Did Yahshua and his Disciples Abstain from Meat?

HTacianas said:

Genesis 9:3 was God's ordinance for Noah. It allowed for eating all animals as food. Prohibition of unclean animals did not come along until the law of Moses.

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Genesis 7:2

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

Genesis 7:2

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That is not a prohibition.

HARK! said:

Of course they were. The Zadokites were of the tribe of Levi. John the Baptist's father was a Zadok priest. I suspect that he passed the Priesthood to John, who in turn passed it to Yahshua of the order of Melchi Zadok.

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Melekh Tzaddik...that has nothing to do with the Zaddokim

HTacianas said:

That is not a prohibition.

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Yes but he knew which were clean and not

HARK! said:

I'm not sure if the last supper was a Passover Seder. How could it be, if Yahshua said that he wished that he could have the Passover meal with his disciples; then he was executed, the next day, not on Passover, but on preparation day, the day before Passover. That's two days off. Even if we go by the Qumran calendar; it's still a day off.

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it was not. It was a seudah hamafsekhet

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

Yes but he knew which were clean and not

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But he was allowed to eat any of them.

HTacianas said:

But he was allowed to eat any of them.

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Then there would be no reason for stating the differences...

HARK! said:

Do fish count as reptiles?


Irenaeus, Against Heresies 2:22

(3) He there seeing a great crowd had followed Him, fed all that multitude with five loaves of bread, and twelve baskets of fragments remained over and above.

No mention of fish.

Irenaeus, Against Heresies 2:24

and our Lord, after(1) blessing the five loaves, fed with them five thousand men.

No mention of fish.

Irenaeus Against Heresies, Book 2, Chapters 18 to 35 | CARM.org

Arnobius Against the Heathen 1:46

who with [f]ive loaves satisfied five thousand of His followers: and who, lest it might appear to the unbelieving and bard of heart to be an illusion, filled twelve capacious baskets with the fragments that remained?

CHURCH FATHERS: Against the Heathen, Book I (Arnobius)

No mention of fish.

Even Yahshua didn't mention the fish when he brought up that event just a few chapters later:

Matthew 16

5 Now when His disciples had come to the other side, they had forgotten to take bread. 6 Then Jesus said to them, “Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees.”

7 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, “It is because we have taken no bread.”

8 But Jesus, being aware of it, said to them, “O you of little faith, why do you reason among yourselves because you d]">[d]have brought no bread? 9 Do you not yet understand, or remember the five loaves of the five thousand and how many baskets you took up?

What is the leaven of the Pharisees? Hmm....It's when they add to the scripture.

Matthew 14:19
New King James Version
Then He commanded the multitudes to sit down on the grass. And He took the five loaves and the two fish, and looking up to heaven, He blessed and broke and gave the loaves to the disciples; and the disciples gave to the multitudes

Why didn't Yahshua bless the fish? Why didn't he give the fish to his disciples?

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CHAPTER 20 -- FUTILITY OF THE ARGUMENTS ADDUCED TO DEMONSTRATE THE SUFFERINGS OF THE TWELFTH AEON, FROM THE PARABLES, THE TREACHERY OF JUDAS, AND THE PASSION OF OUR SAVIOUR.

CHAPTER 21 -- THE TWELVE APOSTLES WERE NOT A TYPE OF THE AEONS.

CHAPTER 22 -- THE THIRTY AEONS ARE NOT TYPIFIED BY THE FACT THAT CHRIST WAS BAPTIZED IN HIS THIRTIETH YEAR: HE DID NOT SUFFER IN THE TWELFTH MONTH AFTER HIS BAPTISM, BUT WAS MORE THAN FIFTY YEARS OLD WHEN HE DIED.

Irenaeus Against Heresies, Book 2, Chapters 18 to 35 | CARM.org has an error in their sources.

Here is what Irenaeus really wrote:

"4. But that this point is true, that that number which is called five, which agrees in no respect with their argument, and does not harmonize with their system, nor is suitable for a typical manifestation of the things in the Pleroma, [yet has a wide prevalence, ] will be proved as follows from the Scriptures. Soter is a name of five letters; Pater, too, contains five letters; Agape (love), too, consists of five letters; and our Lord, after blessing the five loaves, fed with them five thousand men. Five virgins Matthew 25:2, etc. were called wise by the Lord; and, in like manner, five were styled foolish." CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, II.24 (St. Irenaeus)

Irenaeus was not giving all the details, He was doing a brief summary of the ministry of Jesus off the top of his head.

"Afterwards He went up, the second time, to observe the festival day of the passover in Jerusalem; on which occasion He cured the paralytic man, who had lain beside the pool thirty-eight years, bidding him rise, take up his couch, and depart. Again, withdrawing from thence to the other side of the sea of Tiberias, John 6:1, etc. He there seeing a great crowd had followed Him, fed all that multitude with five loaves of bread, and twelve baskets of fragments remained over and above. Then, when He had raised Lazarus from the dead, and plots were formed against Him by the Pharisees, He withdrew to a city called Ephraim; and from that place, as it is written He came to Bethany six days before the passover, John 11:54, John 12:1 and going up from Bethany to Jerusalem, He there ate the passover, and suffered on the day following." CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, II.22 (St. Irenaeus)

John 6 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
Jesus Feeds More Than 5000
6 Later, Jesus went across Lake Galilee (also known as Lake Tiberias). 2 A great crowd of people followed him because they saw the miraculous signs he did in healing the sick. 3 Jesus went up on the side of the hill and sat there with his followers. 4 It was almost the time for the Jewish Passover festival.

5 Jesus looked up and saw a crowd of people coming toward him. He said to Philip, “Where can we buy enough bread for all these people to eat?” 6 He asked Philip this question to test him. Jesus already knew what he planned to do.

7 Philip answered, “We would all have to work a month to buy enough bread for each person here to have only a little piece!”

8 Another follower there was Andrew, the brother of Simon Peter. Andrew said, 9 “Here is a boy with five loaves of barley bread and two little fish. But that is not enough for so many people.”

10 Jesus said, “Tell everyone to sit down.” This was a place with a lot of grass, and about 5000 men sat down there. 11 Jesus took the loaves of bread and gave thanks for them. Then he gave them to the people who were waiting to eat. He did the same with the fish. He gave them as much as they wanted.

12 They all had plenty to eat. When they finished, Jesus said to his followers, “Gather the pieces of fish and bread that were not eaten. Don’t waste anything.” 13 So they gathered up the pieces that were left. The people had started eating with only five loaves of barley bread. But the followers filled twelve large baskets with the pieces of food that were left.
Bible Gateway passage: John 6 - Easy-to-Read Version

ewq1938 said:

That's not what the verse says.

Luk 22:15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
Luk 22:16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.

He will eat the Passover at that time but will not eat anymore of this lamb until a fulfillment in the future. It's the last time he will eat of the Passover lamb.

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Except He died as the lambs were dying so did they sacrifice a lamb the day before special just for them?

ewq1938 said:

If Jesus did not eat the lamb, he would have been violating the Law.

(Numbers 9:10-13)

"... observe the Passover to the LORD. 'In the second month on the fourteenth day at twilight, they shall observe it; they shall eat it with unleavened bread and bitter herbs. 'They shall leave none of it until morning, nor break a bone of it; according to all the statute of the Passover they shall observe it. 'But the man who is clean and is not on a journey, and yet neglects to observe the Passover, that person shall then be cut off from his people, for he did not present the offering of the LORD at its appointed time. That man will bear his sin."

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He was the lamb that Pesakh!

ewq1938 said:

Jesus was not killed on the 14th. He was alive on the 15th, the first day of the feast of unleavened bread and that's when they ate of the Passover.

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Impossible

HARK! said:

Do fish count as reptiles?


Irenaeus, Against Heresies 2:22

(3) He there seeing a great crowd had followed Him, fed all that multitude with five loaves of bread, and twelve baskets of fragments remained over and above.

No mention of fish.

Irenaeus, Against Heresies 2:24

and our Lord, after(1) blessing the five loaves, fed with them five thousand men.

No mention of fish.

Irenaeus Against Heresies, Book 2, Chapters 18 to 35 | CARM.org

Arnobius Against the Heathen 1:46

who with [f]ive loaves satisfied five thousand of His followers: and who, lest it might appear to the unbelieving and bard of heart to be an illusion, filled twelve capacious baskets with the fragments that remained?

CHURCH FATHERS: Against the Heathen, Book I (Arnobius)

No mention of fish.

Even Yahshua didn't mention the fish when he brought up that event just a few chapters later:

Matthew 16

5 Now when His disciples had come to the other side, they had forgotten to take bread. 6 Then Jesus said to them, “Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees.”

7 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, “It is because we have taken no bread.”

8 But Jesus, being aware of it, said to them, “O you of little faith, why do you reason among yourselves because you d]">[d]have brought no bread? 9 Do you not yet understand, or remember the five loaves of the five thousand and how many baskets you took up?

What is the leaven of the Pharisees? Hmm....It's when they add to the scripture.

Matthew 14:19
New King James Version
Then He commanded the multitudes to sit down on the grass. And He took the five loaves and the two fish, and looking up to heaven, He blessed and broke and gave the loaves to the disciples; and the disciples gave to the multitudes

Why didn't Yahshua bless the fish? Why didn't he give the fish to his disciples?

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Matthew 16 was about the bread, not the fish. No reason for him to refer to fish.

Jesus’ Followers Misunderstand Him
5 Jesus and his followers went across the lake. But the followers forgot to bring bread. 6 Jesus said to the followers, “Be careful! Guard against the yeast of the Pharisees and the Sadducees.”

7 The followers discussed the meaning of this. They said, “Did Jesus say this because we forgot to bring bread?”

8 Jesus knew that they were talking about this. So he asked them, “Why are you talking about not having bread? Your faith is small. 9 Do you still not understand? Remember the five loaves of bread that fed the 5000 people and the many baskets you filled with the bread that was left? 10 And remember the seven loaves of bread that fed the 4000 people and the many baskets you filled that time? 11 So how could you think that I am concerned about bread? I am telling you to be careful and guard against the yeast of the Pharisees and the Sadducees.”

12 Then the followers understood what Jesus meant. He was not telling them to guard against the yeast used in bread. He was telling them to guard against the teaching of the Pharisees and the Sadducees.
em to guard against the teaching of the Pharisees and the Sadducees.

Matthew 14, not every author gives every detail John 6 makes it clear they ate the fish.

13 When Jesus heard what happened to John, he left in a boat. He went alone to a place where no one lived. But the people heard that Jesus had left. So they left their towns and followed him. They went by land to the same place he went. 14 When Jesus got out of the boat, he saw a large crowd of people. He felt sorry for them, and he healed the ones who were sick.

15 Late that afternoon, the followers came to Jesus and said, “No one lives in this place. And it is already late. Send the people away so they can go to the towns and buy food for themselves.”

16 Jesus said, “The people don’t need to go away. You give them some food to eat.”

17 The followers answered, “But we have only five loaves of bread and two fish.”

18 Jesus said, “Bring the bread and the fish to me.” 19 Then he told the people to sit down on the grass. He took the five loaves of bread and the two fish. He looked into the sky and thanked God for the food. Then he broke the bread into pieces, which he gave to the followers, and they gave the food to the people. 20 Everyone ate until they were full. When they finished eating, the followers filled twelve baskets with the pieces of food that were not eaten. 21 There were about 5000 men there who ate. There were also women and children who ate.

Daniel Marsh said:

I already gave scripture that it was a passover meal.

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It was a Pesakh SEUDAH HaMAFSEKHET

HARK! said:

I already covered this one in post #13


Here is what the CLV says concerning Noah:

(CLV) Gn 9:3
Every moving [animal] that [is] alive, shall be yours for food; as [with the] green herbage, I give to you every[thing].

Every moving animal? I usually trust the CLV; but what about clean and unclean?

The words in brackets were added by CLV and do not appear in the original text; so we are left with the Hebrew word for "moving (רֶמֶשׂ)."

When I plug (רֶמֶשׂ) into Google translate I get the word "insect."

https://translate.google.com/?tl=iw#view=home&op=translate&sl=auto&tl=en&text=רֶמֶשׂ

I also have a source which claims it to be the word "reptile."



That post can be found here: I Need Help From Those Who Are Fluent In Hebrew

I have more on this subject; but like I said, this aspect, of this topic, is taking me in multiple directions.

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A fish is an animal that lives only in the water, whereas a reptile lives in both land and water. A fish is an aquatic vertebrate that is cold blooded or ectothermic.

Difference Between Fish and Reptiles | Difference Between

Leviticus 11:42You must not eat any of the reptiles that crawl on their bellies or that walk on all four feet or that have many feet. Don’t eat these animals!

Acts 11:6and I looked inside. I saw all kinds of animals, including wild ones, as well as reptiles and birds.

James 3:7Humans have control over every kind of wild animal, bird, reptile, and fish, and they have controlled all these things.

HTacianas said:

"Moving" in that usage means "a moving thing that is alive", i.e., an animal. You're going to find Hebrew words with numerous definitions based on usage. It's the reason the old testament has it that insects have four legs. The meaning is "a thing that walks on all fours" even though insects have six legs. You'll find similar in reference to bats and birds, "things that fly". It can also mean an insect.

If you like you can compare your translation to a Jewish translation here:

Bereishit - Genesis - Chapter 9 (Parshah Noach)

Or you can use the Christian old testament in the Orthodox study bible.

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Where is Harks' translation online? Why is it not in Libraries or christian bookstores?

HARK! said:

What scripture? I've never seen that verse in ANY bible. I'm going to have to ask you to quote your source on that one.

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That has been given to you already by many.

HARK! said:

Rachel Elior offers some very interesting insights about who lived at Qumran; and who wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls. She presents strong evidence that it was the Zadok Priesthood that was in exile from the Temple.

This dissertation last for about an hour and a half; but I was riveted to her scholarly revelations. I learned much from this dissertation; but it left me with even yet more questions. Again, I see strong evidence that John the Baptist was Baptizing if not at Qumran, then very close to it. As that area is hostile desert; it's quite possible that he lived there. His father was Zadok. John was Zadok. Yahshua was Zadok.

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No speakers on my computer.

"Rachel Elior is an Israeli professor of Jewish philosophy at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem in Jerusalem, Israel. Her principal subject of research has been the history of early Jewish mysticism." Rachel Elior - Thrive Global
Rachel Elior | Hebrew University of Jerusalem - Academia.edu

Jewish Mysticism: The Infinite Expression of Freedom (Littman Library of Jewish Civilization) Jan 1, 2010
by Rachel Elior , Arthur B. Millman

Unity of Opposites: The Mystical Theosophy of Habad (Hebrew) (Hebrew Edition) Jan 1, 1992
by Rachel Elior

Rachel Elior - Google Scholar Citations

HARK! said:

I put my trust in YHWH.

(CLV) Jer 8:8
How can you say, We are wise, And the law of Yahweh is with us? Surely, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made a falsehood.

Surely you don't believe that Jeremiah is speaking evil of our heavenly Father?

Are you familiar with the JEPD Theory?

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At this point I am wondering which YHWH?

HARK! said:

(CLV) Lk 22:15
And He said to them, "With yearning I yearn to be eating this passover with you before My suffering.

(CLV) Lk 22:16
For I am saying to you that under no circumstances may I be eating of it till it may be fulfilled in the kingdom of God."

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Luke 22:7-23 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
The Passover Meal
7 The Day of Unleavened Bread[a] came. This was the day when the Jews always killed the lambs for the Passover. 8 Jesus said to Peter and John, “Go and prepare the Passover meal for us to eat.”

9 They said to him, “Where do you want us to prepare the meal?”

He said to them, 10 “When you go into the city, you will see a man carrying a jar of water. Follow him. He will go into a house. 11 Tell the owner of the house, ‘The Teacher asks that you please show us the room where he and his followers can eat the Passover meal.’ 12 Then the owner will show you a large room upstairs that is ready for us. Prepare the meal there.”

13 So Peter and John left. Everything happened the way Jesus said. So they prepared the Passover meal.

The Lord’s Supper
14 The time came for them to eat the Passover meal. Jesus and the apostles were together at the table. 15 Jesus said to them, “I wanted very much to eat this Passover meal with you before I die. 16 I will never eat another Passover meal until it is given its full meaning in God’s kingdom.”

17 Then Jesus took a cup of wine. He gave thanks to God for it and said, “Take this cup and give it to everyone here. 18 I will never drink wine again until God’s kingdom comes.”

19 Then he took some bread and thanked God for it. He broke off some pieces, gave them to the apostles and said, “This bread is my body that I am giving for you. Eat this to remember me.” 20 In the same way, after supper, Jesus took the cup of wine and said, “This wine represents the new agreement from God to his people. It will begin when my blood is poured out for you.”

Who Will Turn Against Jesus?
21 Jesus said, “But here on this table is the hand of the one who will hand me over to my enemies. 22 The Son of Man will do what God has planned. But it will be very bad for the one who hands over the Son of Man to be killed.”

23 Then the apostles asked each other, “Which one of us would do that?”

I forget where in the other gospels is the lord's supper?

Albion said:

Yes, but it begs the question. Was the Last Supper a Passover meal?

We often think, almost unconsciously, that it was one. That's because the evidence is there that the Apostles had been told to prepare such a meal. However, the undeniable 'new twist' that Christ put on that particular meal he had with his followers ("This is my body" etc.) suggests that it was not.

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Yes, it was a passover meal, but not on the day of passover as you point out.

Matthew 26:2“You know that the day after tomorrow is Passover. On that day the Son of Man will be handed over to his enemies to be killed on a cross.”

Matthew 26:5They said, “We cannot arrest Jesus during Passover. We don’t want the people to become angry and cause a riot.”

Matthew 26:17[ The Passover Meal ] On the first day of the Festival of Unleavened Bread, the followers came to Jesus. They said, “We will prepare everything for you to eat the Passover meal. Where do you want us to have the meal?”

Matthew 26:18Jesus answered, “Go into the city. Go to a man I know. Tell him that the Teacher says, ‘The chosen time is near. I will have the Passover meal with my followers at your house.’”

Matthew 26:19They obeyed and did what Jesus told them to do. They prepared the Passover meal.

I did not see that before. thanks for the memo friend.