodo, well, again, fiction. Some villigers in England may have struck the author as short, which right there means it is based on far far more reality than Granny, or the creator speck, which is pure PO fantasizing.
That's what you need to defend, but can't so try to switch fables.

 

[dad]

NO! Water can come up, but salt CAN'T. When water evaporates in the way you describe it, the salt precipitates on the surface,

Yes, on the surface we now have the process happening here, so? What has this got to do with transporting it up from deep below the earth?

The mist you describe would not hold any real amounts of dissolved ions

Guess you didn't read, or comprehend the last post! The 'mist' was subteranean waters coming up, not some surface thing.

If you had a basic knowledge of chemistry/geology, you would have known this. Yet, you're still the same idiot without a clue,

Go ahead, give yourself all the rope you need here. Ha.

living in a fantasy world where there are no facts, no laws, no nothing except the ridiculous ideas that sprout from your underdeveloped mind.

Hey, so far you have not even exhibited reading comprehension skills, you should talk!?

 

[Opethian]

There are dwarves now, probably then as well. Dragons we see in Job, in the deep, some feel, like huge sort of dino sea serpents. China is big on that sort of thing. As for elves, they supposedly lived forever, and seem similar to some of the old gods of maybe the Greeks or Romans. Spirits, in other words, which we know there are, both good and bad, so there could be some grain of truth in some of those stories of spirits, and their exploits. That leaves Sauron and Frodo. I have met a wizard, so they do exist, the one named in the story was pure fiction, all you have to do is research the author, and his own words on the book, but again, loosely based on the real world, as there is the occult. Frodo, well, again, fiction. Some villigers in England may have struck the author as short, which right there means it is based on far far more reality than Granny, or the creator speck, which is pure PO fantasizing.
That's what you need to defend, but can't so try to switch fables.

The author is a puppet of the deity that created middle earth, making it seem as if his book is fiction. It takes FAITH to understand that my God once created Middle Earth. Sauron was not just fiction, he was the physical manifestation of all evil in this merged spiritual/physical world. Frodo was the son of the deity, who placed a part of himself in Bilbo, who would be his physical manifestation in the world, and would continue himself in a younger form as Frodo. All these events took place only 200 years ago! Frodo reproduced very very well and all his offspring carefull excavated the entire outer crust of the earth to make it appear as it appears today. They used magic to create fossils etc... they could basically do anything they want because of this merged spiritual/physical world. The whole process was led by the mighty Gandalf, who made sure no errors were made in this falsification, and that is how we are all misled today. They even made false settlements and literature, creating all history till 1806. They set a magic time-bomb to make a civilization pop out at 1806 that had a memory set as Frodo and Gandalf had made history appear. Only one fact remains today, that leads to the way the earth was 200 years ago: A half-molten ring in a volcano deep under the ocean, the only thing they did not change in the earth.

 

[dad]

So you admit it's a fantasy.

No, I said the pre split world rates were fantastic, compared to the presnt ones! -AS in this definition "3 Wonderful or superb; remarkable"
Why try to twist meanings, guess you have stooped to desperate tactics in your repeated defeats here.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/fantastic

A salty mist. Another fantasy. So you admit the world you describe was nuts. Thanks.

Already explained in another post. The 'mist' refered to subteranean water coming up from deep in the earth. Water transport through the nice looser, new planet soil of the merged world of the time.

I don't see any further need for discussion for someone who admits that the fantasy world he describes is nuts.

All I admit is your fantasy world is nuts, and never existed.

 

[Opethian]

Yes, on the surface we now have the process happening here, so? What has this got to do with transporting it up from deep below the earth?

It doesn't matter, on the surface, 100 m down in the earth, the salt precipitates...

Guess you didn't read, or comprehend the last post! The 'mist' was subteranean waters coming up, not some surface thing.

Now you're lying. You said subterranean waters AND mist. Subterranean waters CAN bring salt from the deep, but this rarely happens. Mist is a gaseous form of water and can't bring any salt up. Learn to read what you write yourself...

Go ahead, give yourself all the rope you need here. Ha.

The only one who needs rope is you, to hang yourself, since you're of no use to this world except a few laughs at your ridiculous fantasies.

Hey, so far you have not even exhibited reading comprehension skills, you should talk!?

I have excellent comprehension skills, unlike others, who can't even comprehend themselves...

 

[dad]

It doesn't matter, on the surface, 100 m down in the earth, the salt precipitates...

Does the "m" here mean meters or miles?

Subterranean waters CAN bring salt from the deep, but this rarely happens.

Well, thank you!
Who said it does? I was suggesting it may have in the past, in the merged world, one way or another, and there are a lot of potential ways to work with then! Temperature, for example deep under the earth is open to speculation that it may not have been near as warm then. Atomic level changes, that could produce mixes impossible, and even explosive in today's world. Just ading or taking away an electron here, or a negative charge there, or etc can have tremendous implications. Remember, there was, I suggest no radioactive decay even back then. Then, there is the factor much of the salt may have come up when the fountains of the deep opened as well.
This doesn't even touch on the rings of the earth, or canopy, or whatever it may have been above us at the time! What chemicals may it have contained?
"While Saturn's rings are almost exclusively composed of water ice, new findings show the Cassini Division contains relatively more "dirt" than ice. "
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/cassini/media/cassini-070204.html

Mist is a gaseous form of water and can't bring any salt up. Learn to read what you write yourself...

Get a grip here, the water coming up was called a mist, but is best translated as I have outlined.

The only one who needs rope is you, to hang yourself, since you're of no use to this world except a few laughs at your ridiculous fantasies.

Wow! Not just wrong, in disagreeing with the standard PO past beliefs, but now, of no use to this world! Calm down, winning isn't everything, sounds like learning to lose, (a lot) is good for you.

I have excellent comprehension skills, unlike others, who can't even comprehend themselves...

Good, glad you are a whiz. Thank goodness you are not like some others, I guess. Guess it's hard to be humble when you're perfect in every way?

 

[dad]

The author is a puppet of the deity that created middle earth, making it seem as if his book is fiction. It takes FAITH to understand that my God once created Middle Earth.

The author was a christian. No need for speculation.

Sauron was not just fiction, he was the physical manifestation of all evil in this merged spiritual/physical world.

What is a merged physical world?

Frodo was the son of the deity, who placed a part of himself in Bilbo, who would be his physical manifestation in the world, and would continue himself in a younger form as Frodo. All these events took place only 200 years ago!

So, I guess your latest fantasy happened in 1806! Closr to the time of the Lewis and Clark expedition. Guess the records missed your dreamland.

Frodo reproduced very very well and all his offspring carefull excavated the entire outer crust of the earth to make it appear as it appears today.

Hard work indeed, for just two hundred years, especially doing it undetected!

They used magic to create fossils etc... they could basically do anything they want because of this merged spiritual/physical world.

Could they pop the whole universe in and out of a teensy speck, and produce all life on earth from one lifeform appearing magic act?

The whole process was led by the mighty Gandalf, who made sure no errors were made in this falsification, and that is how we are all misled today. They even made false settlements and literature, creating all history till 1806.

OK, Rome, Egypt, Greece, ancient Undia, & China, Napoleon, etc, all out the window. OK.

They set a magic time-bomb to make a civilization pop out at 1806 that had a memory set as Frodo and Gandalf had made history appear. Only one fact remains today, that leads to the way the earth was 200 years ago: A half-molten ring in a volcano deep under the ocean, the only thing they did not change in the earth.

Never really melted all the way when they threw in in, eh, tough break.
No accident that old agers live in their created fantasies. The tragedy is that they teach the innocent young people their stories and fables, falsely called science, as if it were true. That is no joke, and bullyism and abuse at it's very worst.

 

[Opethian]

Does the "m" here mean meters or miles?

It doesn't matter! even if it was 10 km, it would still precipitate!

Temperature, for example deep under the earth is open to speculation that it may not have been near as warm then.

The earth was WARMER in the past! Get your facts right. The energy released by nuclear radiation from the elements dropping to lower energy levels gets lower as the cycle gets further down the row of elements.

Atomic level changes, that could produce mixes impossible, and even explosive in today's world. Just ading or taking away an electron here, or a negative charge there, or etc can have tremendous implications. "

Taking away a negative charge produces the same element with a different charge...
Taking away an electron=taking away a negative charge.
These are processes occuring all the time in today's world and they do not have the "tremendous implications" you would figure they have...
Man you are dumb...

Remember, there was, I suggest no radioactive decay even back then. Then, there is the factor much of the salt may have come up when the fountains of the deep opened as well.

Your suggestions are impossible and incredibly stupid. I don't care if you suggest 5 years ago electrons and atoms were shaped like giant [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] and there were talking dinosaurs that could move at the speed of light, it would make as much sense as what you're implying now!

This doesn't even touch on the rings of the earth, or canopy, or whatever it may have been above us at the time! What chemicals may it have contained?
"While Saturn's rings are almost exclusively composed of water ice, new findings show the Cassini Division contains relatively more "dirt" than ice.

Yes, how the hell does it help your case that somewhere lightyears away this is the case? It's not the case on earth, and even if it was, it still wouldn't help your case!!!

Get a grip here, the water coming up was called a mist, but is best translated as I have outlined.

[sarcasm]
Yes obviously you know best how to translate everything, since you have such a good grip on reality and possess such an amazing interpreting power...
[/sarcasm]

Wow! Not just wrong, in disagreeing with the standard PO past beliefs, but now, of no use to this world! Calm down, winning isn't everything, sounds like learning to lose, (a lot) is good for you.

[sarcasm]
Yes, obviously anyone on this forum can see I'm losing this debate with you... You're making much more sense than me! and you have soooo much evidence backing you up!
[/sarcasm]

Good, glad you are a whiz. Thank goodness you are not like some others, I guess. Guess it's hard to be humble when you're perfect in every way?

"Some others" was a hint in your direction. If being smarter than you was a criterium to be a whiz, everyone on this planet except you would be a whiz...

 

[Opethian]

The author was a christian. No need for speculation.

How do you know? Did you ever meet the author? How do you know the sources where you got this information are not part of the lie?

What is a merged physical world?

It says merged physical/spiritual world... and no I didn't edit it...

So, I guess your latest fantasy happened in 1806! Closr to the time of the Lewis and Clark expedition. Guess the records missed your dreamland.

As I said, it was made to appear like this. I explained it further down.

Hard work indeed, for just two hundred years, especially doing it undetected!

They didn't do it in these 200 years, they did it in the many years before our time.

Could they pop the whole universe in and out of a teensy speck, and produce all life on earth from one lifeform appearing magic act?

You seem to have no idea what is possible in my merged world!

OK, Rome, Egypt, Greece, ancient Undia, & China, Napoleon, etc, all out the window. OK.

Yes they were very good at making up fables!

Never really melted all the way when they threw in in, eh, tough break.
No accident that old agers live in their created fantasies. The tragedy is that they teach the innocent young people their stories and fables, falsely called science, as if it were true. That is no joke, and bullyism and abuse at it's very worst.

The irony, the hypocrisy, too funny...
Ok I'm pretty convinced you're just faking it now.

 

[duordi]

The angel was there to keep man from getting back in, not for keeping animals out.

True but you missed the point.

How do you get into the garden to destroy it?

Can we be certain of this, just because none were mentioned till Cain and Able? I think the record is of Adam and Eve's offspring, and even there, of the males, in particular. What about females? Who says they may not have had 'litters' full -before and after?

4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bore Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

It sure sounds like this is her first, just by how she named him.

I would guess you are having a problem with the idea that Adam and Eve with a perfect upbringing, perfect health etc. would still choose to rebel so quickly.

If this is the case then you have an incorrect understanding of the nature of mankind. We are not good at our innermost being but evil.

If we were basically good there would be no need to change us.

Then, here is something else to think about. If Eve had daughters, who had little boys, either in or out of the garden (yes, like rabbits, hard to say who fathered what, except for the official record of the males) -they wouldn't be in the record there, just Adam's boys, and their eldest boy after that, on down the line. There are millions of sexy loopholes to be fruitful and multiply with there, you could drive a Mac truck through them!

Your statement above is the best indication that Cain was the first.

If you assume Cain was not the first the text can no longer be taken as an overview or accurate account of what happened.

The idea that brothers and sisters should not intermarry is based on a genetic problem caused when genes are flawed.

The genes are in good shape at this time and so there is no problem with intermarrying.

If the garden was closed, and animals were made for man, what would they do in that ghost town?

Multiply

One of the creatures in Eden, God told this.

" Gen 2:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. "

Doesn't sound like the serpent was to stay in the garden by itself, really, does it? How could there be bruising, and enmity, etc, unless they were together?

Also, if it is true that all creatures (save trilobites, and some made for the earth at large) were in Eden, as this seems to indicate ..

"Gen 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. 20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field;"

Not so hard to do if they were all right there nearby! By the power of deduction, we can see that man needed his creatures, so they must have come out as well. This is evidenced by how we see there were sheep, etc out of the garden, as you pointed out, whebn they were out of the garden. (God also made them a fur coat, Greenpeace, eat your heart out!)

I mean, usually, when we name animals in our yard, it is because we own them, and they are like our pets, or our animals. WE are the masters of the planet, remember. Gen 1:26 "..let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. "

If you had dominion over the animals, and maybe even could talk to them, would you not tell them to follow you as you moved? They gave the milk, coats, wool, cheese, plowed the earth, etc. They were more or less the currency of the time, or the riches man had.

You have a misunderstanding about who and what the serpent is.

3:1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made.

The serpent was not a beast of the field.

If the serpent was a beast of the field the text would be "serpent was more subtle then any other beast of the field".

The serpent was Satan as defined in other Bible texts.

The prophecy of a conflict between the women’s seed and the serpent’s seed concerned the Christ and Satan’s followers.

Regarding the animals leaving with Adam. It does not say the God drove the Man and the animals out. Only that He drove the man out.

To get more then this you have to add something to the text that is not there.

PS Someone raised the question a while ago if we know when Cain and Able did their thing, I said I thought we did not know. Apparently, this bible commentary says we do know!

", let it be observed that the death of Abel took place in the one hundred and twenty-eighth or one hundred and twenty-ninth year of the world. Now, "supposing Adam and Eve to have had no other sons than Cain and Abel

I cut you logical progression because based on this text your conclusions would be incorrect.

Gen 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth: 5:4 And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:.

PPS What better way of God driving Adam out of the garden after the fall, then the animals, who were now hostile!? Like living in a zoo with no cages, and snakes that are out to get you!

How would it be any better outside the garden?

Besides man would venture into the garden at least long enough to get some fruit from the tree of life.

I have enjoyed our discussion.

It isn’t often I find someone here who puts some thought into their responses.

Duane

 

[DJ_Ghost]

The earth was WARMER in the past! Get your facts right. The energy released by nuclear radiation from the elements dropping to lower energy levels gets lower as the cycle gets further down the row of elements.

Oh not in Dads fantasy reality where the Earth has a liquid crystal core, the flood waters were blown to Mars when God finished with them and the laws of physics didn’t apply before the flood. he should write for Wizards of the coast should Dad, his ability to create bizarre fantasy worlds would be a huge asset to them.

Your suggestions are impossible

Welcome to Dad world, check your laws of physics at the door.

[sarcasm]
Yes obviously you know best how to translate everything, since you have such a good grip on reality and possess such an amazing interpreting power...
[/sarcasm]

Sarcasm was different before the split as well.

"Some others" was a hint in your direction. If being smarter than you was a criterium to be a whiz, everyone on this planet except you would be a whiz...

Of course, you never met Colossians did you?

Ghost

 

[dad]

How do you know? Did you ever meet the author? How do you know the sources where you got this information are not part of the lie?

"
What Tolkien did was help Lewis see how the two sides, reason and imagination, could be integrated. During the two men's night conversation on the Addison Walk in the grounds of Magdalen College, Tolkien showed Lewis how the two sides could be reconciled in the Gospel narratives. The Gospels had all the qualities of great human storytelling. But they portrayed a true event—God the storyteller entered his own story, in the flesh, and brought a joyous conclusion from a tragic situation. Suddenly Lewis could see that the nourishment he had always received from great myths and fantasy stories was a taste of that greatest, truest story—of the life, death, and resurrection of Christ.

So Tolkien brought the imagination right into the center of Lewis's life. And then, through a gradual process, with the example of Tolkien's Silmarillion tales and Lord of the Rings before him, Lewis learned how to communicate Christian faith in imaginative writing. The results were Narnia, the space trilogy, The Great Divorce, and so forth."
This is where their third shared commitment came into play—this sense of wholeness was a Christian approach, distant from the neo-pagan mysticism of some romantics, the "Pan worship" of the early twentieth century. Indeed, Tolkien worried increasingly towards the end of his life that people were missing the Christian balance of his work, and were taking it almost as the basis of a new paganism. You could argue in fact that one reason Tolkien didn't finish the Silmarillion was his concern to make his imaginative creations consonant with Christianity. Obviously not wanting to make them into allegory or preachment, he was concerned his literary insights be clearly consistent with Christianity.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2003/134/52.0.html

As I said, it was made to appear like this. I explained it further down.

So what, you can say birds came from dinos, or all life from Granny, it is just words.

Yes they were very good at making up fables!

You could relate there.

The irony, the hypocrisy, too funny...
Ok I'm pretty convinced you're just faking it now.

Hate to disillusion you, but you might want to ask your wife about the topic, if you have one.

 

[ImmortalTechnique]

dad isn't real... he appears to be a nonsense robot

 

[Phred]

Jennifer Aniston

 

[Industriaan]

Dad is the proof for creationisme, it is impossible someone like him could be here throughout natural selection!

 

[dad]

True but you missed the point.

How do you get into the garden to destroy it?

Have you ever seen a highway that was rerouted, and grew over in several years? Imagine then, with the growth rates. A garden grows over if not tended, and abandoned.

4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bore Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

It sure sounds like this is her first, just by how she named him.

The first male Eve had, perhaps. But there may have been thousands of people around, via Eves unmentioned daughters, and their male children, who grew up! Looking at the wording there, it would fit, just think of someone who never had a boy before, like her daughters. 'Wow, finally, thank God, ' I have gotten a man from the LORD'

I would guess you are having a problem with the idea that Adam and Eve with a perfect upbringing, perfect health etc. would still choose to rebel so quickly.

If this is the case then you have an incorrect understanding of the nature of mankind. We are not good at our innermost being but evil.

Well, we don't know how long it was they were in the garden, that falls in the realm of guesswork.

Your statement above is the best indication that Cain was the first.

If you assume Cain was not the first the text can no longer be taken as an overview or accurate account of what happened.

The idea that brothers and sisters should not intermarry is based on a genetic problem caused when genes are flawed.

An overview of a geneology from the first man, and his sons, and their sons, on down the line. This does not mean a whole lot of hanky panky was not going on all around, and many many people obeyed the command to be fruitful, and have lots of babies.

The genes are in good shape at this time and so there is no problem with intermarrying.

You seem to assume a past that was the same as now, where genes were damaged a lot. They were good pretty well as long as the merged world was here! Remember, Noah was in the same boat!!

You have a misunderstanding about who and what the serpent is.

3:1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made.

The serpent was not a beast of the field.

If the serpent was a beast of the field the text would be "serpent was more subtle then any other beast of the field".

The serpent was Satan as defined in other Bible texts.

But so was Simon Peter talking to Jesus one time, when Jesus said something like 'Satan, get behind me'! In other words spirits enter into physical beings, and can talk through them. The Serpent was some kind of creature there.

The prophecy of a conflict between the women’s seed and the serpent’s seed concerned the Christ and Satan’s followers.

Well, maybe the conflict first took the form of the now on it's belly, hyper evoluted serpent, along with the rest of the now wild Eden animals chasing them out of the garden? A seperation after the fall, between the relationship man had with animals happened. They now dreaded us.

Regarding the animals leaving with Adam. It does not say the God drove the Man and the animals out. Only that He drove the man out.

It doesn't say how, but we know that animals did come out, because we had sheep, etc. Also, Eden is long gone, but we have animals all over. Elementary, Watson, they must have left Eden, and spead out as well.

To get more then this you have to add something to the text that is not there.

No, 2 + 2 = 4 Animals were out of Eden, they must have come out.

Gen 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth: 5:4 And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:.

But we know he had children before this, so it's a moot point! Cain and Able were before this Seth, for example. We have a brain for a reason.

How would it be any better outside the garden?

More room to run, and fight, and cultivate, and besides, God may have inspired the animals to drive us out of the garden. Once out, they would go about their business.

Besides man would venture into the garden at least long enough to get some fruit from the tree of life.

The guards were posted, this couldn't happen.

I have enjoyed our discussion.

It isn’t often I find someone here who puts some thought into their responses.

Duane

Not that many here who actually believe the stuff.

 

[dad]

Jennifer Aniston

The old age factions will go on imposing their will on others, unless the decent people connected to them recognize that their religion has no place in public policy. They must learn to make their views known without trying to make their views the only alternatives.
The bully boy evo tactics must be confronted. Speaking of trolls, that is the behaviour Phred, you exhibit here, in not engaging in actual debate of any kind.