Did we miss our turn somewhere?

Brian Mcnamee said:

Hi Dave if there is no gap what is Hosea 3 talking about? 4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred pillar, without ephod or teraphim. 5 Afterward the children of Israel shall return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They shall fear the LORD and His goodness in the latter days.
Note the return of the kingdom occurs when the sacrifice returns after many years without. So this does not fit 70AD. The gap idea has the abomination of desolation as future in the middle of the week. From the time the sacrifice is taken away their are 42 months to go. To go until what? It seems the 2 Thes 2 says the end won't occur until the man of sin is revealed with lying signs and wonders. He stands in the temple and exalts himself as god. Rev gives 42 month for the beast to reign and he and this guy in 2 Thess are destroyed by the coming of the LORD. So modern Israel has gone many days without a sacrifice and the return of the sacrifice could serve as the stage for the man of sin in 2 thess also the beast in Rev 13. This fits. If you maintain the LORD is already king over the earth it does not match Zech 14 Dan 7 show the kingdom comes when Israel is saved from utter destruction by the coming of the LORD. 70AD Israel was destroyed not saved so again an apparent contradiction to your view. If you will to dispute please resolve these contradiction I have pointed out rather than retracing covenant theology roots.

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jamesbond007 said:

Scripture states, "
24 i“Seventy weeks3 are decreed about your people and jyour holy city, to finish kthe transgression, to put an end to sin, land to atone for iniquity, mto bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and nto anoint a most holy place.4 25 oKnow therefore and understand that pfrom the going out of the word to restore and qbuild Jerusalem to the coming of an ranointed one, a sprince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again5 with squares and moat, tbut in a troubled time. 26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall ube cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come vshall destroy the city and the sanctuary. wIts6 end shall come with a flood, xand to the end there shall be war. yDesolations are decreed. 27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week,7 and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. zAnd on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until athe decreed end is poured out on the desolator.” Daniel 9:24-27

This is a difficult verse, but my understanding is the gap comes after an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. This is supposed to be the crucifixion which happened in 30 AD. Thus, we are almost 2000 years into the gap now.


What about Jerusalem and Israel? Look at what's happened to it since that time. Some Jews believe Jesus is not the Messiah because all they got was war, death, destruction, and being displaced if they survived. Throughout its 3000+ years history, Jerusalem has been destroyed and rebuilt up to 40 times. When archaeologists first began excavating in the city, they were surprised to discover layer after layer of rubble, indicating that parts of Jerusalem had been destroyed at least 40 times. Watch from 22:04 until the Jewish people return to Israel to start the prophecies again.

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nolidad said:

Yep that is one of his titles. But He is antichrist before we recognize him as such! As Satans son he is endowed with miraculous abilities as shown in Thess. and Revelation.

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Brian Mcnamee said:

Dave I asked you a question and pointed out contradictions in your view and kindly asked you to address them and in a debate you would not have refuted these contradictions. In fact i did note that there is support for the gap theory based on the beast having 42 months when he gains power which would be the middle of the week if there were a gap. 2 Thess shows the man of sin revealed is destroyed by the coming of the LORD. Hosea's gap of being many days without a sacrifice as the sign of the return of the kingdom is again a sign for the return of the kingdom. This contradiction and the others I point out support the gap idea and current events have the momentum and preparation for the 3rd temple coming in the near horizon. You sound like Noah's neighbors seeing the ark and not understanding the significance of it. The 3rd temple is coming and it is screaming the man of sin is going to be revealed in it. I also noted that Jerusalem and Israel are saved at the coming of the LORD from destruction and in your view the opposite happens. There is great evidence that the gap is there and we are seeing the 70th week lining up right now.

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Brian Mcnamee said:

In Acts 1 6 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. The throne of David is not in heaven.
For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

Jesus rules on earth for 1000 years those who rule with him are the saved who are raised up. The rest of the dead did not live again until the 1000 years is over and one last temptation offered. Then everyone who's name is in the lambs book of life will get into the new Jerusalem. Flesh and blood did not make it buy spirit filled believers do. Zech 14 shows the LORD being declared king over all the earth and on that day he melts the enemies and it says the nations which are left must come to Jerusalem to keep the feast of tabernacles or they get no rain. This is a clear continuation of events on earth after the LORD has come. It says the Mt of Olives will split creating a valley and a new river which flows year round. This is a day when it is dark in the daytime and light and night. They will say the LORD is one in that day and this is the Joseph moment for Israel when they see Jesus having come exactly as Dan 7 described the kingdom being give to one like a glorified son of man while a pompous one is trying to destroy them. This is the exact hand in the glove deliverance I pointed out in Luke one where Israel is saved both spiritually and physically.
The prophecy of beating the swords into plowshares and the spears into pruning hooks begins the day the LORD is king and the 1000 years will be a reign of righteousness and peace. psalm 72 speaks of the millennium which cannot be the new heaven as this speaks of his borders mentioning seas and we knwo there are no seas in the new heaven. Rev Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.

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Brian Mcnamee said:

I ask you questions pointing out specific contradictions and you have never answered one of them. You raise questions to my point of view and I answer them in detail and then raise more questions that show contradictions to your view and you never resolve any of them. You maintain that I am using the wrong lens and I suggest that you have the wrong lens and use the contradictions as evidence and also how current events against all mathematical odds have lined up exactly as a literal interpretation suggest. The notion of being led into a doctrine is where you have built your fort and seeing no significance to the 3rd temple coming which if Dan 9 did speak of a gap what an amazing thing that he prophesied from Babylon while Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed and he details there return and coming of the messiah and the 2nd destruction of both Jerusalem and the temple and if there is a gap he saw all the way to the 3rd temple. The 1800 years with no Israel and no sacrifice and now there is Israel and the sacrifice is returning. That is what Hosea said. In debate arguments not countered are scored as direct hits and your refusal to address direct questions you would lose clearly by the rules of scoring in debate. I maintain that every word of God will come to pass and Robert Whitehall is one of the guys who has led you into this wind of doctrine. In Acts when the LORD spoke with the two disciples on the road and showed them every place it was mentioned of Him so too will the 2nd coming and the millennium where every passage will indeed be fulfilled.

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Brian Mcnamee said:

Dave I grasp the view I just reject it and have made a decent brief case as to why. I will send you a text saying "told you so" every day for a thousand years lol.

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Revealing Times said:

No knock on you good sir, but this is where people take "WRONG TURNS" and go down rabbit holes. People don't study the word and its seeming contradictions hard enough. If things appear to contradict, study the root words, God is never wrong, we are as humans in error most of the time.

The word "SHORTLY" has two numbers behind it, meaning it was not really one word but two in the Greek, or it took two Greek words to describe what the KJV Translators translated in one word. Shortly is not wrong in and of itself, it's our understanding of even that meaning that has evolved over 100's of years, like gay in the 30's meant happy, today, sadly, most see it as a Homosexual.

Original King James Bible {1611 version with Strongs}

Revelation 1:1 ¶ The Reuelation 602 of Iesus 2424 Christ, 5547 which 3739 God 2316 gaue 1325 z5656 vnto him, 846 to shewe 1166 z5658 vnto his y846 x848 seruants 1401 things which 3739 must 1163 z5748 shortly 1722 5034 come to passe; 1096 z5635 and 2532 he sent 649 z5660 and signified 4591 z5656 [it] by 1223 his y846 x848 Angel 32 vnto his y846 x848 seruant 1401 Iohn, 2491

SHORTLY {Greek meaning}
1722 = EN which means, a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state)
—Strong's (Greek Dictionary of the New Testament)

5034 = TACHOS which means 1) quickness, speed
—Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)

From the same as G5036; a brief space (of time), that is, (with G1722 prefixed) in haste:— + quickly, + shortly, + speedily.
—Strong's (Greek Dictionary of the New Testament)

So SHORTLY doesn't mean it will come to pass shortly, it means FAST, the Greek word TACHOS is where we get the English word tachometer from, so what does Jesus mean when he says shortly here in verse 1 ?

Well EN means at a FIXED point in time {no one knows but the Father remember ? } Jesus will return {when the Father sends him} and when that happens Jesus will come IN HASTE or SPEEDILY, or in a BRIEF BLINK OF AN EYE, or in a SHORT BURST OF TIME {SHORTLY}. The Strong Concordance tells us what it means, Speedily, Quickly, in Haste, in a Brief space of time. It doesn't mean SOON in our lives, it means when Jesus returns, at a FIXED POINT IN TIME.....It will happen with a BOOM, BOOM, BOOM, here I am, you see, God/Jesus are everywhere in reality, it will probably just take a thought or command and Jesus will be here within a second or two.

So to those who go down these wrong paths, if something seems contradictory, don't base your whole eschatology on an uncertainty, study your root words.

So no, Jesus never said he was coming shortly, he said when he comes he would do so SPEEDILY or in haste.

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Revealing Times said:

I have been a preacher for 30 years and the book of Revelation is part of my calling. Dodging they answer because you can't answer doesn't make your eschatology problem go away sir. Think about it, God sends us truths, its up to us to accept them or go our own way. I have had to change MY UNDERSTANDINGS a lot of times, it simply means God has all the answers and we don't, thus God is teaching us. God Bless.

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