Did mind–body dualism exist before original sin?

[timothyu]

Why point out only vanity? That doesn't add up.

Of what purpose is a vessel body to God if it is only intent upon itself?

 

[pittsburghjoe]

No, because this makes sense now:
Does "For our sake he made him to be sin" mean Jesus was made in a way that could interact with this fallen reality?

 

[timothyu]

Does "For our sake he made him to be sin" mean Jesus was made in a way that could interact with this fallen reality?

Interaction is for man's benefit. They cannot as a rule see beyond themselves or their universe. Jesus was a visible entity who was opposite to the self serving nature of man and did nothing of his own accord but only the will of the Father as originally intended for man. Mankind is to be creative but not authoritative. It is funny how man will rebel against living under the authority of God, yet have no problems living under the authority of fellow man.

 

[Jamdoc]

Maybe you need me to post it again:
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

1 Corinthians 15:50

and yet in his flesh Job will see God.
and Jesus is resurrected in flesh.

It is a different body but it is still tangible and still has flesh, maybe it doesn't have blood?
But it has flesh and it has bone.

 

[pittsburghjoe]

and yet in his flesh Job will see God.
and Jesus is resurrected in flesh.

It is a different body but it is still tangible and still has flesh, maybe it doesn't have blood?
But it has flesh and it has bone.

Are you suggesting that Jesus and Elijah are floating around outer space? Of course there is point where they transition over to God's Kingdom.

 

[timothyu]

It is a different body but it is still tangible and still has flesh, maybe it doesn't have blood?
But it has flesh and it has bone.

Actually it would need to be a different world not built upon opposites as out universe is, or built in a way so as to not create divide and opposition.

 

[ViaCrucis]

They had one good idea ..that doesn't mean I have to be in their religion to consider what physicality means.

The rejection of the innate goodness of the physical, material creation is a rejection of the good Creator God who declared all things "exceedingly good". It is a rejection of our very salvation, of the Good News that God became man, uniting Himself with our humanity--body, mind, soul, the whole of it--in order to redeem this world and all who are in it. That by His dying and rising He defeats the power of sin, death, hell, and the devil and by our union to Him by grace our union to His victory over death and the peace with God we now have. Which we have now through faith, and in hope of that Day when Christ returns, the dead are raised bodily and immortal, incorruptible, and the renewal of all creation.

That is the Christian religion.

What you are suggesting is the wholesale denial of Jesus Christ and His Gospel.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Are you suggesting that Jesus and Elijah are floating around outer space? Of course there is point where they transition over to God's Kingdom.

God's kingdom is not "somewhere up there" it's not another dimension, it's not a place. It's the reality that God is King of the Universe, and the reign and dominion of God has manifest, been inaugurated, through the coming of the Messiah, Jesus. The Messianic rule of our Lord Jesus by His death, resurrection, ascension, and reigning even now at the right hand of the Father in glory from whence He shall come again to raise the dead and deliver all things over to the Father.

He has said, "The kingdom does not come with observation, no one can say, 'Look, here it is' or 'Look, over there'. The kingdom is in your midst." (Luke 17:20-21) How was the kingdom in their midst? In Himself: The kingdom was there in the Incarnate Person of Jesus Christ. And that very and same kingdom is the kingdom that shall come in fullness at His return, when God makes all things new.

Which is why we pray, "Our Father in heaven, hallowed be Your name, Your kingdom come, Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven"

When our Lord ascended and "come into His kingdom" (Matthew 16:28), it isn't because the kingdom of God is a place; it's that Christ "sat at the right hand of majesty" (Hebrews 1:3). And so He reigns, as King of kings and Lord of lords, for He has said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given unto Me" (Matthew 28:18).

He is the Risen Christ, the Lord, seated at the right hand of the Father with all power and authority. Who reigns and rules, and who will come again--and bring with Him this everlasting kingdom. So that as the Prophets of old have said, "For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord as the waters cover the sea." (Habakkuk 2:14).

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

1 Corinthians 15:50

Which is why the body must be transformed, not from physical to non physical. But from corruptible to incorruptible. This flesh must rise, not as it is now, but flesh transformed by grace and the Spirit. As St. Paul says in Philippians, that at our Lord's coming He will transform our lowly body to be like His glorious body (Philippians 3:21).

"Flesh and blood" refers to our current mortal, fallen, corruptible state.

After all, Christ very much was flesh and blood and bone when He ascended and sits and reigns as King and Lord over the kingdom, as He Himself testifies to His disciples, "Touch Me and see, a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have" (Luke 24:39).

-CryptoLutheran

 

[pittsburghjoe]

God's kingdom is not "somewhere up there" it's not another dimension, it's not a place. It's the reality that God is King of the Universe, and the reign and dominion of God has manifest, been inaugurated, through the coming of the Messiah, Jesus. The Messianic rule of our Lord Jesus by His death, resurrection, ascension, and reigning even now at the right hand of the Father in glory from whence He shall come again to raise the dead and deliver all things over to the Father.

He has said, "The kingdom does not come with observation, no one can say, 'Look, here it is' or 'Look, over there'. The kingdom is in your midst." (Luke 17:20-21) How was the kingdom in their midst? In Himself: The kingdom was there in the Incarnate Person of Jesus Christ. And that very and same kingdom is the kingdom that shall come in fullness at His return, when God makes all things new.

Which is why we pray, "Our Father in heaven, hallowed be Your name, Your kingdom come, Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven"

When our Lord ascended and "come into His kingdom" (Matthew 16:28), it isn't because the kingdom of God is a place; it's that Christ "sat at the right hand of majesty" (Hebrews 1:3). And so He reigns, as King of kings and Lord of lords, for He has said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given unto Me" (Matthew 28:18).

He is the Risen Christ, the Lord, seated at the right hand of the Father with all power and authority. Who reigns and rules, and who will come again--and bring with Him this everlasting kingdom. So that as the Prophets of old have said, "For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord as the waters cover the sea." (Habakkuk 2:14).

-CryptoLutheran

You dodged the point. Jesus ascended ..that physical body had to turn to waves to get into God's Kingdom.

 

[ViaCrucis]

You dodged the point. Jesus ascended ..that physical body had to turn to waves to get into God's Kingdom.

No. Your pushing of quantum woo and demonstrable lack of understanding over quantum mechanics is irrelevant as it pertains to theology and matters of Christian faith.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[pittsburghjoe]

No. Your pushing of quantum woo and demonstrable lack of understanding over quantum mechanics is irrelevant as it pertains to theology and matters of Christian faith.

-CryptoLutheran

Well ..explain it then. There was a physical body ..and now there isn't.

 

[pittsburghjoe]

Weird how Jesus became light waves to cause the Shroud of Turin.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Well ..explain it then. There was a physical body ..and now there isn't.

Jesus' body is still physical.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[pittsburghjoe]

He isn't physical here in this fallen reality right now. He got to God's Kingdom somehow. This entire thread is saying we were waves before original sin ..hmm, maybe God's Kingdom is waves. You are not getting that waves can be just as real when not in this reality.

 

[ViaCrucis]

He isn't physical here in this fallen reality right now. He got to God's Kingdom somehow. This entire thread is saying we were waves before original sin ..hmm, maybe God's Kingdom is waves. You are not getting that waves can be just as real when not in this reality.

He is physical because He's human. Nobody is saying that Jesus is literally sitting on a chair somewhere up out in outer space. But He very much is physical, He has flesh and bone, muscle and tissue. We eat and drink His actual flesh and blood every time we celebrate the Eucharist.

He didn't "got to God's Kingdom", He ascended into heaven--He has all power and authority in heaven and on earth as the risen and exalted Lord and King. The kingdom isn't a place, it's the royal power and authority of God as King. Jesus spoke of the basileia of God. The word basileia is the power of the basileus, the king or ruler. God's basileia, His kingdom, is the fact that He is King.

We were not "waves". That isn't how quantum mechanics works. Wave-particle duality isn't some mystical woo. It's that particles behave both as particles and as waves. When quantum mechanics speaks of observation, it refers simply to the act of measurement.

All particles in the universe right now express wave-particle duality, because quantum mechanics describes our observations of the very small right here and now.

There is no such thing as "existing as waves"--particles exhibit both particle and wave behaviors, that's the duality in wave-particle duality.

I'm not a physicist, but literally all it takes to know this is to do a basic Google search.

No, God's kingdom is not "waves". That's word salad.

Of course waves are real, we observe particles behaving as waves. That's the whole thing about the double slit experiment.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[pittsburghjoe]

No, we can not observe waves ..what we observe is what they are after they completed their wave propagation. Observing a wave after it is done doesn't change what it was during the flight.

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1 Corinthians 15:50

Is anyone getting the hint that physicality isn't in Heaven for humans that are not Jesus?

If we don't have a physical body in Heaven, why would we have one before original sin? If physicality is what allows sin to happen, why would it be possible in Heaven?

You know how people with near death experiences can account for themselves in Heaven? Do you think they are physical when their body is temporarily dead on Earth?

Does "For our sake he made him to be sin" mean Jesus was made in a way that could interact with this fallen reality?

2 Corinthians 5:21

Does it mean something that Jesus used light waves to make the Shroud of Turin?

Greed and Lust won't be a thing anymore in Heaven ..right? Well, how is that possible if there are still physical objects?

This physical place is sin. That is why it is possible right now.

The fall put us in this physical place ..why would we have the original sin in Heaven? Why would the choice be right there when Jesus already dealt with it for us?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Weird how Jesus became light waves to cause the Shroud of Turin.

That is such an extraordinary leap to make, especially since the Shroud of Turin is almost certainly not Christ's actual burial shroud. And even if it were, this explanation is utterly fanciful.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Does "For our sake he made him to be sin" mean Jesus was made in a way that could interact with this fallen reality?

No. It means He was crucified for our sins.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[pittsburghjoe]

In Quantum Physics, Even Humans Act As Waves

link via
WaterSong