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Featured Did You Really Not Know That Christ Must Be Obeyed? --Yes, You!

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Religiot, May 23, 2020.

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  1. Swan7

    Swan7 Made in the image of His Grace Supporter

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    If someone has an analogy in trying to understand God’s ways, I’m not gonna find fault in that. We ought to be thanking God for those He calls - and they answer in repentance; even angels in heaven rejoice: Luke 15:10

    Those who are more mature in faith ought to mentor those that are young in faith. :yellowheart:
     
  2. Religiot

    Religiot Active Member

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    As you know, this thread is not about any particular chapter of the bible--so I won't argue the error of your interpretation of that text--it is exclusively about Christians who have been robbed of what it means to believe in Christ.

    True belief in Christ presupposes obedience to Him.

    This presupposition is by intuition from the Holy Spirit living within, and it can be easily observed in new converts.

    Unfortunately, I have also observed the contrary condition that develops overtime, amongst those who have forgotten what they felt when they first believed.

    This robbery of the truth from out of their hearts is the work of Satan, by lies, against those who did not understand:

    "When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side." --Matthew 13:19

    Not all who call Christ, Lord, are His.

    Faith alone is dead.

    Godspeed.
     
  3. Religiot

    Religiot Active Member

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    Amen.
     
  4. Hammster

    Hammster God’s World, God’s Rules Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    What does obedience gain us? Or what does disobedience lose us?
     
  5. Religiot

    Religiot Active Member

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    Same answer for both questions: Eternal Salvation.

    "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." --Hebrews 5:9
     
  6. Hammster

    Hammster God’s World, God’s Rules Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Okay. So now I know where you add coming from.

    How perfectly must you obey Him?
     
  7. genez

    genez Contributor Supporter

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    Did you say that because you see yourself as qualified to fit the statement...

    Those who are more mature in faith ought to mentor those that are young in faith. :yellowheart:

    You see yourself as the more mature?
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2020
  8. genez

    genez Contributor Supporter

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    The Romans used to deify their Caesars. They were to refer to them as a "god." Caesar is Kurios! (god).
    Its one reason why Christians would get in trouble with Rome for calling Jesus Christ "Kurios" - Lord. For only Caesar was to be "god."

    It does not have to mean "master," though it might when referring to a mere man. Jesus was not a mere man. Nor, was Caesar seen as a mere man.

    Jesus is Lord (God)....
    https://www.oakbrookbible.com/single-post/2018/03/21/Jesus-is-Lord----Kurios
     
  9. bbbbbbb

    bbbbbbb Well-Known Member

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    This is not limited, of course, to Greek. In German the word for mister is Herr, which is also the word for lord. Also in German the word for boys is Jungen, which is also the word for disciples. Thus in the German Bible there are verses which talk about Herr Jesus und Seinem Jungen, which is probably translated into English as Lord Jesus and His disciples, but could be equally correctly translated as Mr. Jesus and his boys.
     
  10. genez

    genez Contributor Supporter

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    Could "Herr" be referring to Deity? To God?

    They were not speaking German in Rome.

    The discipline of Biblical Isagogics would not allow for, and would reject that German interpretation. The words held specific meaning at the time the Bible was written.
     
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  11. bbbbbbb

    bbbbbbb Well-Known Member

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    As with any language, the vocabulary does not have specific words for items which other languages differentiate. For example, the Inuit language family has multiple words for varying forms of frozen precipitation where as English has a handful, at best. We are content with describing snow as snow, as opposed to having specific words describing varying forms of snow.

    In Greek, for example, the word Πνεύμα can be validly translated as breath, wind, spirit, or Spirit. Usually, as in other languages with this problem, the context determines the meaning, but there are a few times in the New Testament where the context, at best, is ambiguous.
     
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  12. Religiot

    Religiot Active Member

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    Sir, I simply agreed strongly with the comment, which included in the preface an exhortation to tolerance...

    I personally regard myself as no one, that's why I refuse to appeal to myself in anyway.

    In case you feel that you can despise me for perceived immaturity, I'll caution you with the following:

    "Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity. Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine." --1 Timothy 4:12-13

    Particularly the phrase, "Till I come."

    I see the above as the words of the Lord, through Paul, to anyone who works in the ministry, regardless of age, or maturity, that they continue, until He comes.

    I am willing to defend what I believe to be the truth, in a respectful manner, so please, why not just address the questions I've raised, and specifically, why not respond to my last post to you? --that would be more fruitful than attempting to goad me into some personal argument. --and I think you'll agree.
     
  13. Phil W

    Phil W Well-Known Member

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    The iniquity Jesus cited in Matt 7:23..."And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
    They were sinners purportedly doing miracles in Jesus' name.
     
  14. Religiot

    Religiot Active Member

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    Well, your question presupposes that our obedience to Christ is somehow being measured. That presupposition leads me to believe that you are unaware of the kind of obedience referred to by Christ.

    I think the following will make that very clear to you:

    OBEDIENCE THAT IS WITHOUT BELIEF RENDERS WORKS THAT ARE DEAD:

    "For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God. And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; but Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: when your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; while it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. For if Joshua had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief." --Hebrews 3:3-19; 4:1-11

    "Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment." --Hebrews 6:1-2

    "How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?" --Hebrews 9:14

    To illustrate with a modern example, a dead work would be the building of an orphanage by a wicked, wealthy man, who does so "just in case" there is a judgement, as insurance, or hedge, against his wicked lifestyle.

    An orphanage is great, but that work is worthless before God on the part of that man, because he did it in unbelief, and is in fact counted as sin against him, instead of fruit to everlasting treasure for him.

    So too did the Israelites when they obeyed God, but did it without faith, always complaining and doubting, and ultimately disobeying in critical matters, costing themselves entrance into the promised land. This did their children also, when Joshua led them in, etc.

    They're obedience was by compulsion, and momentary, but the obedience that is of faith is constant and eternal. Examples of this were Joshua, Caleb, and Moses, to name a few; and tho Moses did not enter in because of a mistake he made in anger, he serves as one of the greatest examples in world history, of the obedience of faith, and the grace of God: for tho he disobeyed, God's grace preserved his life, because Moses was not of a rebellious heart, but disobeyed by mistake through the temptation of anger, against a faithless complaining people.

    Moses is an excellent illustration of a heart right before God, but able to disobey by temptation, yet preserved by God because of his heart toward God. So too is David, and many others, who disobeyed, but were not committed to disobedience, but repentance, yet were led astray by temptation. This is why God's grace is required for salvation.

    BELIEF THAT IS WITHOUT OBEDIENCE RENDERS FAITH THAT IS DEAD:

    "What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." --Romans 6:15-23

    "But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." --Romans 10:8-17

    "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." --Romans 12:1-2

    "Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God, that I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost. I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God. For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed, through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ." --Romans 15:15-19

    I don't think it's necessary to continue to cite from other books to make this point, I just thought it would be a good idea to use Romans as a reference for, because I usually find it used as a reference against the obedience of faith: which is ironic, because it is the book that talks the most about obedience.

    ALL THINGS REVEALED ARE FOR THE OBEDIENCE OF FAITH:

    "Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, but now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: to God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen." --Romans 16:25-27

    No one can earn salvation, the mere suggestion is absurd.

    We are saved by God's grace, through our faith, and there is nothing that we can do to cause God to owe us anything. --We owe Him everything, so why not just obey Him?

    Let me know what you think, thanks.
     
  15. Phil W

    Phil W Well-Known Member

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    If it is a "reality" for believers, why are so many alleged believers unholy?
    The unholy are certainly not in Christ.

    Hardly, as I know others whom they do apply to.

    Only you know if they apply to you or not.

    Which point do you figure I am incorrect about?

    The weakness Paul referred to were physical maladies, not to knowledge.

    I pray that we all keep growing in TRUE grace and knowledge.

    If the grace, wisdom, and truth lead to righteousness, they are of God.
    But if they are used t accommodate and even justify sin, they are of the devil.
     
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  16. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    If you take the mark of the beast will you just lose your rewards?
     
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  17. Phil W

    Phil W Well-Known Member

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    In Phil 3:15, Paul added..."Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you."
    Apparently Paul and others considered themselves as perfect as a repentant man can be while waiting for the glorified vessel.

    Agreed.

    Actually, in this context, (1 Cor 3:8-15), the "wood, hay, and stubble" are those we have brought to Christ but have forsaken the faith.
    They will burn but we will be saved anyway.
    I am a jewel in someone else's labor.

    I feel everyone is capable of learning all there is to know about the doctrine which is according to Godliness.

    You seem to have forgotten that we have the mind of Christ here and now.
    We don't need the glorified body to keep walking in the light..."wherein is no darkness".

    Why did you change "salvation" to "rewards"?
    Or am I mistaken?

    Those living with false doctrine did not die with Him and aren't living with Him.
    They worship a doctrine instead of God.
     
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  18. bbbbbbb

    bbbbbbb Well-Known Member

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    What do you make of Romans 7?

    7:1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives? 2 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. 3 So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.

    4 Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

    7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. 9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; 10 and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; 11 for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

    13 Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.

    The Conflict of Two Natures
    14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

    21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
     
  19. Religiot

    Religiot Active Member

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    I never take it apart from chapters 6 and 8, for meaning.

    From reading some of your posts on this thread, I assume you're well aware, that chapter divisions are not present in the manuscript, and, of course, are only there now for ease of referencing.

    The real meaning is in the harmony of all that he's saying, otherwise, Paul's writings are the easiest to twist.
     
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  20. Hammster

    Hammster God’s World, God’s Rules Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    And they weren’t ever saved. Which is my point.
     
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