Did we miss our turn somewhere?

[Revealing Times]

Why tell the 7 Churches "in haste" if it is thousands of years later? It makes more sense to take the common usage.

The two Greek words are EN and TACHOS. The common usage is obvious brother. You guys are the ones who have all of Revelation as past tense pretty much via one verse. The point is its not SHORTLY, its EN and TACHOS combined. and EN means at a future fixed point in time {only the father knows} Jesus will come IN HASTE. Now which makes more sense ? That all of Revelation is past tense or that Jesus is saying, at a future FIXED POINT IN TIME, I will come back IN HASTE ?

The later of course agrees with 95 percent of Christendom's thought process.

You keep going by the English Translation. I go by the original Greek words whenever there is a seeming conflict. The GREEK word EN tells us that the translators missed it, whenever you see one English word describe TWO Greek or Hebrew words you know they usually got something wrong. They did not understand it, they assumed Jesus was coming soon and they hoped that was what it meant, but Jesus was clearly saying EN {Fixed point in time} I will come in a short time frame, or in haste or speedily.

That makes much more sense then saying all of Revelation has passed.

Now if you want I can explain how all of Revelation will go down via the scriptures. So its not past tense. Be that as it may, have a blessed day my friend.

I enjoyed our back and forth. God Bless.

 

[Dave L]

The two Greek words are EN and TACHOS. The common usage is obvious brother. You guys are the ones who have all of Revelation as past tense pretty much via one verse. The point is its not SHORTLY, its EN and TACHOS combined. and EN means at a future fixed point in time {only the father knows} Jesus will come IN HASTE. Now which makes more sense ? That all of Revelation is past tense or that Jesus is saying, at a future FIXED POINT IN TIME, I will come back IN HASTE ?

The later of course agrees with 95 percent of Christendom's thought process.

You keep going by the English Translation. I go by the original Greek words whenever there is a seeming conflict. The GREEK word EN tells us that the translators missed it, whenever you see one English word describe TWO Greek or Hebrew words you know they usually got something wrong. They did not understand it, they assumed Jesus was coming soon and they hoped that was what it meant, but Jesus was clearly saying EN {Fixed point in time} I will come in a short time frame, or in haste or speedily.

That makes much more sense then saying all of Revelation has passed.

Now if you want I can explain how all of Revelation will go down via the scriptures. So its not past tense. Be that as it may, have a blessed day my friend.

I enjoyed our back and forth. God Bless.

Only the time from the first century until now has passed. There is more to come.

 

[nolidad]

I'm Amillennial. The problem is, people look for the symbols to appear and miss what they represent. Fulfillment began in some instances with the first advent and especially after John published Revelation.

In Revelation- only the exhortations to teh 7 actual churches!

So y9ou deny Jesus is to return in the flesh to establish His Kingdom here on earth?

 

[nolidad]

Your starting place is off. You need to begin with Jesus' description of the Kingdom as spiritual, and adjust everything to this.

Well there is the physical kingdom which Jesus promised to establish and the spiritual which is the quality of the physical! Remember Jesus is in heaven with a glorified physical body!

 

[Dave L]

Well there is the physical kingdom which Jesus promised to establish and the spiritual which is the quality of the physical! Remember Jesus is in heaven with a glorified physical body!

Where?

 

[Dave L]

In Revelation- only the exhortations to teh 7 actual churches!

So y9ou deny Jesus is to return in the flesh to establish His Kingdom here on earth?

Jesus says so.

 

[nolidad]

This is not inline with Jesus' teachings on the Kingdom.
Please consider the spiritual nature of the Kingdom:

“And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” (Matthew 3:2) (KJV 1900)

“And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.” (Matthew 11:12) (KJV 1900)

“Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.” (Matthew 16:28) (KJV 1900)

“Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.” (1 Corinthians 15:50)

“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” (John 3:3) (KJV 1900)

“Jesus answered, “I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born of water and spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” (John 3:5)

“Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.” (John 18:36) (KJV 1900)

“And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:” (Luke 17:20) (KJV 1900)

“Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.” (Luke 17:21) (KJV 1900)

“But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has already overtaken you.” (Luke 11:20)

“because we are not looking at what can be seen but at what cannot be seen. For what can be seen is temporary, but what cannot be seen is eternal.” (2 Corinthians 4:18)

“Now when the people saw the miraculous sign that Jesus performed, they began to say to one another, “This is certainly the Prophet who is to come into the world.” Then Jesus, because he knew they were going to come and seize him by force to make him king, withdrew again up the mountainside alone.” (John 6:14–15)

“He delivered us from the power of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of the Son he loves,” (Colossians 1:13)

“When Jesus saw that he answered intelligently, He said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And no one dared to question Him any longer.” (Mark 12:34) (HCSB)

“for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit.” (Romans 14:17) (HCSB)

“I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.” Revelation 1:9 (NASB95)

Well you do forgert that until the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit in Matthew 12, Jesus went around offering the prophesied kingdom to the nation of Israel. After the leaders rejected jesus- He spoke of the mystery form of the kingdom. But the fact that Jesus will return to earth is without ambiguity in Scripture!

Matt.24:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Acts1:

 

[nolidad]

Where?

Well He will be headquartered in Jerusalem but His kingdom will be the whole earth!

REv. 19:
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Teh minor prophets are loaded with prophesies of the Messiahs kingdom on earth. REvelation just adds how long---1,000 years!

 

[Dave L]

Well He will be headquartered in Jerusalem but His kingdom will be the whole earth!

REv. 19:
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Teh minor prophets are loaded with prophesies of the Messiahs kingdom on earth. REvelation just adds how long---1,000 years!

Jesus reigns on David's throne over all the earth from heavenly Jerusalem above. Since the crucifixion. Jesus IS Israel, and the land of Israel = the entire earth.

 

[nolidad]

Only if you ignore the fact that the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order, and the symbolic nature of Revelation chapter 20.

The time of the judgment of the dead, and reward, and destruction is found in the verse below.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which
destroy the earth.

Do you think a spirit being like Satan can be bound with a steel chain, like one from the hardware store?

Mar_5:4 Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him.

.

And of course your side has the secret code to understand the chronological order and found outside of Scripture the meaning of the symbols! I have heard this many times with the cults.

Rev. 11:18 is in the 2nd aorist active indicative. It is not focused on time but on action. And you also forget that the word wrath- always refers to the 70 th week of Daniel and not the lake of fire!

Who besides you said Stan is bound with a steel chain? Whether that chain is symbolic or a litreral spiritual kind of chain will be found out!

Jude 6: 6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

I don't care a whit what kind of chains- but that they are in chains.

δεσμόν desmón, des-mon'; neuter and masculine respectively from G1210; a band, i.e. ligament (of the body) or shackle (of a prisoner); figuratively, an impediment or disability:—band, bond, chain, string.

 

[Dave L]

And of course your side has the secret code to understand the chronological order and found outside of Scripture the meaning of the symbols! I have heard this many times with the cults.

Rev. 11:18 is in the 2nd aorist active indicative. It is not focused on time but on action. And you also forget that the word wrath- always refers to the 70 th week of Daniel and not the lake of fire!

Who besides you said Stan is bound with a steel chain? Whether that chain is symbolic or a litreral spiritual kind of chain will be found out!

Jude 6: 6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

I don't care a whit what kind of chains- but that they are in chains.

δεσμόν desmón, des-mon'; neuter and masculine respectively from G1210; a band, i.e. ligament (of the body) or shackle (of a prisoner); figuratively, an impediment or disability:—band, bond, chain, string.

Chains bind spirit?

 

[nolidad]

Jesus says so.

Says so what? That He will or will not return? YOur answer is too ambiguous

 

[Dave L]

Says so what? That He will or will not return? YOur answer is too ambiguous

“Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.” 1 John 3:2 (KJV 1900)

 

[nolidad]

Chains bind spirit?

Why not? they are some sort of binding agent! What form they take is unknown, but I don't doubt this to be literal. And chains is English- the greek is desmon and simply means to be bound!

 

[nolidad]

“Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.” 1 John 3:2 (KJV 1900)

Let me be more directr then.

Do you believe Jesus is physically coming back to earth? Yes or No! YOu know what I am asking.

 

[Dave L]

Why not? they are some sort of binding agent! What form they take is unknown, but I don't doubt this to be literal. And chains is English- the greek is desmon and simply means to be bound!

The angel = Greek for messenger

the chain = the message (gospel); The gospel sent to the whole world.

the 1000 years = Satan bound from deceiving the elect. The saints rule over him. the 1000 years end = Satan loosed.

Note the 1000 years are not the kingdom. It is still here when the 1000 years end. Satan attacks the kingdom when they end and he is loosed.

Satan loosed = the Post Christian era (we now live in = immanent return of Christ) the gospel message falls on deaf ears, the world assails the Church from all quarters ushering in the end.

“Jesus said, “This voice has not come for my benefit but for yours. Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out.” (John 12:30–31)

So in essence, Revelation 20 is a panorama of the entire New Covenant era. Not a physical kingdom of the future.

 

[Dave L]

Let me be more directr then.

Do you believe Jesus is physically coming back to earth? Yes or No! YOu know what I am asking.

Yes, but not as you would have it.

 

[nolidad]

The angel = Greek for messenger

the chain = the message (gospel); The gospel sent to the whole world.

the 1000 years = Satan bound from deceiving the elect. The saints rule over him. the 1000 years end = Satan loosed.

Note the 1000 years are not the kingdom. It is still here when the 1000 years end. Satan attacks the kingdom when they end and he is loosed.

Satan loosed = the Post Christian era (we now live in = immanent return of Christ) the gospel message falls on deaf ears, the world assails the Church from all quarters ushering in the end.

“Jesus said, “This voice has not come for my benefit but for yours. Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out.” (John 12:30–31)

So in essence, Revelation 20 is a panorama of the entire New Covenant era. Not a physical kingdom of the future.

Not really is it still teh kingdom! Jesus stops reigning after the kingdom is finished with the great white throne!

1 Corinthians 15:24-28 King James Version (KJV)
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

 

[nolidad]

Yes, but not as you would have it.

Would you have it like the watchtower where He sneaks in and rules as an invisible spirit creature????

 

[nolidad]

So in essence, Revelation 20 is a panorama of the entire New Covenant era. Not a physical kingdom of the future.

Revelation 20
Revelation 20 King James Version (KJV)
20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

So Satan was bound from Pentecost till whenever you have figured out He will be loosed again? Wow.

Somebody should have let Pewter and paul know they both warned us about Satan prowling around looking to destroy. but then again they were not amillenial. Thjey were expecting God to keep His word and give a physical kingdom here on earth with Messiah regining, just as it is propheisied legions of times in the OT.

But being an amillenialist- I suspect y0u hold to a form of covenant theology and also hold to a more allegorical interpretation of Scripture! It do appear that way from your answers.